First Weasel

Excellent use of Suckitude.

UVA was robbed the douche contest.

- Duke Law Alum

You might wanna watch out that window, Larry.

Congratulations on defending a lot of 2Ls who want to screw over their classmates by putting something on their resume that they don't actually participate in. Really fine journalism.

What a bunch of sear-sucker-wearing asshats.

Love,

09 Tier4 graduate with non-deferred biglaw job with all six--count 'em, six--figures.

I thought the UVA Honor Code was: "On my honor, I pledge that I have neither given nor received help on this assignment."

I think the moot court board is a pretty cool guy. eh acts like a total faggot and doesnt afraid of anything

This may be Ellie's best post yet.

I agree with #3. Who cares about moot court teams anyway?

Please please someone from uva out the person who sent that email

6. I'm not defending 2Ls who lie on their resume. I'm saying resume liars will get caught in the due course of time. I'm questioning why certain 3Ls think they are empowered to "spot check" any resume other than their own.
--Elie

I agree with #3.

Who cares about moot court teams anyway?

Dbags at UVA?!

subtle walter sobcheck reference. +1 to Elie,

Good post -- what a bunch of d-bags. If you drop out of the Moot Court competition at my school it's potentially an honor code violation, but basically you just have to explain why you were dropping out and then you might not be able to compete in the next one. They would never oull this crap.

This has been the rule in the Lile competition since time immemorial. And what exactly is wrong with it? We're not going to let you tell employers you did Moot Court if you did not actually do Moot Court. I fail to see what is either douchey or controversial about that.

8-

It is. But thanks to the pompous jerks at the Honor Committee, that credo somehow now applies to every second of every day at UVa, meaning that stealing a pack of gum from the bookstore could get you expelled, as could lying in virtually any context. What a lovely place.

And given the names I see on the Moot Court board's leadership list, I'm not terribly surprised at assholish, pompous, douchey behavior. One of them in particular strikes me as one of the most arrogant people at UVa.

4, I still don't know how we didn't win either.

-UVA 3L, trying hard not to look like a douche with this pink sweater tied around my neck over my 4 popped collars

I'm assuming this is a competition to get on the team in the first place (other wise 240 2Ls on the team is HUGE). So just because they compete doesn't mean it's on their resume. . .

Hell, I ran a moot court competition for a T14 school. We had people drop out for all sorts of reasons (personal, didn't feel like writing the brief, etc). It's expected and really not a big deal.

Put on your big girl panties and deal with it!

something about what happens when you fuck a stranger in the ass?

Why would 2Ls have it on their resume anyways that they "participated in crappy intramural moot court competition"? Their resumes got sent back in August before they ever participated so anyone that had it was just stupid anyways - "signed up to participate in crappy intramural moot court competition" doesn't quite have the ring with employers these days. Besides anyone that thinks "participated" in any law school competition matters at all is fooling themselves. The only things that matter is 1) made law review 2) WON a competition (finalist if it is over 50 students competing). If you don't win you shouldn't put it on the resume. So 3Ls should calm the F down. Employers don't care.

The people running moot court have been the douchiest of the douches for years. This e-mail is not that out of line with e-mails alum from past years received as well.

Think about this. This competition ends just before graduation (it's a two-year competition). That means the 3Ls who are judging have already been eliminated, before the competition even got to its second year.

Is this really who should be judging the competition? Apparently not.

18

The controversy is not the rule per se, but it is the fact that 3Ls--STUDENTS--would contact employers about this. If it were an issue that the law school felt that it should take up, get the administration involved and let them handle external matters. On second thought, I'd love to hear the conversation with the firm when your students are tattle-tailing on other students.

someone call the IRS and make sure 18 reported his income last year. I mean, we're not gonna let you not pay taxes, and I'm sure us calling the IRS just to inquire about you wouldn't cause you any problems at all as long as you did report correctly....

18, read 13.

This was the rule when I went through UVA Law, and everyone knows this upfront. Don't put Moot Court on your resume if you're just going to back out. The e-mail was douchey, but who's the bigger douche: The guy/girl who lies on his resume, or the guy/girl who calls him on it?

“I fail to see what is either douchey or controversial about that.”

LOL. What a surprise that douches are too unaware to recognize how douchey they are.

I agree with this post 100%. In times like these, it is particularly tempting to become angry at those who are perceived to be getting an unfair advantage. E.g., the Board members are terrified that 2Ls who don't have the kudos they have -- actual participation in moot court -- will nonetheless get the advantage of having that on their resume. But even if you think someone else is "cheating," (and I think that is an outrageous stretch of a characterization on these facts), suck it up and trust in karma.
I'm glad the Board got called out here. Pathetic move on their part.

@20: No, the Lile competition is basically a service Lile Board does so that the school does so that any 2L who wants to participate in Moot Court has the opportunity to do so. Those ten board members spent their entire 3L years grading those 200+ briefs, supervising oral arguments, and other administrative niceties. Of course they're going to be pissed off if someone lies about participating.

UVA does have extramural Moot Court teams, but it's a separate tryout process. And like the Lile competition, if you don't do it, you're not allowed to tell employers that you DID do it.

The bitterness shared by all current 3Ls stems from them missing out on the best time to practice law. I am, of course, referring to the golden age of biglaw -- the 19-fucking-80's.

Back then, as young associates, we would have access to (i) 24 hour shoe shiners; (ii) gorgeous women who would wait outside our office building and practically beg us for mind-blowing sex; (iii) unlimited budgets for lunches; (iv) Rolex watches upon the closing of every $10,000,000 deal; (v) dealer pricing on DeLoreans; and, of course, (vi) all the top-quality cocaine we could possibly want.

We all had trophy wives by 26 and homes in the hamptons by 29.

Fuck, this decade is beyond depressing.

Elie or any UVa Law student:

How in the hell do they know the list of firms to which you applied? If anything, it makes sense to update the resume for a call back, but who cares about your failures? If you were dinged by a firm, why would you ever contact them to discuss this bullshit?

28, the latter

28: the latter.

Who cares about UVA--it's a dump of a law school.

28:

They're equally douchey, which makes UVA a veritable smorgasbord of douchiness.

Elie, I take back everything bad I said about you. This is one damn fine post. I'll fedex some Shipley Donuts your way...

24: right on. Of course you shouldn't put something on your resume if not true, but it is not the job of other students to police that. Moreover, it's not clear that there is an affirmative obligation to correct a resume that was true when submitted but became un-true through later events.

28 -- the guy/girl who calls him on it is a WAY bigger douche

Did it occur to anyone that the "concerns about compliance" might have come from OTHER 2Ls and not from the 3Ls on the Board?

The douchebags speak for themselves. If you need me, I'll be in my van DOWN BY THE RIVER!

It wouldn't take much research to figure out that UVA - the whole university - takes their honor code incredibly seriously and one of its supposed requirements is that you must report the wrongdoing of others or become culpable yourself. Yes, I think that's stupid, but it would provide some context here.

I am concerned that some UVa 2Ls might be stating on their resumes that they're black when they actually are not, so I'm going to be calling all the employers to make sure that they know the list of real blacks.
We're not going to let you tell employers you're black when you actually are not. What's so douchey or controversial about that?

-- UVa 3L

Give the board a break. I mean, it could be a long time before these UVA 3Ls get to talk to someone at a big law firm again.

Hey UVA 3L's on the Moot Court Board -

Shut the Fuck Up.

No one cares what you think.

Signed,

The Rest of the World.

Then narc on the specific student who is lying on his or her resume, 28. Don't do random "spot checks" of students who have not necessarily done anything wrong.

Also, how would the 3Ls on the Moot Court board even know who the 2Ls' employers are? And what authorizes them to discuss this information regarding a third party? If a student called my law firm just to confirm what's on another student's resume, the caller would be told to fuck off posthaste.

I've interviewed hundreds of students for my law firm and I can't recall ever noticing or caring that someone had moot court on their resume. Elie was right: this is the height of petty douchiness.

I find myself underwhelmed with concern for the poor 2Ls. Sorry, kiddies, but you'll end up working in an environment where heavy-handed behavior is the norm. If you can't handle that, don't bother applying at my firm.

Thank you, ATL, for highlighting the general douchiness of insecure, prestige-obsessed, gunnerish "mooters."

@38: There is an affirmative obligation to correct one's resume if you withdraw from Lile. It's right there in the packet. And it has been for years now.

Whatever. If this kind of info is so easy to get at UVA, the 2Ls should just call the 3Ls potential employers to check up on their resumes as well.

42 - wrong. Toleration is no longer required by the Honor Code at UVA.

WestPoint is one of the few schools that still requires such ridiculousness.

#1

"I have never heard of this school . . . PLEASE create a separate site for small-time schools."

???

UVA is a top ten law school?

if you've never heard of it, then you're not intelligent enough to be so pretentious

Who really cares about Moot Court? It's for students with no friends.

As someone who ran a 1L moot court competition my 3L year, I can say that it never, not once, crossed my mind to remind people that did not participate to not put it on their resume. Perhaps I was thinking, and logically so, that the vast majority of employers could give two shits about intra-school moot court competition experience, short of one winning it all and being awarded best speaker. And even if they did care, the employer would likely discover, before I had a chance to spot-check the resume, that the person in question was a douche.

I was never university material, but I have read that this kind of behavior is interference with prospective economic advantage and invasion of privacy. 3L's on a moot court board aren't legally entitled to talk to employers about what is in a 2L's employment file. If they are too stupid to understand this, then they don't belong in law school in the first place.

Rock and Roll.

Does any firm really give a tin shit if you've been on Moot Court or not?

Note to self. Don't sign up for moot court or some angry asshole may randomly call my potential employer (even if I withdraw it or never even included it on my resume in the first place, unless that info is also held by these all knowing 3Ls)

Apparently I need to update my resume. People put down the fact that they participated in moot court? You can participate in moot court by 1/2 assing a brief and then rolling into the first round drunk.

Also, if all you did was participate but not advance doesn't it suggest that you were not particularly good at oral argument?

Wow this really sucks for the person who signed up for the competition, withdrew for whatever reason (there ARE legitimate reasons), didn't submit an updated resume (who the hell would??), and is lucky enough to have an interview this fall. Some big law associate is going to read this post and ask a UVA 2L about it.

Some jealous D-bags at Hofstra tried to tell me I wasn't really Magna because had the top people not transferred out of Hofstra after 1L, I would have never graduated Magna. They are douches and these guys at UVA are douches.

UVA Moot Court Board: http://www.uvamootcourt.org/board.html

So you're saying I should have taken TTT secondary journal rather than moot court?

As a BigLaw associate, I would just like to state that having moot court on your resume is about as useful in an interview as listing sight reading music as a hobby (true effing story). You're a tool no matter how you slice it.

Nicely done UVA. You got SHAFTED in the Douchiest Law School Award department.

53 - You're a moron.

- UVA 2L

@57 - No.

#1 -- you know UVA is a top ten. your comment is only a sign of insecurity and immaturity. if you do go to a better law school, then why do you feel the need to bash other schools? shouldn't the fact that you attend that law school speak for itself?

Wow. The folks threatening their fellow students should be expelled for being such over the top a-holes that they bring disrepute to the school.

I know I, for one, will be disinclined to hire any interviewing UVA grads going forward if this is the kind of people that go there, and will certainly ding any and all from the UVA class of 2010.

@62: so if ten of them are "power-hungry douchey 3Ls," what are the other 6?

ERNIE ANASTOS LIED TO US ALL!!!!!! HE DOES NOT SUPPORT THE POULTRY INDUSTRY!!!!!!

Wow. The Matt Foley shtick is amazingly unfunny. Give it up.

Floren, Dallas, Dean, Wells - really? Who the hell goes to this school? (Okay, Floren is kinda cool, but Wells, really?! as a first name?!).

Hey, we tried. As an UVA Law alum, I voted for UVA Law for top douche all the way through. People, believe me, this story surprises me not in the least. It is typical.

UVA Law douches: other douches --->

PhD in biochemistry:owns an "ages 4 and up" chemistry set

#64 is my hero.

Douches I went to school with listed judicial internships as being a "law clerk."

Oh, and I want to have babies.

-Loretta

The threat, certainly a total dick move, is actually pretty empty. First off, I highly doubt that UVA Career Services would give the moot court people a list of firms to which a withdrawn participant applied/interviewed with on campus. Second, at this stage of the game career services wouldn't even have info on where a student is doing / has done call backs vs. where they got dinged (there is, of course, no point or requirement that you notify employer's you've been dinged by).

Somebody's bitter they didn't make law review or that they washed out of the moot court in first or second round of the competition (rounds 3-5 are run 3L year, so the 3Ls on the board must have washed out if they even did the competition to begin with).

1. No one cares about moot court participation. At all. If you win a national competition, maybe. But even then not much.

2. A 3L calling my firm to check whether a 2L took moot court off a resume is the same as that 3L calling and saying, "Hi, I am calling to inform you that I am a total jerk and have terrible judgment to boot." If the Board delegates the calls, I would probably look up the Board members and consider each of them to have made the call. I am close to doing that now.

If you are not courteous, reasonable and professional, or I do not want you here.

-V10 partner

73 that was lame

52 - You're clearly not a grad, so STFU.

--West Point Grad

78, you are quite the wit.

Whoever made the decision to send that email sounds like a total jerk. Glad to hear the board is receiving public humiliation.

The North Grounds Softball League called my firm and told them I dropped out from the NGSL. My firm was PISSED.

Seriously, nobody gives a damn about moot court, even if you were a finalist. The only things that matter in law school are grades and law review. Period. Everything is a waste of time (career wise) and just a way for those w/ poor grades and/or no LR to resuscitate their dying legal careers.

Obviously, moot court is fine if you're doing it for fun, but let's not pretend that ANYONE ever, ever got an offer or otherwise enhanced their legal careers partially b/c of moot court.

42 is absolutely correct; while old-fashioned, both UVA and West Point do support and defend an honor code, part of which states that it is a student's duty to report violations of the Code commited by others. No secret, it's right on the web page. However, the committee has stepped into the world of "thoughtcrime" or potential violations of the code. What a bunch of d-bags to assume that those who drop out of Moot Court would not have the wherewithal to change their resumes themselves. Excellent start for your careers in the law; judge first, decide the facts later...

UVa 3L here:

Even all the 3Ls had already heard about this idiotic threat.

2Ls take note: when you run the competition next year, don't be like us. Treat your PEERS with some respect.

These Moot Court Board 3Ls are no longer welcome in the Cabaret. We'll be "spot checking" for them at the door.

4 is correct. UVA = tools.

What a bunch of SPAZZES

63 -- many of these "TTT secondary journals" consistently rank alongside or higher than many of the secondary journals at HLS, Yale, and Columbia. By the way, using the term "TTT" reeks of someone who is still trying to get over the fact that they sat at the lunch table alone in high school.

53, 67

Nice work taking the bait.

And, obviously you shouldn't lie on your resume. But, if you signed up to do moot court, applied for a job, and then later dropped it, it's ethically a good idea to let someone in recruiting know, but your firm isn't going to care anyway. As long as you weren't lying in the first place, no big law firm is going to care enough about moot court participation for it to have any effect on your getting (or probably not getting) an offer.

UVA to 190 d-bags!

I loved one of the follow-up clarification emails:

"You need not inform employers from whom you did not receive a call-back or offer."

hahahaha...

I wrote on my resume that my interest is cooking chinese food. Due to some unexpected circumstances, my interest has changed to cooking French fries. Should I inform the employer about that? Would it be a violation of honor code if I don't?

UVa 2L here:

Not doing moot court and suddenly proud of it. In the words of Bushwick Bill:

"V-I-C-T-O-R-Y, you can't have it; nah-nana-nah-nah."

http://www.uvamootcourt.org/board.html

They say "masthead". ha! LR rejects.

Good post by Elie. His commentary is spot on and funny. I thought UVA was the "chill" place where people played softball and talked about great grandpa's plantation. These idiot 3L's are burning bridges for life.

So 3Ls at Virginia are safeguarding the integrity of the student population. Why is that wrong?

63 -- yes.

I don't understand why anyone would care about who participated in an intraschool competition. Seems like it's about as important as participating in the Health Law Club. Who cares?

53, 67, 74 = same idiot

Here on ATL, there is no reason to say "hey #12, my school is not TTT!" Leave off the pound sign, douche.

This isn't even douchey, its more asshole gunnerish. But yeah, the UVA Moot Court Board sucks at life.

96- They're not safeguarding the integrity at all. The integrity of UVa lies in the ability of the Honor Code to serve its purpose -- that is, self-regulation. The email undermines the entire foundation on which the Honor Code is predicated. I'm embarrassed to be a UVa law student.

The Honor Code dropped its non-toleration clause in the 1970s in the wake of the Vietnam War and the draft. As it stands it is the choice of a student, faculty member, or Charlottesville community member whether or not to report an honor offense.

96- They're not safeguarding the integrity at all. The integrity of UVa lies in the ability of the Honor Code to serve its purpose -- that is, self-regulation. The email undermines the entire foundation on which the Honor Code is predicated. I'm embarrassed to be a UVa law student.

When the news of the douchebaggery off these 3Ls makes it to the db's new employers, any enemies the db's create will have a great time with this story. Very bad judgment indeed.

This post reads WAY too much into the e-mail. The person who sent the e-mail already has a job lined up at a very solid firm. The implication that the 3Ls are trying to submarine the 2Ls' job prospects is a silly conspiracy theory. The e-mail is over the top, but it's trying to solve a real problem, which is that many students put the competition on their resume in time for OCIs and then drop out of the competition once interviews are done. That practice is much lamer than this e-mail, IMO.

I don't think this is so bad? People knew upfront they'd have to call employers if they didn't do Moot Court - it's the same thing if you withdraw from a journal after OCI. But it does sound like they did other over-the-top things like sending people angry all-caps freaking-out emails when they decided they weren't interested any more and didn't turn in their briefs.

Also, the Moot Court deal was retarded here in the first place.
1. We have to put Moot Court on our resumes before the end of OCI (OGI if you're a douche) bidding if we want it on there (which people who aren't on journals do so that they don't look lame). Before we have any idea what it's about or when it will be. At all.
2. We then find out when the first round will be, which turned out to be an incredibly inconvenient time in the middle of callbacks season. It was something like Sept 1-14 to write your brief? We learn this after OCI starts.
3. Then they tell us there's a $50 charge, which a lot of people had to pay and then realized that there was no fucking way they could do Moot Court and deal with job search and classes. People who had it on their resume have to take it off and lose $50.
4. Also, I still have no idea what it's about. I'm just glad it wasn't on my resume.

I actually think the 2Ls should come together and file a lawsuit against the Moot Court Board. for tortious interference with contract. They could seek a preliminary injunction enjoining the Board from making any phone calls and embarass them in the process.

100

You mean you weren't embarrassed to be a UVA Law student before this nonsense?

This makes a lot more sense once you realize that the UVA Moot Court Board drives a Dodge Stratus.

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR SUCH SELF-OBSESSED AND EGOTISTICAL PEOPLE AT TOP-FLIGHT FIRMS LIKE MAYER BROWN, ALBEIT WHOSE FABLED REPUTATION FOR COLLEGIALITY IS UNDER STRESS FROM ITS CALLOUS INDIFFERENCE TO THE PLIGHT OF ITS SUMMERS WHOM ARE YET TO RECEIVE OFFERS.

1. This is an absolutely hilarious story. The MC board needs to calm down and think things through before making threats.

2. LOL at the people poking fun at moot courters - everyone knows that the cool kids do moot court, aka the people that get laid on the weekends and can probably kick some ass physically - the douches do journal and end up as corporate lawyers (ie, people who became lawyers bc they didnt have the balls to go into finance).

79-

Stop being such a toolbag and start the Corps

Further examples of UVA Moot court douchiness: If you were lucky enough to have a callback on the due date, you couldn't email your brief in or have your friend turn in your brief for you. You had to take a penalty - no exceptions.

While I'm all for seeing the reputations of many of the people on the Moot Court board damaged by this email, I would like to point out that a couple of them aren't bad people. Furthermore, many of the rest of the students reacted about as the commenters here have. These are, of course, the people who dropped out of/ never entered Moot Court the previous year due to a preference for drinking and football-watching over voluntary, uncompensated brief-writing.

So, please don't say we're ALL huge douches. Just most of us. Thanks.

UVA 3L

hmmm. UVA is a top 10 school or thereabouts.
And yet there are almost 200 law schools.
I guess everything below top 25 is "untouchable" caste material insofar as the legal media is concerned.

I actually think the 2Ls should come together and file a lawsuit against the Moot Court Board. for tortious interference with contract. They could seek a preliminary injunction enjoining the Board from making any phone calls and embarass them in the process.

awww...come on guys, can't we all just get along? let's just settle this over some mint juleps and a softball game. or perhaps at the horse races this fall?

UVa's career services office strongly encouraged all rising 2Ls to add the Lile competition to their resumes. They even postponed the bidding deadlines for this purpose.

In other words, UVa's CSO panicked over the summer and ordered rising 2Ls to treat moot court as a resume padder. It only makes sense that, at some point, students would have to come clean and admit whether or not they are actually competing. If moot court becomes an empty resume padder, then it loses value for all time.

Interesting to see that the list of the moot court board is online. I'll be sure to take a look at it if any UVA 3L resumes cross my desk.

Oh, and I'd be willing to bet that most attorneys involved in the hiring process really don't care about moot court. I view it as a resume filler for those that didn't make law review.

A couple lawyers posting on this thread make the salient point -- the Lile Moot Court Board's threat is empty and stupid. These 3Ls cannot simply call up employers to discuss other students' resumes and any Board member who does so is seriously jeopardizing his or her professional reputation.

104 -- "lame" is not quite the word for a law student knifing his fellow students in the back by calling their employer to *check* if they reported that they had withdrawn from the moot court competition.

"Treacherous vermin" is the phrase I'd use. These are the kinds of people who'd turn their friends in to the Gestapo/KGB etc. for some minor perceived infraction.

And yeah, UVA was completely robbed in the douchiest law school contest. It's an outrage.

Having had the misjudgment to write on to law journal at Washburn in 1998, this sounds quite familiar. The type of person driven to become an editor of the Washburn Law Review (at least in 1998 - 2000) was generally an unbearable specimen. The less significant the "honor," the douchier the participants, apparently.

And to the a**hole who kept adding the word "moreover" to my note, yes, I still despise you as much as I did at the time. If I was a better person, I would feel sorry for you, but I guess I'm no better than I should be.

As a hiring attorney, if someone called to "tell" me something about another person's resume, the call would quickly get filed away into my "Nigerian Princess Emails" folder.

Someone should call the firms where the board members applied and ask if the board members have added a footnote to their resume about the email they sent and their extreme pettiness.

Finally, Elie, is "blogger" listed on your resume? You should probably take it off; everyone can see through that artistic license.

The most shocking fact, to me, is that 3Ls would presume a potential employer of another student wants to hear from them over something so trivial. Hell, even if they lied about winning a competition, much less participated....

Did they murder someone? Are they a physical threat? Then, yes, call if you have something to substantiate your claim (e.g. a news story, criminal charges...).

If a 3L called me or my firm to say that "that person who says they participated in moot court decided not to do it...so, yeah, they're lying, sort of...in a way...." I would be shocked at the presumptuosness, douchebaggery, and pettiness of the 3L. To put it plainly: it would just piss me off. And I would absolutely ding the 3L if ever I saw his/her resume. There are plenty of qualified 3Ls looking for jobs that I would rather work with.

To those few UVA 3Ls: Your 1st-year experience (should you have one) will be a humbling one for you.

UVA 3L's on the Board should go out and suck down a few shots of cyanide.

If UVA's moot court participants really want to make their moot court experience "shine," they should organize a boycott of the competition and this organization for being so douchey.

--Law review editor who never, ever, had to worry about problems such as these because we knew how to run a goddam organization.

Pretty sure the only reason why this email was sent out by the Chancellor was bc 2Ls were complaining about classmates bragging that they kept it on their resumes after withdrawing. You can thank your douchey 2Ls classmates for whining about this!!!

Unless you planned on putting this on your resume and then not competing, why would you even care about this email? Just delete it... Seems like a stupid story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6TkO2v_jCA

127 = Moot Court Board Douche

Why is this even news? This has been the policy at UVA for a very long time, and I remember getting a similar e-mail 9 years ago.

People can list "Moot Court Participant" on the resume for interviews, with the understanding that they actually have to participate. The same policy applies to journal boards. Every year some jerks get onto journals, get jobs based on listing it on their resume, and then want to back out of doing the actual work. If the policy isn't enforced, listing "Moot Court Participant" on your resume will be worthless, and those that do it instead of a journal will have no significant activities to list.

Elie has reallly f'd up here, and potentially damaged the reputation of the moot court board members that have done nothing more than moot court boards have done before them for the past 9+ years.

An official statement from the school, and an appology from Elie are in order.

I wonder if Ted Kennedy put Lile on his resume?

So, 126, it was the Chancellor?

130 - i'm calling BS. I never heard of the spot check policy, which this post was about . . . started and completed the Law School within the past 9 years.

126-

I call bullshit. No 2Ls were bragging to their friends about lying on their resumes.

130 = Moot Court Board 2L Eating Douche

Only fat, socially-awkward softies do journal.

The drinkers, womanizers and frat stars do moot court.

@110 - I "poke fun at moot courters" b/c they (you) weren't smart enough to make Law Review. As for corporate law, I received much more client contact and negotiating/drafting experience as a young lawyer than my litigation peers stuck in conference rooms doing document review for months on end.

-Corporate lawyer without the balls to go into finance

130

"An official statement from the school, and an appology from Elie are in order."

I just laughed out loud in my office after reading that.

Instead of being on ATL, don't you have to clean up all your douche you're dripping all over the floors?

Then call BS on your friends, bc people definitely complained!

Best. Post. Ever.

136 - frat stars are not in law school. And the fattest chick at my school is on the Moot Court Board.

If I received such a call from one of those 3Ls, I would thank him/her for being so diligent and make certain I had his name correct as I would want to remember it. I would also make certain that he/she never received an interview at our firm. Anyone who would embarass himself and UVA by taking such action, would have little difficulty embarassing the law firm that hired him.

Two thoughts:

1) It's not *THEIR* young. It's potential competitors for THEIR jobs when they don't get one upon graduation.

2) Who cares about a moot court competition participation? Did you win it? Fine. If not, I don't give a a sheiss.

The complaint wasn't that there is an honor code, or that you're not supposed to lie about moot court on your resume.

It was that STUDENTS threatened to call the employers to do "spot-checks" of other students. That's ballsy, and douchey.

Yes it was from the Chancellor

139 - you're missing my point; a reminder about the honor code is fine. It's a good thing! I don't want people lying on their resumes either, and if I put all the time into creating the moot court problem, etc., i'd be pissed that people were lying about it too.

But I would NEVER send an email like that, sounding like I was talking to my 5 year old kid - "I'd hate to tell Daddy that you broke the vase first, you better tell him yourself!"

...and it saved our butts. Because the demon wanted to kill us, ohhh...

...but he was forced to set us free by the HONOR CODE that demons... have to live by.

The Principal!!!! He will give me T.P.!!!!!!

What is this "moot court" thing?

I am beginning to wonder whether Mystal was rejected at Virginia.

Moot Court = Consolation for those not smart enough to make the Law Review

Agreed that the email was a hollow threat. The problem of students putting down Moot Court on their resume (whether employers care about it or not) needed to be addressed in some fashion or another, but this was the wrong way to go. As an honor code violation, the only sanction is expulsion, but that seems a bit harsh. Whatever the proper punishment, it's not for the Board to decide: they should have left it up to the administration.
While I don't expect anyone to sympathize with the Board, they are responsible for scheduling 200+ people for oral arguments over the course of 2 weeks or so. Each argument requires 3 judges. That's a lot of people to coordinate. People who use Moot Court as resume fodder make a mockery of the efforts of the Board ("no, , the email makes a mockery of the Board." To that I respond, touche.).

151: Lots of LR kids are competing. I think a few board members are LR, too.

Aside from GPA/honors, the only activity that matters in law school for resume purposes is law review. Period. Agree with earlier comments that moot court is worthwhile to list only if you win a competition.

I clicked on the link to the moot court "masthead." What a joke. Got to love some of those douchey first names. Bastion of diversity...

Dear Firm, if you hired me based on my representation that I would be participating in a school-wide moot court competition, please be advised that I will not.

What's so hard about that?

UVA got cheated in the douchebag competition. That title rightfully belongs to them. I'm going to start calling the employers of the UVA 3L moot cout board to make sure they've listed "runner up in the ATL douchiest law school competition" on their resumes.

I'd love to hear one of those phone calls.

Moot Court D-Bag: "Yes, Mr. Vault Hiring Partner, I must regretfully inform you that although Chauncy Lee listed 'Participated in Lile Moot Court' at the bottom of his resume, he in fact dropped out."

Mr. Vault Hiring Partner: "Who the fuck are you and why are you wasting my time?"

is this really a big deal?

Considering the whole "Henry Gates should sue the chick that called the cops" crap that Elie put out earlier this year, is there any question in anyone's mind that, had Elie been on the Moot Court Board, this is exactly the email he would have composed?

Great post.

They could solve this whole problem by publishing a list of the competitors on their website, so that HR departments can verify the information if they want to. Anyone who would list the competition and not complete it would then potentially look like a moron for listing it on their resumes in the first place.

Law students are terrible about completing commitments, and need to suffer some consequence of this. That consequence should not be having other students interfere with your job search.

wait, i'm confused.... is this a way for UVA students to say they're actually ON the moot court team so they can put it on their resume? This is just some crappy intramural competition that appears to be a free sign-up. Looks like just another way to inflate the # of students who appear to be overachievers without actually having to actually compete. Firms, you're on notice.

have taken things to an entirely new level pettiness

153: That doesn't change the fact that you were not smart enough to make the Law Review. Enjoy your consolation prize. "If your not first, your last."

164 - did you have spell check on your Law Review?

Can someone define douchey?

1) Unappreciated bureaucratic tools have watched otherwise dedicated co-workers flaunt certain rules.
2) Said bureaucrats see an opening caused by some outside crisis to bring their co-workers down, at same time convincing themselves that their efforts were motivated by anything other than personal pettiness.
3) Bureaucrats make their move and then realize that they are actually opening their less than perfect lives to scrutiny from the co-workers they are trying to bring down.

If you want to make it to the next season, remember that snitches get stitches…

Right... because including a moot court contest in which one voluntarily participates will make or break a resume.

I wouldn't expect you to undesrtand, Mystal. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.

William Minor Lile Moot Court Board

Those of us who went to UVA know that putting moot court on your OGI resume is about as meaningful as saying "JD, Order of the Coif, expected, May 2011."

Win it, or don't do it.

Um, 164, that doesn't make sense. 153 said that there are people who are doing LR and MC. They still made LR.
probably should learn to ignore trolls...

What a bunch of douchebags!!! Unbelievable - we definitely need to reconsider which is the Douchiest Law School. This is over-the-top douchtastic.
Query: are any of the 3Ls transfers? They are notorious for this sort of crap.

The majority of the members of the Lile Board are on journals, mostly in leadership positions. On the other hand, the person who submitted this e-mail, who did not stay anonymous for very long, flunked the journal tryout as well. Looks like someone is just upset that he got called out on his inability to follow through on commitments.

@161

Do you think people actually have time or a desire to double check meaningless details on every resume? Here is how it works:

1) You list stuff on your resume and send it along with your transcript
2) I look at your GPA, class rank, and the interests listed on your resume (journal experience might help if your interests are lame).
3) I decide whether or not to interview you
4) I ask you questions about things listed on your resume; you (hopefully) provide good answers.
5) If you are not a jerk, you might get an offer.

The purpose of a transcript is to help someone decide whether to interview. The purpose of a resume is to help the interviewer know what to ask you about. We don't call up your high-school, your boy scout troop, or your piano instructor to see if you actually have done all the things claimed.

And no, you should never (ever ever) call a hiring partner or even a law firm to discuss someone else's resume. If the partner or firm has questions, they will make the inquiries.

dear uva 3L morons,

you know elie's right when the majority of atl commmentators don't throttle him, or in fact actually support his side. stop trying to defend yourself and admit that you are idiots.

This douchebaggery MUST stop! PE, since you are the most accomplished of douchebags, please let these UVA 3Ls know that they've crossed the line.

-PE fan

If a UVA 3L calls for something this petty, in our judgment that's indicative of their own lack of professional judgment. They will be asked what firms they are working for and we will consider contacting the UVA career services office.

This douchebaggery MUST stop! PE, since you are the most accomplished of douchebags, please let these UVA 3Ls know that they've crossed the line.

-PE fan

Anyone have the names of the students on the competition board? I would like to call up their employers and notify them they have hired little Nazis.

Let's not drag the whole board into it. The email was sent by the Chancellor. - UVa 2L

The people demand a recall of Duke, and the immediate installation of UVA as Douchiest Law School!!!!

I actually won moot court at a T10 and got almost a number of honors associated with it. I have no fucking idea how this happened.

I can assure everyone that nobody gives a shit about it. It has never come up in an interview before or after the competition.

I can understand (to a point) the Board's allegiance to the Honor Code. Assuming that is what is motivating the e-mail, maybe the simple solution is for the Board to allow others to vet their resumes to ensure that there are no misrepresentations that may have lead prospective employers astray.

The people demand a recall of Duke, and the immediate installation of UVA as Douchiest Law School!!!!

180 - nice try pal...

actually 180 is right. chancellor sent it out

3L here who worked with a 2L as a SA this summer at a V50 firm. The UVA girl was a total dusch and literally could do nothing for herself. She got no offered, no surprise. Turns out, she was the only one at the small office I was at! LOL. And as it turns out, she is not the only dusch, she was the tip o' the ice.

UVA = fags.

3L with secure, non-deferred offer who goes to a lower-ranked, less faggoty school than UV(g)A(y)! (LMAO at all the UVA fags and loving that I didn't get accepted there)

how funny, UVA is not listed at all under the ABA National Moot Court Competition: http://www.abanet.org/lsd/competitions/naac/winners.pdf

Telling of UVA's moot court worthiness?

doesn't duke put it on your transcript if you did moot court? my school did.

Guys at my high school used to put false credentials on their resume all the time, just to have a shot at getting accepted to TTT colleges. It was no big deal.

Elie really has thing for Virginia Law.

104 = the 3L douche that sent the email. Hope you're waiting for your offer to be withdrawn

Apparently enough UVA students lie on their resumes to cause other UVA students to panic about whether they've padded sufficiently to compete.

New Rule: Assume resumes out of UVA law are filled with falsifications and throw them in the trash. If forced to interview a UVA person, grill them hard about details and if there is even a tiny a question about anything, let the hiring manager know you're uncomfortable with the candidate.

What does UVA stand for? University of Virginia at Abingdon?

As a person participating in this competition, I am angry because the email exposed what a joke the competition is. If the idiot on Moot Court Board hadn't sent this ridiculous email, I might have looked like even more of a striver.

Thank God I can fall back on Law Review.

Also, spot checks are more harmful than they sound. Example: Honest 2L gives an updated resume to BigLaw at his call back that no longer says moot court on it. Dickhead 3L calls BigLaw and says "we just wanted to make sure you knew Honest 2L dropped out of the competition." BigLaw must wonder why that phone call would even be made.

As a person participating in this competition, I am angry because the email exposed what a joke the competition is. If the idiot on Moot Court Board hadn't sent this ridiculous email, I might have looked like even more of a striver.

Thank God I can fall back on Law Review.

- UVA 2L Douche (Not really a douche but we have a lot here)

Also, spot checks are more harmful than they sound. Example: Honest 2L gives an updated resume to BigLaw at his call back that no longer says moot court on it. Dickhead 3L calls BigLaw and says "we just wanted to make sure you knew Honest 2L dropped out of the competition." BigLaw must wonder why that phone call would even be made.

186 -- wow, just wow. Get over it man, ITS NOT YOUR FAULT.

3L with secure, non-deferred offer who goes to a lower-ranked, less faggoty school than UV(g)A(y)! (LMAO at all the UVA fags and loving that I didn't get accepted there)

186 -- wow, just wow.

3L with secure, non-deferred offer who goes to a lower-ranked, less faggoty school than UV(g)A(y)! (LMAO at all the UVA fags and loving that I didn't get accepted there)

Get over it man, ITS NOT YOUR FAULT.

200!

Seriously this is so the BEST. POST. EVER.

169:

Are you kidding me?!
"We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something."

What are you, 24 years old? You are such a fucking douche! What have you spent your life defending? And you, of all people, wants to talk about backbone? You Moot Court kids are too fucking funny.

Seriously, though, you should be ashamed of yourself for making such a stupid (and empty) threat.

i love how people believe that putting a lame title at the bottom of a post means it was really them. yes, and PE is a real partner. idiot.

UVA must be doing something right to get so many people's panties in a twist...

First, this has ALWAYS been the Lile Moot Court Rule. This isn't new. Every year a similar e-mail is sent to 2Ls. (Elie, your reporting is insanely shoddy. Do you ever fact-check?)

Second, the reason this e-mail is routinely sent is because 2Ls put "Lile" on their resumes the summer before fall recruiting, but the competition doesn't begin until September. Some 2Ls withdraw (many for valid reasons) after they have already secured jobs for their second summer, and, under the rules of the competition, have an affirmative duty to update their resumes with regard to potential employers.

Third, I'm not sure that failing to inform employers is an honor code violation, and in that sense the 3L or 3Ls who wrote this may have been a bit heavy-handed. But, students do agree to abide by the rules of the competition and not telling employers the truth may be a sort of lie by omission. I leave it to others to argue this one.

Finally, Elie, I'm not sure where your moral compass is pointed, but by absolutely trashing the 3Ls you are in essense defending student's rights to lie by omission on their resumes. Maybe that's how Harvard rolls, but why should law schools and students accept that as the status quo?

I'm sure these items have already been pointed out in the comments, but I don't have time to read through the 75% that are merely trolls pretending to be UVA douches. (For what it's worth, most of these trolls are conflating UVA undergrad -- with all it's douchitude -- with UVA Law. But whatever.)

UVA 4L

This is hilarious.

I’m trying to imagine receiving a phone call from a 3L UVA wholly unconnected to me or my firm, demanding that I locate some resume so that I may inquire into whether one faceless UVA 2L of the 100 faceless UVA 2Ls who submitted their resumes, all sitting in some file cabinet, still lists “moot court” on her resume because, the 3L informs me, she dropped out.

I’m not really sure what I’d do. Practically speaking, I supposed I’d hang up. I wouldn’t even burden my secretary with it. But quite frankly, a part of me would really want to give that 3L some hell for her troubles. As in, take down her name and make sure everyone I know in this industry avoids it. I think I speak for more than just myself when I say that’s just not the type of lawyer with whom I’d want to associate.

To be honest, I wouldn’t blame that 2L for dropping out. I’m probably do the same thing rather than be in such company.

169 = fagoot!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL. You ARE a douche.

202,
Rent "A Few Good Men." Then get a life.
200

48, I agree with you. The 3Ls threatening to out former moot-court competitors to prospective employers sound like BigLaw partners-in-training. If you can deal with minor-league douchiness, how are you going to deal with real suckitude in BigLaw?

48, I agree with you. The 3Ls threatening to out former moot-court competitors to prospective employers sound like BigLaw partners-in-training. If you can't deal with minor-league douchiness, how are you going to deal with real suckitude in BigLaw?

206,
Great post. I was thinking the exact same thing.

202, you are an absolute tool. Wow.

207,
See 208. Then 212. Then get a life.
Huzzah!

208,

I think renting "A Few Good Men" (or quoting it, or referencing it in any way whatsoever), is key evidence that you have absolutely no life at all.

Dude, you're a loser.

The editor douche of some crappy journal threatened to do this to me when I couldn't make some Saturday meeting because of prior plans that could not be changed (think funeral or wedding important). He said it was "mandatory" and that if I did not go I would lose my seat on the journal. I told him to fuck off and I quit. He said if I quit I'd have to notify everyone I sent my resume to.

Large douche. I just told everyone, including the dean of his douchiness and told him I wouldn't be there and if he had a problem with it to take it up with the administration as he can't just universally kick me off the journal. I also told him I would no longer communicate with him, but would gladly respond to the other editors.

No problem anymore. Just empty threats. And John, short little man problem John, you sir are the epitomy of douche. Not only did every 2L and 3L I knew heard about how large of a douche and mean you were, but I told everyone I knew how you irrational, unreasonable, and weren't to be trusted.

I wonder who got hurt more in the long run by your ridiculous actions.

215, John clearly did irreversible damage to your command of the English language.

215- did you mean unilaterally?

208 / 212 / 213 -

You're right. Everyone who doesn't remember "A Few Good Men" obviously needs a life.

Do you do Jack Nicholson impressions too?

186-wow, you obviously went to a shitty school & have a low IQ if you think "gay" is an appropriate insult.

this behavior is much more serious than just being douchy, that e-mail rises to the level of being "bitchassedness" - as they say in urban culture.

I have never heard all but 2-3 of the names on the Moot Court Board. I'm not uber involved with anything or going out all the time, but I'm also not a hermit. Who are these people?? Are they even law students? Almost none of them are in the student picture directory.

Also, this is only dumb b/c the 3Ls are threatening to call personally. If this were just a reminder to take moot court off your resume, it wouldn't be so bad.
--UVA 2L

98% of ATL commenters are douches... lets have a fake game where you all try and prove you are in the top 2%

Resume tasty LOCKED

215 here, I wrote the rant in 5 seconds. It's a blog. I did not check it or proofread it. You get the story, sorry I used universally instead of unilaterally. Get over it.

latham sucks! never forget

@221: Dude, if you ARE in the Student Picture Directory, which is voluntary after 1L year, then you win the douche award by a long shot.

UVA '06 grad here. I'm now embarrassed to have Lile on my resume (which stands at the ready, just in case). What gets me riled up is the fact that the school presumes adherence to the honor code -- e.g. tests are taken outside the presence of teachers, assignments with hard deadlines are dropped off in teachers' mailboxes, etc. -- but, nevertheless, the Moot Court Board is presuming just the opposite. UVA is a place where students can be trusted, in part, the argument goes, because of the respect for the treasured history of the school and the harsh consequences of violating the honor code.

And yes, I'm pretty sure I recall pledging to notify employers if I dropped out of the competition before participating, which means I would have violated the honor code for not complying. The Board's position goes against everything the honor code (and the school) is meant to uphold. If the board thinks the students can't be trusted to comply, they're essentially arguing against the existence of the honor code and what the school stands for. The board is suggesting that the 2Ls who signed up for the competition can't be trusted.

To the Board: Today, you embarrassed yourselves. Today, I'm ashamed to be your alumnus

From what I gather, moot court is meaningless to most big firms, with the reason being that most big firms couldn't care less whether you have any court-room related skills at all. After all, everyone knows that their associates aren't going to see sunlight for the next five years, let alone a courtroom.

I do the hiring for a prosecutor's office. I care a lot about moot court, as do my colleagues. Our hires have to be able to walk into a court room right off the bat and handle themselves well. Moot court is good training for that.

I wouldn't expect Elie to understand that--I've yet to see any evidence that he has any courtroom skills, analytical skills, or social intelligence. Nor would I expect most of you to care about MC either--this site seems to be populated by big-firm lawyers or big-firm wannabes. And that's fine.

But for those of us in the courtroom end of the legal world, moot court is a big deal, as is lying on a resume. I'd want to know both things.

266 is in the top 2%. Well done for pointing out the obvious. It only took 226 posts.

-222

205,

Without doing too much to out myself, I'm a 3L Double Hoo. I find about the same percentage of the Law School to be insufferable douches as the undergrads.

I did sign up for Lile, and dropped out. I don't recall ever getting an email like this, but then again, I never put the damn thing on my resume and ignored all the emails.

Who ever developed the "spot check" system is not familiar with the concept of tortious interference.

I suggest the Board members who enforce this system go out and purchase some D&O coverage.

214/218,

My bad. You're obviously correct that it is much cooler to get your panties in a wad over a line from a movie written in blog comments by somebody pretending to be the subject of the blog post.

Sure wish I had your life.

208/213

225: What, it's bad to be able to look up who people are if you need to meet with them and don't know what they look like? I fail to see what's remotely douchey about being in a directory.

I think the Board is missing the point of the honor code. It is a simple and harsh rule - you may not lie, cheat or steal in any context related to your affiliation with U.Va.

But the upside is (or used to be, at least) that it creates a "community of trust". So everyone subject to the honor code is (supposedly) assumed to be in compliance with that code. We are assumed to be honorable - no checking or second guessing is necessary.

Also, should the board, in fact, dig up an honor code violation through this practice, the 2L affected would have a bigger problem than embarrassment with firms that got the faulty resume. An honor code violation has only a "single sanction": if you violate the code you are forever banned from the community of trust, meaning you are kicked out of U.Va. forever.

It's almost impossible after being kicked out for an honor violation to get another law school to take you in, and it would then be an uphill battle to get any character & fitness board to admit you to the bar if you ever do manage to finish your JD somewhere...

@227: what you said.

If Moot Court "isn't a big deal," then why did 241 people sign up for Lile in the first place? If something is so worthless that you don't even want to follow through on it, why pay the $50 registration fee at all?

The real douches here are the people who paid money to pad their resumes with something they think is worthless, then complained when they had to tell their employers that they didn't do something that they, and their employers, think is worthless. All the Chancellor did was say she would enforce the rules.

How would they know the names of the students' employers?

Right on, 234!

I must say, I'm a little bit surprised by the comments on this board.
I mean I can see that law review has value as a sort of honor roll and that simply being a participant in moot court has no value, but I find it hard to believe that a law firm would rather hire a write-on to law review in the bottom half of their class over a moot court champion in the top 25% of their class. If that really is the case, its no wonder biglaw fell apart. I've known plenty of people on law review at the top ten school I attended that would be inferior to their classmates...

FWIW, I am interviewing a 3L next week that just happens to be on the lile moot court board. I don't think she is going to get a very good review :-)

witty, 238. now get back to your civ pro reading.

Anyone who puts a nose on an Internet smiley face is clearly not old enough to be interviewing anyone.

108: LMAO

I am a 2L who complained, along with others, to the board at the email address they gave in the packet. I'm happy the Chancellor said something. I was up until 5am writing that effing brief. It is not fair that some jerk can lie to potential employers when so many of us are desperate for any edge in the market. It's his own fault for being a lazy ass. And FYI, from what my 3L friends have told me, the board has asked people to notify employers EVERY year.

234,

So 241 people signed up? Way to out yourself as being on the board... But good to know. I'd like to know exactly how Lile is spending the ~$12,000 raised through $50 entry fees.

I wasn't surprised one bit by the email. It wasn't the first jerk move by the Moot Court board. There have been so many obnoxious emails sent out by Moot Court . Comparing Moot Court to Journal tryouts, I think so much more of the managing board of Law Review. The LR tryout was well written & well thought out - and they didn't make us print our own cases out from Westlaw or make us pay $50 for the pleasure. I can't say the same for the Moot Court packet. You clowns couldn't even get the citations correct in the list of authorities.

Most people I know who dropped either hadn't listed it on their resume, were on law review and didn't care, had an offer already, or had no callbacks/offers/job prospects.

227, 206 here.

It seems to me that the issue here is not whether Moot Court is meaningless or whether lying/cheating is acceptable. The issue, at least for me, is the pettiness of a non-affiliated UVA 3L in "checking up" without any suspicion, thereby wasting my time.

Let's say you receive such a phone call, retrieve the resume in question, and discover quite rightly that the UVA 2L either did not list Moot Court experience or properly updated her resume. Wouldn't you feel the slightest tad resentful that the 3L took up your time because she assumed the worst about her fellow student?

I know I would.

242 - It wasn't that they instructed people to notify employers, it was that they threatened to "spot-check."

UVA = the Duke of the Virginias

242 -- "It's not fair" doesn't justify taking extraordinary actions to punish and settle scores. Unfortunately, EVERY law school has people like you, which is why law school sucks. We had people on the law review at our school tattling on each other over name calling for chrissakes. Get a life.

UVA = the Douche of the Virginias

243: Speaking as someone who has graded quite a few UVA Law Journal Tryouts, the tryout is not well written. For one thing, the tryout encourages "creativity" and suggests there is no correct answer; however, until you actually grade the tryout you don't realize they actually do have a form answer and they are seeing how well you track its pattern. So before you completely criticize the moot court board, keep in mind that while the actual packet may be attractive, the grading of the tryouts is poor and, in some sense, disingenuous.

204, 227 here.

I'm assuming you have paralegals and secretaries. I'd be really surprised if much of your time gets wasted at all.

But I do think this is more about the relative value of moot court than about the perceived time wasting problem.

Put it this way: if a student made it onto law review but then decided to drop it during the first week, I'm guessing that most of you on this site would have a real problem with that student still listing law review on their resume. And if you, as an employer, had hired that student based (in part) on the law review credential, I'd be stunned if you wouldn't want to know about it as well.

Well, a lot of prosecutors offices pay attention to moot court in the same way that firms pay attention to law review. So we'd want to know, just like you'd want to know if a student was lying about law review.

This is not a new phenomenon - when I was in school (pre-ATL) both the Law Review Quarterly AND the Moot Court boards were comprised of the biggest douche-holes on the planet.

UVA students lie on their resumes enough that they have to be not only reminded repeatedly not to do so, but actually threatened with resume spot checks? What kind of school is this? Jesus.

243, EVERYONE knows the number. they told us.

253 comments, and most of them by UVA students. Get over it, get a life, go study or try to find a job. But please, shut the fuck up about your pathetic moot court.

To me, placing intra-school moot court "participant" on your resume is nothing but fluff and padding because you have nothing else to put on it. No one cares. Seriously, no one.

Hey UVA 3L's if your soooo freaked out about getting a job, just walk across the street to the US Army JAG School, they are ramping up their hiring and they now will give you up to 65k in loan forgiveness on top of full military pay and benefits. They only thing you have to check at the door is your attitude, otherwise it will be beaten out of you with a few blanket parties like in full metal jacket!!

I teach LSAT prep, and one of the most common "flawed reasoning" problems on the LSAT occurs when the speaker extrapolates from one member the characteristics of the entire group, and vice-versa. It sounds like a lot of people on this board missed all those questions. People are saying 1.) that because one person on the Board sent one e-mail, the ENTIRE board is comprised of douchebags, and 2.) that because a few people lie on their resumes that all people who withdraw, or even all people at UVA, lie on their resumes.

Basic logic, folks.

For that matter, if EVERYONE who withdrew continued to lie on their resumes, why would the Board be concerned? It sounds to me like they Chancellor threatened to enforce the policy for the protection of the people who did the right thing but still have to compete for jobs against the liars.

WANNA TALK ABOUT HONOR CODE???? Let's check to see how many of the class of 2012 really are "minority" as they "self reported" on their applications. UVA never checks -- why would they?

I know two 100% WASPs who said they were "hispanic."

169, I thought your use of the quote was inspired. And 202's reaction (and subsequent defensiveness) is hilarious.

202, you bombed, and you can't handle the truth.

250, you may be right that certain employers would be concerned about this, but that certainly doesnt mean it is a fellow classmates job to basically be a tattle tale" as if they are still in 3rd grade. And to the post that claimed moot court was for the cool kids who got laid and could fight, once I saw the term LOL in your comment I immediately knew you were lame

250, you may be right that certain employers would be concerned about this, but that certainly doesnt mean it is a fellow classmates job to basically be a tattle tale" as if they are still in 3rd grade. And to the post that claimed moot court was for the cool kids who got laid and could fight, once I saw the term LOL in your comment I immediately knew you were lame

250, you may be right that certain employers would be concerned about this, but that certainly doesnt mean it is a fellow classmates job to basically be a tattle tale" as if they are still in 3rd grade. And to the post that claimed moot court was for the cool kids who got laid and could fight, once I saw the term LOL in your comment I immediately knew you were lame

i have no idea who these board people are, but the 2 blonde girls who took my brief were really nice.

Seems harsh, but I support it.

1) UVA has a really strict honor policy, this is part of it. It has its benefits (i.e., exams are unsupervised and your computer isn't locked, so you can type in Word and search your outlines [if the class allows it]).

2) The Moot Court board has harped on this for years. Particularly for the 10 million of us who came straight from undergrad with a generic degree, it is a useful credential. People just didn't freak out about it, because jobs were easier to come by.

3) Given the extra competition this year, I'd rather the school err on the side of the honest/non-lazy.

Since when is there a continuing obligation to supplement one's resume?

@264: Since you sign up for a voluntary competition that says there is.

@257 - C&F will probably catch that, no?

re: 258

"I thought your use of the quote was inspired"

who talks like that? oh, that's right, tools talk that way.

quoting a movie from 1992 is never "inspired."

it's because of people like you that i hated law school so much.

-not 202

@262: I think those were the 1st Round Justices

UVA 3L here. What all of you fucking idiots fail to realize is the sheer cowardness of these 2L weasels. I can’t tell you how many 2Ls I’ve heard say that they had no intention of actually competing in the tournament, and that they were actively trying to get dropped by accumulating penalties for writing briefs that didn’t comply with the rules (I’m talking about the 40% who even chose to write briefs). What is so angering to those on the board - and I can promise you I’m not on it - and EVERYONE who has ever competed in the tournament and actually tried - now I am in this group - is not that these little pieces of shit somehow screwed them/us out of a job (I’ve already secured employment), but that they acted like such gigantic, gaping pussies. They went "wahhh" like little babies, said “I don’t wanna!” and then gave everyone who has ever put any effort into the tournament the finger. While I’m not sure about the remedy advocated (contacting firms), they should be punished - or at least exposed for the enormous pussies they are.

269 -- The policy is ridiculous. By doing the competition after OGIs, yet telling us to put it on our resumes, the board is taking advantage of 2L fear. The board, if it had balls, could tell 2Ls not to put Lile on their resumes until after they'd done it... but of course, that would be after interviews, so the competition would have like 10 people in it instead of 200+. I blame the board for the problems.

That said, I've already informed all of my potential employers (Arby's, Burger King, Foot Locker) that I'm not doing Lile. They seemed OK with it.

169 sums up how annoying so many (not all) UVA students and grads are. Many schools have honor codes. My undergrad had one older than UVA's, and students took it very seriously. But UVA acts like theirs is the only one, the best, the most serious. They're different than the rest of us peons.

Because they're UVFA, for god's sake. Can't stand the attitude.

And no one gives a crap that your diploma size is based on the specifications of Thomas Jefferson. Seriously.

p.s. I got into UVA law and couldn't bring myself to go.

271 -- Its UVa. not UVA.

The code is the oldest student run code.

Most importantly, 169's comments is just a quote from A Few Good Men .

YOU GOT SERVED. SERVED SERVED SERVED

272 here -- as you can tell by my sentence structure and proofreading ability, I did not compete in Lile.

271 - SERVED SERVED SERVED

271,

1) How would you even pronounce "UVFA?" University of Virf***ing-ginia? Virgin-f***king-ia? Please clarify. If the latter, I don't see the problem.

2) As has been noted elsewhere, 169 is a near-verbatim quote from a 17-year-old Jack Nicholson movie. It's not a serious comment.

Thanks.

270 - 269 here. You were never required to put Lile on your resume before the tournament. You had the OPTION of putting it on your resume. And one could easily argue that with that privilege comes the obligation to notify employers that you are no longer involved. But that's beside the point, because - as I said - I'm only mad at these 2Ls because they were too big of pussies to even TRY to put some effort in - not because they somehow got a leg up in the job hunt (which is a joke). In doing so, they shit on everyone who actually cares.

@270: Oh yeah, boo hoo, the school wants to help you out by letting you put Lile on your resume early. You're an asshole for complaining about that.

The 2Ls should be pissed at the other 2Ls, they're the ones who complained and asked the Board to deal with it.

I doubt the spot checks are random it sounds like they have specific people in mind.

Does anyone think that putting on your resume Particpant, Lile Moot Court Competition is a game changer? At least now it will now provide 15 seconds of conversation during an intervew.

262, 268 - Yeah that was them. I kind of feel bad that they got dragged into this. I know one of the First Round Justices from Libel Show, and she has been working her ass off for this competition. This sucks.

The email was a douchey move. To the commentator who suggested people are leaping to conclusions based on an email from one member of the board I'd suggest reading how the email was signed and then maybe you'd see why people are leaping (eek!) to that conclusion.

I'd also suggest that putting something on a resume to the effect that the person is/was a 'participant' is accurate as long as said person paid the $50 fee.

277-

The email said random spot checks. If the email just reminded people to take it off or stressed the importance of following the honor code, this wouldn't be on ATL. It was the public threat of students to call potential employers of other students that did it.

I do feel bad for the nice members of the moot court board.

GUIDE TO IDENTIFYING COMMENTERS:

Commenter trashes schools ranked 1-3 - Likely attends any school ranked 15 and up

Commenter trashes schools ranked 4-10 - Very likely comes from a school ranked 11-25, though a few come from outside the top 25 (and even fewer from 4-10 itself)

Commenter trashes a school outside the top 10 (Rare) - Almost certainly comes from a school outside the top 10, as people inside the top 10 don’t give a shit about such schools

Sounds like the contest is rigged to get as many people as possible to submit their fee and then drop out due to interviewing conflicts, while preventing those people who do not finish from listing it on their resumes. But the organizers then claim the number of people who paid the fee as participants, to try and make it look as though it were far more competitive than it is. Sound right? This is absolutely douchetastic.

The resume-rule here makes the Board seem more concerned about people tarnishing its good name and less concerned about actually ensuring a fair and rigorous competition for its more serious participants.

Forcing people to do poor jobs on their briefs and arguments introduces unfair advantages to the *real* competitors because the seriousness of your opponent matters. Requiring participation from disinterested students basically amounts to a "free pass" system-- a random distribution of some number of first round "byes" to more serious competitors.

And while opponents are assigned randomly in the first round, the serious of the consequences of losing-- complete disqualification-- makes the idea of a random assignment of a first round "bye" somewhat unfair. You'd have people advance who may not be qualified, while better qualified competitors go ousted during the first round.

It's the absolute perfect way to magnify the flaws of a tournament system, but a horrible trade off to make if preserving the sanctity of the competition is priority 1.

It amazes me to see that UVA students believe that Big Law ... including many of the attorneys on this board who, like me, have reviewed hundreds of resumes from Big Law applicants ... cares whether you were a "participant in a moot court competition." Winner, yes, that's relevant info. Moot court participant? Christ, that's on the level with "loves walks on the beach and Thai food."

All of UVA Law is completely fucked-up and lacking in perspective, that's my conclusion. And yes, 256, I'm looking at you whilst drawing it.

254:

This is 261/255/188/109/97/95/94/26/2/1 here. 278 was right about 222, 242, and 200, but not about 175 or 198 (I'm still trying to figure out about 111). If you would just be more like 253 and not post some BS 255-ish rant, then maybe me and 270 wouldn't have to go all 74 or 199 on you. Why don't you just do us all a favor and peace out like 45 or 204. Lest you end up like 66. Douche.

- 261/255/188/109/97/95/94/26/2/1

The Moot Court board at UVA had a pretty poor reputation when I was there. I'm sure most of them at most law schools do, given the personality that Moot Court attracts.

"honor code". how quaint. is that just a euphemism for a policy that encourages people to rat on their friends?

If I got a "spot check" call from a UVA moot court board member I would take down their name, thank them and do my best to make sure that my firm never hired the board member who made the call.

If my firm was interested in making sure that the person actually competed, we'd call the moot court board. So if we don't call you, don't bother calling us.

286 - LMFAO

The best part of ATL is that I get to anonymously post nasty things about people I don't know -- amazing!

MOTION FOR RECONSIDERATION

In light of the new factual evidence revealed by the “Lile 2009” incident, petitioner requests that ATL and the ATL community reconsider its conclusion in the Douchiest Law School Competition (DLSC). In the spirit of democratic values, however, petitioner proposes a special equitable mechanism for reconsidering the winner of the DLSC instead of merely requesting that the laurels be stripped from Duke and awarded to UVa. Petitioner requests that ATL offer a DLSC Reconsideration Run-Off, allowing ATL visitors to vote whether Duke should retain the title or whether the title should be awarded to UVa., with special note regarding the contributions of the Lile Moot Court Board.

@194 - we already knew it was a joke; it didn't need to be revealed...

@234 - because they've got nothing else...

@256 - how is life on the MC board treating you these days?

@286 - clearly on L. Rev. - no one else would take that much time to correctly cite to so many posts and still fail to say anything persuasive...

Nobody gives a shit that you participated (winning would be completely different) in a competition with 200+ others. I've never seen such a big deal made out of such a completely inconsequential thing. Wow.

I'm putting in an early vote for UVA for Douchiest Law School in 2010.

286!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LILE INTRAMURAL MOOT COURT WILL NEVER HELP YOU DURING YOUR CAREER...MUCH LIKE GEOMETRY IN HIGH SCHOOL.

GET OVER IT.

296 = Moron.

UVA student here...my classmates really need to stop emailing ATL about every complaint or issue that happens at the Law School. This, the HW incident, etc....all of this publicity just makes our school look bad and reinforces unfair stereotypes about UVA. All of this stuff is so trivial and pointless. People need to chill out.

Post 300!

Well, if there's one thing we've learned in this thread, it's that apparently, Big Law thinks it's better to have spent your entire law school career reading other people's work than to have even attempted to do your own, and that they ESPECIALLY don't care whether you can actually do any in-court lawyering. If it wasn't obvious why their business model is turning into Epic Fail before, it certainly is now.

This would never happen at Florida Coastal, where moot court events are held at Hooters.

I hope the 2Ls have the good sense to read the FAMILY EDUCATIONAL RIGHTS AND PRIVACY ACT before the douchey 3L disclose student information to the public.

UVa continues to be as asinine as it was when I graduated from there.

After working with several Uva (not UVA, please) grads, I can't for the life of me understand how this school did not win douchiest law school by nothing less than a landslide.

Elie,
This was one of your better posts. When Lat eventually fires you and you apply to work at some other blog, you should use this post as your writing sample. If future Elie were still here, he would tell you the same thing.

YAAAY DOUCHEY PWESTON!!

As a former Moot Court Board member (NOT at UVA), I think it would be much more fun to keep track of who dropped out and where they ended up getting jobs and then anonymously contacting their employers to make sure they had removed Moot Court from their resumes, thus ensuring the swift departure of those who had not. No upfront threats for me. I much prefer the stealth approach!

This reminds me of my first semester of law review when a douche-bag editor (more than 10 years my junior - yes I already had a successful career creating things before I went to law school) called me into his "office" to sternly complain that my cite checking wasn't fast enough and it was a very serious issue. I barely held in the laughter. Why did I ever subject myself to law review....

We worked at the same V10 law firm - he was gone by his second year, when times were good.

Don't worry kids, this kind of snottiness catches up with the snotty people because they can't turn it off.

Only at UVa can varsity coaches sit on knowledge of sexual assaults, students be found guilty of sexual assaults at a University level and given sanctions less than expulsion, but the world ends when resumes are not updated or citations are improper.

UVa needs to take a real look at the inconsistencies between a single sanction honor code and a separate judicial panel that examines non-lying/cheating/stealing offenses (with a range of sanctions beyond the single sanction.

I suppose the above mentioned varsity coach (who sat on information of one of my friends who was raped by one of his athletes) had no affirmative duty to report the rape because it was not an honor code violation but rather a judicial violation.

Oh the irony of Thomas Jefferson, Sally Hemmings and the UVa Honor Code.

There are 250 people competing.... Who the hell cares if there are a few people who have it on their resume! If they write that they won the competition on their resume, then bitch. Until then, stop being pussys. It's not like there are jobs for all of those competing anyway.

Dear UVA 3Ls,

Get off your high horses. You're a bunch of d-bags for throwing your classmates under the bus! You guys are really making a good name for yourselves there at UVA.....really fine institution you have

309,

I am (truly) sorry to hear about your friend, but the coach's job is to be a coach and nothing more. And how are you so certain he knew? Sexual assault is a particularly thorny area when it comes to interpreting allegations (think about the Kobe Bryant case and Duke lacrosse case). Its become so difficult that even prosecutors are gun-shy about prosecuting cases, so imagine a coach who isn't even tasked with the job of fighting crime.

I went to UVa. Even participated in Moot Court. I can't believe that UVa kids would stoop to this kind of officious douchebaggery. I'm actually offended by the author of that email. If I ever run into him at foxfield, i'm going to throw in the trough of piss for being such a power-hungry mentard. Also, 311, eat some sh*t. Really, you're going to disparage the "institution" (nice word, clownshoe) for one crappy email? Go be a herb somewhere else, herbknocker.

313,

Speaking of the "trough of piss", I ran into this clip about pissboy (garçon de piss in French, pisjongen in German?) while researching a response to "Pls Hndle Thx: Party Like It’s 5770"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGAgu6zI9v0

enjoy

I am pretty confident that if UVA condoned a phone call to our law firm to "update" a candidate's resume as a transparent means to enforce participation in moot court, we would have an internal discussion about the judgment of the law school administration, and give consideration to terminating further recruiting at the school.

I served on our recruiting committee for many years (painful as it was), and moot court is only slightly more interesting on a resume than intramural basketball, maybe.

Hm, from what I gather reading these comments, not only did the chancellor throw 2Ls under the bus, but also his/her fellow board-mates. Great showing.

So the only requirement for this particular Moot Court competition is to be a 2L at UVA? Who would even bother putting that on their resume? If places on a moot court team are awarded through some competitive means, then you should put it on a resume. If you win or place in a Moot Court competition, you should put it on a resume. Participating in some TTT free-for-all is not resume worthy.
If I were an employer and saw this on a resume, I’d be like: “Wow. You went to UVA and participated in the Lite Moot Court competition. Congratulations on having a pulse.”

Where is UVA's dean on this? He/she needs to come out and let everyone know that:

1. No student should EVER be contacting a law firm regarding another student's recruiting with that firm

2. In the unlikely event that any law firm cares to check up on a student's participation in Lile, the school will verify it for them

Letting this thing fester for a few days like this is pathetic leadership

@317: UVA does have extramural moot court teams, and students have to try out for those. And frankly a lot of us who do it consider the Lile competition to be total bullshit. Maybe this scandal will cause UVA to rethink doing Lile in its current form at all.

Wouldn't an easy way to resolve this be to only have it added to resumes *after* some work is done? No one puts "law review" on a resume simply because they're thinking of doing the writing competition, but that's the current standard for listing moot court. Sure, it means the moot court line wouldn't be there for OCI, but when someone then notified employers that it was added it would actually mean something. Knowing that participating in moot court isn't a competitive thing - only advancing is - it holds as much weight when I'm reviewing resumes as listing playing on a section softball team.

this is why you do a journal and not moot court...

Totally reeks of no-offered 3Ls.... Losers!

I have taken note of the 2008-2009 Moot court board members. If any of them try to apply/interview at my firm I will give them a definite thumbs down. Total losers. I am still astounded they would send an email like this to 2L's going through the competition.

323, ditto. UVa law grad, and DITTO.

For a more accurate account...

http://www.uvalawblog.com/

I think the better question is, Why didn't the asshole who forwarded this to ATL do the right thing and notify the UVA dean instead? Looks to me like some loser who couldn't be bothered to write a 4 page brief in a half hour decided to tear up some innocent people's reputations instead. Great job, asshole. You just disrespected your whole law school in the process.

Kudos, 326. I have friends on the board who had no idea this went out until they saw it on ATL. The Chancellor was the person in charge of the gmail address used for Q&A. Pretty dick that she signed the whole board on for her decision without telling anyone!

At my school, the brief competition for Moot Court is done over spring break, with the oral argument competition a week after that. (During 1L year) This is done so the results are available for the 1Ls to list on resumes the following job hunting season, and before 2L OCI. There is no fee to participate, and no one would dare list that they were a competitor unless they actually made it onto the Board. Top 35 school = smart. UVA = ridiculous!

Whether it was the Chancellor or not is totally irrelevant. He/she has the power to speak for the board when it comes to enforcing rules. This was an existing rule. The Chancellor didn't create it. The email may have been a little harsh in tone, but it's accurate.

Elie-- you can disagree that this should be a rule (that you have to notify employers if you drop out of the competition), but it's not fair to trash the people who are enforcing the rules when it's their job to enforce them.

Also, if you're going to let the link to the board member's names stay up on the comments, you should out the 2L who tipped you.

Signed,

UVa-Moot-Court-withdrawal-who-did-contact-her -employers

I second 330--we all agreed to that rule that you have to notify employers if you drop out and have moot court on your resume. The rule is in the problem packet. They mentioned it at the info session. We knew it was a rule, and we agreed to it when we signed up to participate.

It's wrong to trash them for threatening to enforce the rules.

Being an actual UVA 3L, this is pretty damn shameful. There is a fine line between "enforcing the rules" and being a vindictive tool. I didn't even know who was running Lile this year so I looked it up. Yep, not surprised, both on the no-offer probability and the douche count. I know it's happened further up the thread, but let me just reiterate that most of us are very, very sorry that our public face is, for the moment, this small band of asshats. Way to go guys.

Personally, I'm ashamed that our public face is a bunch of self-entitled whiners who launch shameful and hurtful personal attacks against anyone who enforces even the most basic and sensible of rules.

The most basic and sensible of rules? You deserve your no-offer, kid.

Does any law firm actually care about participation in Moot Court? Law Review, maybe, but Moot Court, come on. Who cares whether a 2L participated in Moot Court or not?

Seems to me that there are some educational privacy laws that would be violated if a representative from the school contacted an unauthorized third party and discussed or disclosed student records.

Seems to me that there are some educational privacy laws that would be violated if a representative from the school contacted an unauthorized third party and discussed or disclosed student records.

Seems to me that there are some educational privacy laws that would be violated if a representative from the school contacted an unauthorized third party and discussed or disclosed student records.

Seems to me that there are some educational privacy laws that would be violated if a representative from the school contacted an unauthorized third party and discussed or disclosed student records.

Seems to me that there are some educational privacy laws that would be violated if a representative from the school contacted an unauthorized third party and discussed or disclosed student records.

@333: Looks like a no-offer on the Moot Court Board is a little butthurt!

333 here. Sad that people assume that the articulate person is both self-interested and DOESN'T have a job, while all the WHARRBGARBLing whiners are all suave and Big Law-friendly. I should've gone to med school.

Wow, even the names of the Board Members sounds douchey.

Wow, even the names of the Board Members sounds douchey.