Kaye Scholer: Splits First Year Class into Two Groups
Kaye Scholer has announced that its incoming first year associate will still be starting in January. All of them. But there is a catch. Kaye Scholer will split the class into two groups of full time associates. One group will work for the firm’s paying clients and get paid the normal first year starting salary. The other group — roughly half of the class — will work exclusively with the firm’s public interest group and will make $60,000.
Above the Law spoke with Kaye Scholer managing partner Barry Wilner about the program. He emphasized that the firm wanted to invite everybody in its first year class to start at the firm because the class is “excellent.” But he acknowledged that the demand for legal services isn’t what it used to be. Instead of sending half of its class back out on the street to look for public interest work, Wilner wanted to put them to work under the umbrella of Kaye Scholer’s pro bono efforts:
It’s incredibly difficult to get public interest work in this environment. … It’s a good thing from the standpoint that the firm is providing excellent public interest training and mentoring.
Wilner also told us that the public interest associates would still have access to all of the training other first year associates have, and they would be eligible for full firm benefits.
Associates weren’t asked to volunteer to be in the public interest group. Wilner said that the firm had to make difficult decisions about how to split the class. Practice group preference was one factor. But Wilner also said that because the incoming class was strong across the board, some amount of arbitrariness also played a role.
After the jump, incoming associates in the public interest group weigh in.
People in the public interest group were informed over the phone. They don’t appear to be happy about their suddenly reduced salary:
Just got a call from one of the Kaye Scholer hiring partners. They’ve made a dramatic change to our job offers. Incoming first-years are now to be paid just $60,000/year to do pro bono work starting in January. It is not optional. The real kicker, though, is that we are required to do pro bono work at the firm. We do not have the option to be paid to work at a non-profit, as other firms have allowed. This is particularly troublesome because it’s impossible to select a different market than New York for the interim period. Additionally, most of us took a $10,000 salary advance in August (assuming we’d be paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $160,000 starting in January), which has to be repaid out of the $60,000 salary. That means incoming New York first years are somehow expected to live and pay student loan bills on $50,000. Our peers at other firms at least had the option of taking a reduced salary to a different city where the cost of living is less.
Having to repay the August to January stipend is a common contention from our tipsters:
This is a new creative way to avoid rescinding offers: KS is bumping “about half” of its incoming first years (slated to start on 1/11) to an in-house “public interest program” where they will be doing pro bono work and getting paid $60K a year (and get health benefits). KS said in NY, the number is more than half. The $10K loan given over the deferral period is counted into the $60K, so the 2010 take home pay is $50K before taxes (based on a $60K salary). The full pay associates were chosen based on demand among groups (apparently people who wanted corporate and bankruptcy all got it), and from there it was seemingly random. As of now, there is no criteria for when you can switch to full pay track (aka what % of your work needs to be client work), and it is unclear what will happen at the end of 2010 if there is not enough client work to sustain all pro bono program people and all 2011 incoming associates. KS did make a point to say that we are all considered first-year associates regardless of pay.
Even when some incoming Kaye Scholer associates got over the financial situation, they still took umbrage with the suggestion that Kaye Scholer’s program constitutes the firm making good on its offer for employment:
They are presenting this as fulfilling their commitment to starting their first-years on schedule, which merely adds insult to injury. The fact that Kaye is a litigation-based shop, without any significant drop in (reported) 2008 profits, means that there is something they are not disclosing to the public about their financial situation, or they are either being incredibly opportunistic—even for Biglaw!—and think they can get away with it because, where else are their supposed first years gonna go?
Well, that is a good question. Where else are first years supposed to go? There is nothing stopping incoming Kaye Scholer associates from finding a $60K (or $50K depending on how you want to look at it) job in a secondary market and studying for the February bar — ssuming of course that such jobs exist.
Good luck, Kaye Scholer incoming associates. At least you don’t have figure out a clever way of updating your resume.
Earlier: Nationwide Pay Cut Watch: Kaye Scholer Lowballs Low Billers
Nationwide Layoff Watch: Kaye Scholer
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Comments
Firsty McFirstisen?
first
I'd rather have no job than this job. My heart goes out to those who got hosed.
2, FAIL.
- 1
I would volunteer for the second group. Wouldn't that get your loans forgiven in 10 years? Or some pro rata share based on years worked in public interest?
Kash is a real blue blood. She does it once a week out of obligation and with zero passion.
5 - no it doesn't work like that. There is no pro rata reduction for pro bono years, unless it is through a program offered by your school. The Government has some programs that will reduce the debt, but they require 10 full years of work in the sector.
Must be nice for incoming associates who signed leases already. That 160, just drop the 1 off the front of it.
Step 1: google "above the law"
step 2: note that one of the main suggestions is "anal sex/ butt sex"
step 3: refrain from making homophobic jokes at lat's expense but point it out in a comment to dissuade people from thinking their homophobic joke was in any way original
step 4: ???
Step 5: profit!!!
"incoming first year associate[...]All of them"
lolwut?
What sort of contact had the firm had prior to announcing this?
I know my husband already got confirmation of a specific date, a training schedule. Heck, he even had to pick out if he wanted a laptop or desktop. We're moving halfway across the country, so I assume they'll wouldn't go this far along and then pull something like this??
ATL needs to just start calling all the firms and get a solid list on what their January plans are!
Too bad Arent Fox couldn't be this creative. At least the public interest half will get some experience.
Kaye zones a science beside the executed pub. Class overflows beneath Kaye. The presented success pays the bishop. The critic lowers the intent tower. A hanging edge represents Class beside the calm. Kaye devastates your repetitive scroll beneath my satire.
How about some union action here?
If you are in the Pro Bono group, you just got fired. Sorry for the bad news.
I think this is an excellent idea. At least the class was not deferred and students have prospects of full time employment.
Hey Elie, you dope. At least try to get your opening sentence right.
Are they working in the New York office? Is your office mixed in with "regular" associates? Are you working with partners and associates who are working on pro bono cases? These are important questions. If you're shipped off to some other building to handle all of non-profit X's legal work, then yeah, I have to agree with 15 that you just got fired.
16 - They have no real prospects. Deferral would have been much better. The people who got stipends for working with joke public interest outfits have a year of 30 hours weeks and all the cheap drugs you can do ahead of them. These poor KS saps are going to have work real big firm hours in a real big firm environment (read: shitty) for less than half the pay. In short, they are the biggest suckers on the planet. I'd rather dig ditches.
Could someone from Kaye Scholer chime in on what contact the firm had with incoming associates prior to this announcement?
This is VERY late in the game to be doing this!
Does it suck worse than starting in January at 160K? Yes. But it's a hell of a lot better than a flat-out offer rescission. I'm curious how long this pro bono thing will go on before the 2nd group is called off the bench or told to take a hike.
Sorry 11, no solid list of January plans is possible because all these firms are floundering in some stage of their death throes.
I hope your hubby picked laptop so he can run off with it as compensation if necessary.
Let us join in communal prayer for the second group of associates who were in essence, constructively terminated. I hope members of the second group land on their feet when they hit the breadline. Don't be fooled by KS. This "eleemosynary" program is really what we call in the profession "getting the shaft."
I go up against Kaye Scholer on slip and falls all the time, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that they're a bunch of hacks. Not a single B.A.L. alum in the lot of them.
You want results? Go Gambini. From the time you walk in the door, I'll make you feel right at home. My secretary, Gloria, makes a ricotta cheescake that will knock you out of your gators, and I'll validate your parking free of charge.
草他大爷的
Agree with 19, you are in the office, working late nights, basically auditioning for the possibility of becoming a full associate in 2011, all for what amounts to 50k.
How will a Pro Bono associate be able to look a true 1st year in the eye knowing the 1st year is making 100k more than he is?
This has disaster written all over it.
24 = funniest schtick in years here.
You got fired. Shit one.
The ship be sinking...
This is VERY late in the game. Holy crap.....
You can't spell SUCKS without KS.
I think this is a good deal. The pay might suck, but at least you can put this law firm on your resume, instead of some stupid non-profit. Plus, you get all the same training and chances to mingle with the people at the firm. And the fact that the partners chose who went wear and did not pussy-foot around and make it "optional" is really refreshing.
Last night I fingered Mistress Emeritus in the ass.
Those kids just got fired.
This is so like Kaye Scholer. They always wait until the last minute to make the most idiotic decision. The worst decision I made in my life was summering at Kaye Scholer.
26 nailed it. This is gonna be awkward for incoming KS folks who thought they were equals.
I wonder what other firms will pull something like this over the next few weeks. The public interest crowd better be prepared to put in an incredible amount of face time-your future position at the firm and yes, even your entire career, hinges upon it.
This is great news for KS first years. Everyone gets to start on time, nobody gets laid off, and when things pick up they can go back to working in the firm's normal practice areas.
How far can it sink, Sugar Ray?
"This is a new creative way to avoid rescinding offers: KS is bumping “about half” of its incoming first years (slated to start on 1/11)"
you mean (slated to start on 1/10)
Mission Accomplished!
what is this firm ranked?
I think this is a pretty decent move by KS if you read between the lines. The firm is basically telling these associates that they are not needed and should look elsewhere but are welcome to hang around for a token salary until they do. It sure beats being put out on the street like 37 of the 48 MGuire Woods associates and all the other firms that dumped half or more of their summer class.
There is so much crap, I don't know where to begin.
Kaye is mostly a litigation firm, yet most of the first years they shafted were litigators. Even within the litigation group, did they just throw darts to choose who gets shafted? And lastly, do they really expect anyone with law school loans to even be able to eat and wear a law firm wardrobe on $50k?
How do you spell Promisawry Estoppol?
start job hunting kids!
At least those who are given the $60k option can look for other work in the meantime without the stigma of being unemployed.
Here's the reality:
Kaye didn't need the entire summer class.
They had three options:
1) Rescind 50% offers
2) Cut everyone's salary to 110k and make everyone do half pro-bono work and half real work
3) Do what they are doing.
The reality is that, though #2 seems like the "fairest" option, it will lead to everyone being disgruntled and the best people shortly leaving the firm in the next 2 - 3 years as (if) lateral prospects improve.
Here, they are basically telling the 60K half of the class, "We'll defer you another year, but we want some work for the money. MAYBE we'll have space for you. But you are on notice to start looking for work elsewhere."
In the end, I think it could have been worse. However, the timing was brutal, especially for those who have already signed leases.
33,
Mistress Emeritus was drowned by PE. So that's just weird.
Kaye Scholer Management Committee Associate Representative here - I don't understand what the uproar is. We are offering our incoming Pro Bono Associates an opportunity to do what they love at a very generous income. People don't go to law school to work at a big firm, they go to reshape our world. We are giving them the chance to do so. It is a wonderful move by Kaye Scholer.
Take umbrage "at," not "with." idiot.
Take umbrage "at," not "with." idiot.
44- 50K plus benefits are a lot better than $0, outstanding loans and no job prospects given this economy.
I would rather be in the public interest group than at home, masturbating or spanking Mrs. Emeritus and feeling sorry for myself.
"At least those who are given the $60K option can look for other work in the meantime without the stigma of being unemployed."
Bullshit. The first question from an interviewer will be "what are you working on at Kaye?" And your answer will be: "Some pro bono projects."
Every employer will know that you are one of the kids Kaye demoted and doesn't want. This is no different from being unemployed.
This is pathetic. KS area bunch of hacks and they should be ashamed.
How did they decide who would be included int he 160k group vs. the 60k group?
Do not encourage these 'tards.
So it's over for Kaye Scholer, basically. They are just going to hunker down and see how long they can keep the firm open. Over/under is February 2012.
This is actually pretty early in the game... it's not even November.
It is good to see that Lat has started editing Elie's posts. Before he posted it, one of the paragraph's originally read: "Associates weren’t asked to volunteer to be in the public interest group. Wilner said that the firm had to make difficult decisions about how to split the class. Practice group preference was one factor. But Wilner also said that because the incoming class was strong across the board, some amount of arbitrariness also played a role. And by arbitrariness Wilner meant race. " Glad to know Lat is cutting down on Elie's race bating.
This is BULLSHIT! Do not let KS get away with this or it will happen in other firms. VOICE YOUR DISGUST loud and clear. If my firm calls me tomorrow and says "hey there's been a small change...you're now starting at 60K" I am going to...
...cry.
KS has been pretending to run with lockstep for a long time. Why not just abandon lockstep, reduce EVERYONES salaries and not screw half your incoming associates?
53,
Mrs. Emeritus is dead. You are a weird dude.
Why didn't they just offer a year-long public interest deferral back in like February when all the other firms did? This is pretty rough considering many people have probably signed leases.
How can you people argue about that status of the imaginary members of the imaginary "Emeritus" family?
Sad, really.
Reminds me of the losers who knew the floorplan of the starship enterprise or who argue about the correct conjugation of "stun" in Clingon.
This gives me a good idea: ATL should run a contest to determine the best memes in the site's history. I bet PE and JaKe will come in close to 10th.
"you're a DOUCHE" and "guys in my high school . . ." FTW!!!!!!
Who the HELL has signed leases ALREADY? I thought you couldn't find an apt in NYC until one month beforehand, MAX. 2-3 weeks, typically.
63,
it's not "you're a DOUCHE"
it's "YOU are a douche!"
Douche.
But I agree that the contest would be a hit.
Every kiss (of death) begins with Kaye
63, it's Klingon, not "Clingon."
Seriously, use a dictionary (preferably Klingon-English).
Michele Caruso-Cabrera's breasts are looking lovely this afternoon.
My economic policies will save or create 4 million jobs. Unfortunately that will still leave 146 million of you unemployed. But this isn't about me. I have great health insurance.
I'm Barack Obama?
Boo hoo hoo. You have a job offer to make 60K. Lots of people would kill for that right now. If you don't like it, dont accept it.
How many people were/are in KS's incoming class? Was it the "typical" 2008 overinflated class?
it was foolish to blindly assume your 160k job offer was still going to be honored in this economic climate- many deferred associates will never start working at their firms at all.
random thought: when i see kaye scholer...my eye is drawn to the kaye part, and i am reminded of kanye west and his terrible ways haha. kaye is very close to kanye.
-really bored 2L.
The partnership should be laying off themselves for such atrocious mismanagement. 50% of the class!?! Sounds like the partners are running around with their heads chopped off. I would not hire them as outside counsel if they can't even manage their own affairs.
"And lastly, do they really expect anyone with law school loans to even be able to eat and wear a law firm wardrobe on $50k? "
Welcome to the world that 95% of graduating law students inhabit. Oh, I forgot, you went to a "top" school and are entitled to that 160K year job. Guess what, you spoiled princess? Life is unfair.
Erin Burnett is so cute.
"And lastly, do they really expect anyone with law school loans to even be able to eat and wear a law firm wardrobe on $50k? "
Welcome to the world that 95% of graduating law students inhabit. Oh, I forgot, you went to a "top" school and are entitled to that 160K year job. Guess what, you spoiled princess? Life is unfair.
54 - The pro bono kids will probably have better experience, because if they're smart, they can pick up real substantive work that junior associates never see on larger "real" projects.
"So what have you been working on?"
"I drafted and filed numerous motions, including briefing on the merits. I deposed several witnesses, including cross examinations. I also argued a motion in court, and have several more scheduled."
Isn't it entirely likely that a good number of paralegals at KS will be pulling more salary than the pro-bonos?
Pathetic.
49 and 61,
Reading comprehension fail. Mrs. Emeritus I and II are both dead at the hands of PE. My activity was with Mistress Emeritus who is very much alive.
- 33
I congratulate those who understand that KS just laid off half the incoming associates. There's little way any incoming associate could live on $50K in Manhattan, plus pay anything on their loans. You have been asked to leave, so just leave rather than be further humiliated in front of the other attorneys in the firm. As for litigation, I know for a fact that KS has lost several huge litigation clients in the recent past. Many staff attorneys and counsels have already been laid off due to these lost clients. With most major companies moving to a firms outside of New York and the BigLaw circle, there's little chance KS will ever again see the days where they could fuck over clients to the tune of tens of millions of dollars a year in fees. Getting rid of litigation associates is a logical step for them to take. This is just the start for you poor suckers who think practicing law is the road to easy street.
'Tis a shame. The KS Executive Committee is undermining the good work of the firm's talented attorneys, staffers and recruiters.
Here's an idea, give the lit admin partner $60K instead of the hefty salary he draws in.
Kaye Scholer has effectiveley reduced first year salaries to $110K without having to take the PR hit. Do the math.
All attorneys are equals, but some are more equal than others.
44- KS did not just shaft litigators....the incomings are barely attorneys. Let's think rationally, now.
For all of you who think that the Kaye treatment is a good move...let me remind you that plenty of other firms have started their FULL class of incoming associates at FULL salary. There are other ways to make it work rather than paying lawyers less than paralegals!
82, when are you going to realize that BigLaw exists for the partners. The associates are the mules who plow the fields. When not needed, they get shot and eaten. At least KS isn't eating those being laid off.
More DECHERT LAYOFFS coming in corporate/securities. Please report, Lat/Elie.
First off, Kaye is not "mostly" a litigation firm; about 50% of it's revenue come from Lit. It's not Quinn.
Wow.... it sure would suck to be one of the "second class" associates.
What they should do is cut billable rates 20% and lower salaries across the board for every non-rainmaker.
Take the $60K (really $50). Try to make up the other $100K in free coffee, soda, notepads, pens, other people's lunches, whatever. Just don't get got caught since you're already stigmatized and getting fired would only add to it. Try to find another job ASAP, but your chances are about the same as being hit by lightning.
86, but paying lawyers less than paralegals is an excellent way to make a point...time to leave, better yet don't come at all.
Maybe Obama's plan to create 3.5 million new jobs is to take 3.5 million high paying jobs and split them into 7 million low paying jobs at less than half the salary. This is a good start.
Change we can believe in.
39:
The sky's the limit!
Very magnanimous offer by KS. To put it in perspective
a proofreader at a large NY law firm makes 55K, full
benefits, no student loan debt.
A union could prevent lawyer wages from dipping below those of paralegals. But you people are too conservative for a union, aren't you? Well, you can't be conservative if you're poor.
91, they could rob a bank, get caught and sent to jail, and then have a very successful jailhouse practice. With all the butt fucking and dick sucking, it would almost be like being an associate at KS.
Wow the title to this post is misleading...It should read "Kaye Scholer f*cks half its incoming associates without lube"
KS - lower billable rates and you won't have these problems. Ever heard of supply and demand?
I would totally eat the lobster out of Kash's ass.
ShaFeef
This is actually a good thing for the associates in the pro bono group. They will be forced to live in a roach infested hovel in order to stretch the 50k. Once they're used to it, they will be able to bank a higher percentage of their salary once they are brought on as full-time "real" associates.
Look, it's a shitty offer, but it beats unemployment. And since when did KS (or any other firm) require their employees to live in Manhattan? Class of 2009, meet Reality. It Bites.
This is actually a good thing for the associates in the pro bono group. They will be forced to live in a roach infested hovel in order to stretch the 50k. Once they're used to it, they will be able to bank a higher percentage of their salary once they are brought on as full-time "real" associates.
100/102, though every associate once lived as a student.
The second class associates should work as secretaries for the first class.
- KS FIRST CLASS
If you are going to be paid 60, take the offer and start building your skills, but it would be much better to go work for the government. Then you'd have faster salary growth, more stability, in most cases you'd be doing more for the public good than public interest lawyers anyway, and most importantly, at most places you'd be practicing at a much, much higher level.
105: Who are you kidding? Government will soon be doing MASSIVE layoffs. Wait and see.
What a crappy thing to do. To require some to stay in NY and work for $60k ($10k of which the firsties have already spent) is just silly. They should have just cut first year salaries across the board.
Don't worry: Pretty soon "volunteering" with a group like Planned Parenthood will be compulsory. Just think: You'll be helping your country and improving your health by working the fields at harvest time, just like the comrades of my buddy Fidel in Cuba. Guess what happens if you refuse.
- Barack Hussein Obama
If you are going to cut salaries by 100k, don't you think you could forgive that 10k stipend?
54- there is a huge difference b/w this plan and being unemployed. With the former, you can actually get substantive experience, a salary, and a firm name to put on your resume.
Although other employers might be aware of the situation, with the latter situation, you have . . . nothing.
If this is going to become the norm, we have to get some legislation going for loan forgiveness. How can anyone in this position be expected to make payments?
Drinker Biddle laying off people! Get on this Ellie!
This must be the strangest path to full time pro bono work in the history of the profession. Sure, some of these folks probably intended to lots of pro bono work, so while this comes as a financial hit, it's not a disaster to them.
But what about the associates who really wanted nothing more than BigLaw enslavement in exchange for ReallyBigBucks? Some of them will be doing pro bono work full time, for an extended time?! The clients of this group might be better off pro se.
109 COMMENT OF THE YEAR~~~
Did Willner disclose how much of a pay cut he and other partners were taking? Didn't think so.
Um, lots of kids who were deferred for a year and given 60K chose to do their pro bono gigs in NYC - even kids with law school debt. Everyone here assumes that all pro bono associates would rather leave NYC than stay there with 60K, but that simply isn't true at all.
80,
Commenter 53 clearly said "Mrs. Emeritus"
61
This is so fucked up I don’t even know where to begin. First, why did Kaye Scholer wait so long before making this decision? What has changed since August/September? Incoming associates aren’t entitled to $160k, but they are entitled to be treated as human beings. People have likely already made plans, and now they wake up to find that they will only be earning a fraction of what they expected.
Second, this firm is essentially creating two classes of associates. How can these associates—who will be living two completely different lifestyles—be expected to work in the same office? It’s just plan evil to divide up the class like this and then have them work side-by-side.
Third, more firms will definitely be taking a similar approach, especially given ATL’s quasi support for this type of action.
Associates being placed on the pro bono track aren’t being demoted or effectively terminated. They’re being given an opportunity.
Pro bono track associates are going to be able to work closely on numerous small, substantive projects with partners, counsel, and senior associates. If they’re aggressive, they’ll cultivate contacts within the organizations seeking help that will, in the future, lead to greater opportunities for themselves and the firm.
Pro bono track associates need to realize that this is the opportunity to define themselves on their own terms, instead of as just another cog reviewing documents for those “paying clients.” If they passionately seize this chance, success will eventually follow.
106-how do you figure? Govt. NEVER shrinks...and it certainly won't under the current regime.
How many people got moved into the pro bono group???? 50% of what number?
stupid move. better idea would have just been to brought everybody back to the 125k scale. if theres extra money. just give a bonus
106: How do you figure? Govt. NEVER shrinks...and it certainly won't under this regime.
~GOVT. SECURE
there were like 35 summers in NYC this affects i think
"Second, this firm is essentially creating two classes of associates"
This is a very important point. This is going to affect even the people who are on the $160 scale. How weird are they going to feel? If they go out for drinks after work for associate-bonding do they feel bad for splitting the check evenly? Is this the end of associate-bonding?
so maybe 16-20 were put in the public interest group
125: First year associates with student loans to pay on a $50k salary are not going out for drinks in nyc...
125: First year associates with student loans to pay on a $50k salary are not going out for drinks in nyc no matter how you split it...
As a deferred associate, this option seems perfectly appropriate. It's unfortunate that KS couldn't provide more notice, but given the choice between a firing and a pro bono pay cut, I would take the latter in a minute.
123 - I am working in a state's AG office. This office has 10 deferred associates working here for free (getting paid firm stipends). One week after these 10 associates came, the AG laid off 10 paid lawyers on the same floor. The AG himself even said that the deferred associates could not have come at a better time because of recent govt budget cuts.
So let me get this straight - class of '09 kids who managed to get an offer at a better firm got 60k to go do whatever the hell they want for a year, whereas kids at KS get 60k to still work full time, and in reality still bust your ass just as hard as the 160k people because now you are auditioning for a job? This is unreal.
I am an incoming '09 at one of the shops who gave an optional 60k go do whatever deferral, and while I didn't take it, a bunch of my friends did. I am constantly bombarded by emails and facebook updates talking about what a cool time they are having in Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, etc. They may or may not be screwing their careers up (I personally don't think they will be treated any differently than the regular '10s when it all shakes out), but at least they are taking the vacation of a lifetime on the firm's dime. The KS incomings get the same money to work full time? Other than Lathaming most of your first year class, this is the single shittiest move I have seen yet.
130: I was referring to Fed. Govt. And once Obamacare is passed, states will be swimming in additional fed. funding...
- 123
I thought involuntary servitude and slavery were abolished by the 13th amendment. I mean that is essentially what they are doing to these kids--forcing them to work to the bone for a little more than they could make at Starbucks.
How many billables do they have to do?
If they get to do like 1400-1500 a year, they should be happy. They'll get WAY better experience (b/c all the associates only get experience from their pro bono work anyway) and a better life quality.
How many billables do they have to do?
If they get to do like 1400-1500 a year, they should be happy. They'll get WAY better experience (b/c all the associates only get experience from their pro bono work anyway) and a better life quality.
133, yes obviously every job that makes you work for a salary of $60k a year violates the 13th Amendment.
Separate but equal...perfectly reasonable
how about the fact KS waited until OCI recruiting ended to do this
Given that the one given the second pro bono option are Lit people, there is an opportunity to come away with some substantive skills in litigation. If the second option was for ppl interested in Corp, it would be much harder to gain skills for professional develpoment.
But this still has to feel pretty shitty to know they (KS) basically didn't want you as much as they wanted the ones coming in as regular associates.
If you can get past ego and pay cut, there really is a silver lining. But of course most (self-entitled law students) will take this as an opportunity to complain and bitch and will have nothing to show after the end of the year besides that 50K.
Why does everyone think there's so much "public interest" work out there that is appropriate for attorneys with no experience to be doing?
I'm a KS income first year who made the cut and will be making 160k. With all the ass kissing I did last summer I certainly deserve it. All I can say is that I can't wait to make my 60k inferiors go on coffee runs for me while I do the real work.
I trust KS did the right thing and put all the affirmative action hires in the pro bono group. Yeah, sure!
141- what group?
141, you can bang the chicks in the ass, either before or after coffee.
I'm not a self-entitled law student, I've been in practice for over 10 years and there is no silver-lining behind this. This is a way for KS to push out these people without going through the "apparent" reputation hit by flat-out rescinding the offers.
Contrary to popular belief, a lot of pro bono cases don't result in many substantive skills, at least those transferable to an eventual position with paying clients. To the extent these associates always wanted to work for Legal Aid you may have a point. But doing landlord-tenant cases for poor people isn't going to help you get landlord-tenant cases for paying clients since they don't exist.
And as others have mentioned, they aren't going to have $50K to show for it as they would if they were just paid off to leave. Some of the incoming associates that don't currently live in NYC are going to have to make a decision that moving themselves (and their families if present) to one of the most expensive cities and will have to pay some sort of rent.
Finally, on top of the lower class and lower salary standing, there's no guarantee that KS won't let them go if the public interest work dries up (which is also saturated with all of the laid off attorneys looking for something to do), at least if the $160K crowd gets laid off they get much better unemployment benefits. What does a $60K give you in unemployment?
This is a disaster, the legal profession has never been in such a quagmire. If I'm a 1L even at Harvard I'd question my commitment if I'm going into considerable debt.
the pro bono starters are gonna HATE their regular starting colleagues!
146 - But when is that new? Pro bono concerns and so-called "public interest" lawyers have hated BigLaw forever. Their lawyers couldn't break in to the big leagues so they ended up in the low-paying pro bono world dealing with the dregs of society. Of course they are bitter.
Junior associate layoffs at Paul Weiss. Get on it Elie.
144, we 160k incoming associates are going to look mad sexy next to our 60k counter-parts. I'm sure we are going to get a lot more ass.
What--if anything--did the firm tell the incomings who are getting 160k? Did they call them as well?
147 -- you're a moron. Up until this year, it was 10x harder to get a public interest job than your high paying corporate gig. Believe it or not, some people went to law school to help society, not just make money. And such people tend to be smart; clearly smarter than you.
Not smart enough to take the high road though.
"Up until this year, it was 10x harder to get a public interest job than your high paying corporate gig."
Ummm, that's a no. It might have been difficult to get a public interest job that paid you enough to survive, but there have always been public interest positions where one can work for free, and since you went to law school to help society, and not just make money, that shouldn't be a problem, right?
11 ...why do you think ATL has that kind of pull?
How this will play out:
Partner: Ummmm.....yeeeeaaaaaaahhhh, we're gonna need to go ahead and move you downstairs into storage B. We have some new people coming in that we'll be paying $160k, and we need all the space we can get. So if you could just go ahead and pack up your stuff and move it down there, that would be terrific, OK?
Second Class Associate: Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler...and $100k of the rest of my salary......I could burn the building down....
See this for what it really is.
KS wants to fire these incoming associates without taking the reputation hit.
1 - If KS just wants to help them instead of firing them, why not do a 1 yr public interest deferral, giving associates the opportunity to choose non-profit and location?
2 - If all the associates are "excellent" as KS claims it is, then provide $120k starting salary across the board, and let everyone do some pro-bono. Again, KS just wants to avoid the reputational hit.
It's a nice strategic move, but it really screws over those incoming associates. Other firms have taken the much higher road by firing their incoming associates but providing a stipend to cushion the blow.
KS wants these associates to disappear, but doesn't want to provide any stipend, after stringing them along all these months. What a classy firm.
Don't u guys get it. This will all count towards KS' pro bono hours! this way when the pro bono rankings come out they can talk about how wonderful they are...That would not be the case if the first years are allowed to work whereever they want....
Enough already! Who gives a shit about these law grads? Not me, that's for damn sure. Fuck them, and fuck KS too. Only a fool plays with the devil, without getting their due. You fat ass BigLaw summer associates think you're shit don't stink. Well, now you know what it's like to smell to high heaven. You guys are in a world of shit, so you best get out your spoons.
Too bad KS didn't have the kind of partners who could generate business and billables. There are a lot of lit shops that are cooking right now.
148: how bad? Was it the freshly minted 2nd years?
155: Since you're already down here, it would be great if you could get a can of pesticide and take care of the cockroach problem we've been having in here. For now, why don't you get a flashlight and a can of pesticide and...
@150: I'm one of the incoming $160K associates. One of the hiring partners called yesterday to inform me of the changes and which track I was on. They gave a spiel about how great they were for thinking of this, and told us to contact them with any questions. My heart goes out to my colleagues: it would have been much kinder to give them a lump payment of $50/$60K to go away so that they could devote themselves full-time to finding a serious job, even one outside the legal profession.
Thanks, 162. It's funny--and speaks to the great divide between partners and incoming associates--that they actually think this is a good deal. Are they insane? Seriously.
162 -
What did the firm say about your start date prior to this announcement?
162- what group you in?
130-same here
I and other 8 deferred associates started working for the law department of a major city since Oct. The city laid off 5 attorneys recently. Now everyone in the department hate us.
It's official -- the class of 2009 is officially the "lost generation".
We will start hearing about the suicides shortly...
I got a call yesterday from one of the KS hiring partners, informing me that I was in the $160K group. He congratulated me and wished me well with my start. I told him to fuck off, saying that I wanted one of those cush $60K public interest jobs. He couldn't believe what I was saying, so I said it again, this time adding, "I just fucked your wife" at the end.
If I were one of the Pro-Bono associates, and I was asked to do one minute of paying-client work, I'd be furious (inside).
167, the class of 2009 isn't the last generation. The class of 2010 is well and truly fucked.
169 here. I'd also feel awkward if, as a 160k associate, I ended up doing a bunch of pro-bono work.
170 -
Your analysis is spot on. The classes of 2009 and 2010, by all objective metrics, are the two weakest classes of law students since the 1970s. Employers have taken note of this fact and have adjusted their hiring strategy accordingly.
The good ol' days of hiring loads and loads of highly-qualified '04s and '05s are long gone. Well, except in the lateral market.
172: Think of a new shtick -- this one is neither original nor interesting anymore. And, not that you're serious, but take LSAT scores as your objective metric. Back in 2000-2001, you could easily get T14 or even T6 with a low to mid 160s score. Now a mid 160s score might not even get you T14 so give me a break about this "all objective measures" crap. 04-05 grads with the same GPA and LSAT would be going to much crappier law schools if they reapplied today.
169: While facetious, your comment raises an interesting point:
What happens when these kids get asked to do real billable work? Will they be billed out at the first year rate? (I assume that rate has to be at least $200-$250? as an aside, i'd love to know what associates at various are billed out at .) Will they get overtime, or extra compensation for the late nights and weekends spent helping on document reviews?
I think what we're really seeing is a true stratification in the ranks of young attorneys. This is the Staff Attorney phenomenon taken to a new level.
173: using mediocre performers like "mid-160s" LSAT people isn't the best way to make a point - nobody cares about these dime a dozen types
@164: they announced the January start date last spring along with everyone else, so the firm can't be blamed for delay on that score.
I'm at a loss for words. This is such an ugly thing to do. I know many of you are annoyed with me, but I really am a hardcore capitalist. I think KS should cut half of the incoming associates if that's what it needs to do to stay profitable and keep current associates busy.
What I take issue with, however, is stringing the incoming associates along -- literally, dangling a carrot in front of them -- for months upon months. What has changed since August? If they didn't know, with 100% certainty, that they could take on these kids in August, they should have made the cut then.
These firms want to pick and chose in which ways they behave like real businesses. On the one hand, they want to provide minimal job security like businesses do; on the other hand, they are so concerned about their reputations, that they are often paralyzed and unable to act when necessary.
And if the partners at KS think they are being innovative by doing this, they are delusional. Seriously, I want what they are smoking. All they will accomplish is to create a nightmarish scenario with a class divide akin to the fucking Titanic.
176: So they had no contact to you until now? If they had no contact with you since the spring I guess this announcement is not as much of a surprise. My firm and at least several others have reconfirmed start dates, sent tax forms, etc., in recent weeks. I took the reconfirmation as a good sign, but I'm still too paranoid to sign a lease.
Talk about undermining any sort of solidarity by creating a sub-class of associates at the firm. What a truly horrible idea on all counts.
Do they really have that much public interest work at KS to entertain that many associates full-time? Are they going to let the PI assoc work part-time at least, since its OVER a 50% cut?
$60K??? My guess is that most of the paralegal at KS make more than $60K. Boy, do I love the law and the opportunity it gives me to work with the finest, most ethical, and understanding people in the world. I guess if I'm a KS associate I can get a job selling insurance at night to help pay my rent and my student loans.
$60K??? My guess is that most of the paralegals at KS make more than $60K. Boy, do I love the law and the opportunity it gives me to work with the finest, most ethical, and understanding people in the world. I guess if I'm a KS associate I can get a job selling insurance at night to help pay my rent and my student loans.
$60K??? My guess is that most of the paralegals at KS make more than $60K. Boy, do I love the law and the opportunity it gives me to work with the finest, most ethical, and understanding people in the world. I guess if I'm a KS associate I can get a job selling insurance at night to help pay my rent and my student loans.
KS kinda sounds like Walmart. They keep employee salaries just low enough to allow them to qualify for food stamps and general relief.
175: You're missing the point. Many of the current mid-level associates who went to school like CCN in the early part of the decade got into those schools with mid-160 LSAT scores. 172's flame said that under all objective metrics, the classes of 2009-2010 are weaker than the classes of 2004-2005. This makes no sense given the falling admissions rates and the rising LSAT, GPA numbers. Many T6 grads from 04-05 would be going to T20-T30 schools if they reapplied today.
Can we get a consensus and Kay Scholer to the dissolution pool.
So far, we have:
Reed Smith
Kay Scholer
Proskauer
Cooley
This is truly an awful idea....did they even think this through? This is going to be a disaster on so many levels.
"Can we get a consensus and Kay Scholer to the dissolution pool.
So far, we have:
Reed Smith
Kay Scholer
Proskauer
Cooley"
All good choices, I'd add:
MWE
Dechert
Winstead
Williams Mullen
Morris & Mannin.
I could not imagine walking into Kaye Scholer as a member of the "pro bono group." Talk about the new untouchables.
My first thought was that this is better than a layoff....you know...suck it up and get in there, put it on your resume, impress some people along the way, find another job, or maybe even wait and see if things turn around hoping that they'll make you a "real" associate.
But no, fuck that. There is no way I would allow myself to be humiliated like this. And that's exactly what it would be: humiliating. You will be a second class citizen...a pity hire. This is absolutely deplorable. I hope a good number of you tell the firm to f*ck off. Doing that would really hurt the firm's image.
I cannot BELIEVE a big firm has taken it to this.....
Seriously, imagine walking in there as a pro bono associate. You are working alongside CLASSMATES who, by the flip of a coin, are making almost 3X as much as you! Your commute is 1 hour+; they take a 7 minute subway ride from the village. You have to lunch at mcdees (dollar menu); they get taken for $50 meals by partners. They marry trophy wives; you can't afford to take anyone on a date.
The partners who made this decision must be completely disconnected from reality.
I do have to feel some degree of sympathy for the "pro bono associates"... it would be quite humiliating to show up on the first day along with the "real associates." Why KS couldn't have offered a public interest option months ago like many other firms is bizarre...how clueless can you be??
"Can we get a consensus and Kay Scholer to the dissolution pool.
So far, we have:
Reed Smith
Kay Scholer
Proskauer
Cooley"
All good choices, I'd add:
MWE
Dechert
Winstead
Williams Mullen
Morris & Mannin.
Also maybe Squire Dempsey?
Also to watch, but for major structural problems short of dissolution:
Clifford
White & Case.
192 - why Reed Smith and MWE? Both seem to be doing fine.
As a member of the "second class" of incoming associates I have to say that this new "offer" and the attitude of KS management with regard to it is highly insulting and degrading. They are acting like they are doing us a big favor by allowing us to come do their pro bono work for less than half what our more valued peers will be making. If I wanted to try and live in NYC (and I don't care what borough we're talking about) on $60k a year with almost $150k in debt then I would do it for something I'm exceptionally passionate about. I want to respect myself at the end of the day, and not be constantly worried about whose butt I need to be kissing to try and secure a real position. I believe that working in this environment would be mentally abusive, to say the least. This is one "second class" citizen who would rather not be a lawyer than subject myself to this humiliation. And for those of you who really think this is a great option I ask you to please remove your heads from your asses before speaking again. Thanks.
Bottom line: law firms hired this associate class in Fall 2007, and now we're in a major global recession that nobody foresaw at the time. There is no way for any firm to deal w/ this sh*t storm w/o at least some associates getting screwed. The KS associates will get paid $60k, w/ benefits, and have the opportunity to build a half-way decent resume. It's not perfect, but would it be better to have your offer rescinded and get $60k to sit at home and do bong hits?
174, try $380/hour for KS first years in NY.
195 -
Fair enough. But why didn't they do this 4-6 months ago?
194,
I am also one of the " second class" associates. This is degrading. We have precious little information about this decision. I feel like KS wants us to quit, or kiss ass because we got this hand out. This whole situation is screwed up.
i would literally tell them to fuck off.
194 -- so, have you declined KS's "highly insulting and degrading" offer? If you can swing a better gig in this economy w/o one day of real experience, then more power to you.
200 -
Yes, i told the partner who called me I didn't think it would work.
What are people crying that they should have been told 4 months ago? What would you have done differently? If you signed a lease this far in advance, then that's some fairly misguided judgment. If you think you've missed a bunch of great opportunities in the past four months, then you're more disconnected from reality than KS partners.
The other problem here is that the firm did not let everyone know about this before it offered the $10K salary advance for August-January. That means that anyone who took the advance is $10K in debt to the firm, so declining the pro bono offer doesn't just take them to 0, it leaves them $10,000 in the hole. Far better to just give people a severance package and be done with it.
Someone mentioned unions earlier in the comments. Even though there is nothing these second class associates can legally do, can they protest outside the building? Now that there are a bunch of them that have been screwed they should form a picket line and disrupt as much of Kaye's operations as possible (assuming there even is any)...
Second Class Citizen here, keep in mind that we aren't promised the $60k-10k. We are promised now a bi-weekly paycheck based on that figure. We could, and probably will be, let go before we can even get our hands on that paltry salary.
I understand taht a pro bono team with new associates and one partner in corporate is being formed at Kaye Scholer. It will be traveling to homeless shelters and jails in Westechester to help teach parenting skills.
I understand that a pro bono team with new associates and one partner in corporate is being formed at Kaye Scholer. It will be traveling to homeless shelters and jails in Westechester to help teach parenting skills.
26 is dead on.
This is a disaster. They should have cut them loose to do pro bono anywhere they wanted. I know some reservations in S.D. that need legal help and you can live like a king for $50k in Rosebud.
Friggin' disaster.
202, you insensitive prick, you are missing the point. The issue is that they could have easily let us know earlier, if not only for peace of mind. Some of us have families that we planned on moving across the country.
I know plenty of twenty-five-year olds who live in Manhattan on annual salaries around $50,000. And, yes, they have debt from undergrad, MFA programs, etc. I
209 - the later and later the firms wait to inform associates that they won't start, the more vulnerable they are to section 90 claims. I think sooner or later, associates can reasonably rely on an offer and sign leases, incur expenses to move, etc.
210: No you do not. You know kids with rich parents. Why don't you remove the silver spoon before talking douche.
And just in case that case across a little harsh. $50k after federal, state and nyc tax is about $32,500 a year. Law school loan repayment without having any loans for cost of living expenses throughout law school can total close to $2,000 a month in payments.--totaling $24,000 a year. Leaving douched out pro bono first years with $8,500 for food, rent and clothing. Needless to say, you cant even afford a shared apartment anywhere in manhattan on that salary. So once again, you don't know plenty of people in the same situation making it so just STFU
194, I truly sympathize with you and your peers. It's not just the economics of this situation that suck (and surely it does), there is a personal element to this that I think the partners didn't think all the way through.
That said, if I were in your shoes, I'd accept the offer. I'd feel no choice, given that I'd have been living off of their 10k salary advance, not to mention barbri reimbursement.
The best move here I think is to accept the offer and start looking for another job immediately...especially in smaller markets or even nonlaw jobs.
While you are there, try your best to get on a trial or something in court. Do your best to avoid the truly shitlaw...aka housing court, or anything involving landlord/tenant law.
If you can get good cases with a lot of responsibility, you will actually be better prepared for a lateral move into a public defender-type position or small law litigation shop than your "real" associate counterparts.
As for Kaye Scholer - I agree with 213. They definitely did not think the personal elements of this through -- more evidence that lawyers are terrible managers.
This really sucks. I'll bet KS pays its paralegals and its secretaries more than $60K a year. I agree that the firm should have just "fired" the extra associates and given them a severance package. It is beyond belief that they expect these people to pay back their stipends. I don't think I've heard of a suckier play in my life.
i think you could credibly threaten them with a lawsuit if they tried to recover the barbri reimbursement and bar fees...
The job market is so bad that the firm could have insisted that the incoming class work for free and pay rent for their desks and they still would have had people signing up for it. I wonder how many of the 60 a year crowd left? If anyone did the firm would be able to replace the person within minutes.
160,000 a year is far too much money for an incoming associate and it always has been. The economics never made sense and the people that planned on that salary are now in the same boat as the people that thought their house would continue to increase in value.
Shame on the law schools for not looking after their students. Where are the law school deans while this is happening?