Worst area of law ever! bar none.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C85tJflYb4s

First to say that bride's a butterface.

at least you get to bang the disgruntled and vulnerable divorcees and they are grateful for it.....or so I have heard ;)

5 - I think you've been watching too much "Desperate Housewives."

Why can't we comment on the fashion copyright post? Here is a link to a sick article by Prof. Sprigman. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=878401

And the downsides:

* working for some rather difficult bosses (a problem at small firms more generally; you can’t hide from them like you can at big firms);
* poor compensation given the hours (higher than when he was in Biglaw); and
* overly demanding clients, who would demand the sun and the moon and then stars (and then complain about their bills — despite being very high-net-worth individuals).

Welcome to SmallLaw generally!

8 - you're right about everything except the clients generally being "high-net-worth individuals." My firm's stupid clients have no money, pay late if at all, and still demand the sun and the moon and then stars.

Great way to learn litigation. I was laid off from BIGLAW and finally landed at this job at a 3 person firm where the main partner is very well known. The firm regularly handles the divorces of notable people in my area. In 6 months I've already done mutiple 4+ hour depositions, handled an appellate brief (there are lots of appeals), and I spend 1-3 hours in contact with clients every day. Also, in family law it is easier to train clients to expect 9-5 service (no blackberry tethered to your hip). At the end of the year I will handle a 2 day trial for one of our smaller cases.

Also, the name partner makes more than all but one of the partners in the office of my BIGLAW firm, and he typically works (not bills) 30 hours a week. His hourly rate is the same or higher than most BIGLAW litigators with the same experience, and I bill higher than what I did at BIGDOCREVIEW LAW. Further, if you are active in marketing, in 2-3 years you can build a sustainable practice that allows you to net at or over the BIGLAW comp for a 4th year associate. After 10 years in this field you can make much more than most BIGLAW partners while being your own boss.

The downside is the base pay is roughly half of my BIGLAW gig (although the bonus will probably make my total comp about 75%), but with that comes leaving at 5pm on some days. My typical hours are 7am-6pm, without weekends in the office. Basically, this is a 1800 hour per year job.

7 - They've opened the comments on that post now.

10 - Great comment. Thank you for the info!

Is there any news on the mystery meeting at Winston & Strawn this morning? We've heard nothing.

Slllllllllooooooooooooooooooooow news day. Cripes.

(And apparently no followup w/r/t Winston; don't break stories, kids, that you can't follow up on.)

Of course it's a slow news day. Haven't you heard of Christopher Columbus?

In 1982, the firm handled the bankruptcy of a then famous celebrity who went through a very ugly divorce. In the end, the court ordered our client to pay over $300,000 in legal fees to his ex-spouse's attorneys. My firm's bankruptcy department filed a Chapter 11 case for this client and in the end we watched the divorce attorneys fight with other creditors for scraps. At that time I was thankful not to have pursued this avenue of law which is truly for the penurious and untalented lot of lawyers.

It seems glamorous, at least if you represent rich people and celebrities. Am I wrong?

The pay stinks, but you get a lot of ass along the way. It's a great way to meet really hot woman who have been starved for sex.

17, you are wrong.

3 wins!

“One thing that really helps is doing doing divorce law.”

It helps if you really DO it. Doing it once is not enough. You have to GET INTO that shit.

Eh, bored.

How's this for an idea: let's return to your story about a mystery Monday meeting at W&S and provide an update. What is this garbage?

PE - I believe you mean Chapter 7 you ignoramus.

Yes, if ATL does not follow up on the W&S meeting by COB east coast time today that will be a massive, humiliating fail. Hop to it.

Why would a peer firm ever represent a client that could be pushed in bankruptcy by a 300,000 judgment?

Perhaps the early 80's was a different time, but that is a severely non-peer client.

This comment is addressed to post no. 23.

No, it was a Chapter 11. Our client had too many assets to liquidate, thus, the need to file for reorganization. The unsecured class of creditors, including the ex-spouse's attorneys, received 3 cents on the dollar. As for ignoramus, that would be something I would call your parents for deciding to conceive an ambulatory fetus such as yourself. That is all.

Lat = EDITOR-IN-FAILURE TO FOLLOW-UP ON HIS OWN OVER-HYPED POSTS.

This comment is addressed to post no. 25.

Please take a class in corporate finance or at least learn the principles of "present value." In 1982, $5K could fund a year and half of tuition of law school at a private institution. Upscale properties could be purchased for $100K. $300K was a big deal, even in 1982. If you don't think, $300K was a big deal then, ask a struggling law graduate how easy it has been to repay $300K in student loan debt now.

Comment removed by moderator.

PE - do you ever fell unfulfilled after a long day of looking at ATL, hitting the refresh button, and posting one comment after another?

PE = EPIC FAILURE TO MAKE ME LAUGH.

TOP REASONS TO GO INTO FAMILY LAW

1. You will learn your State’s Civil Practice Act better than anyone else. Therefore, if you hate it then you can always go to do commercial litigation.
2. You get to go to court ALL the time. Nobody gets more trial experience than divorce lawyers—except for criminal lawyers. In less than three months at this small law firm, I was already getting to go to court on temporary protective orders and motions. You get to argue the motions you draft. My friends at BigLaw are still watching senior associates draft motions.
3. You can have a direct impact on people’s lives. I get lots of thank you cards. Although those mostly come from my Juvenile cases and not my divorce cases.
4. You don’t have to watch reality tv anymore because reality comes to your office every day. You get to hear stuff like “I can’t believe I am being accused of adultery when he/she is the one who brought his/ her friend in for the threesome.” or “Well I met her at the strip club.” or hear your boss say “Wait hit rewind, is that his penis?”
5. You can bill for hours spent on Facebook? I bill easily one to two hours per week sifting through people’s Facebook pages. You would be surprised what people will post about pending litigation when their profiles are public. Do you really need to be embroiled in a custody battle when you are out getting drunk every night?
6. The money is not big law but it isn’t bad. I make 55k plus bonus. I bonus every quarter about 2k after taxes. I rarely bill more than 5 hours each day unless I am in court.

This comment is addressed to post no. 30.

I feel unfulfilled about the sorry state of the legal profession and today's generation of attorneys, which is indisputably the worst from a historical standpoint. Commissar Obama is a product of that generation, albeit he missed being a part of the prior generation by one year. Is it a coincidence that the decline of this profession started with his class?

Re: Winston & Strawn, we are gathering reports and will post about the meeting later (probably tomorrow morning). Based on preliminary reports, it was not a particularly exciting meeting, basically along the lines of a "state of the firm" talk.

If you would like to contribute information, please email us: tips at abovethelaw dot com (subject line: "Winston and Strawn"). Thanks.

Here's what I can tell you - It's a rigged system of destruction that the judges, lawyers and other "professionals" use to bootstrap their financial well being on the unknowing "average joe" who has to subject themselves to the legal system. And besides "pots and pans" add children into the mix. The deal is you walk in, the attorney decides based on the size of the marital estate how long they are going to string things along, and then they tell you to settle when the money runs out. They antagonize the other side, take unnecessary depositions, act like adversaries with opposing counsel and then laugh and joke together at the fools they take advantage of during their "family law seminars". It's a joke.

Marshall Dennehey West Chester to 43k !

32 - That is a great comment, thank you.

Family law is the absolute pits, last stop on the road to hell, of legal practice. Aside from the fact that the idea of family court is a misandrist-inspired joke, it is in this practice where you must churn up human misery in order to profit.

Family court is the busiest docket for a reason. It has the most frivolity and useless litigiousness. State intrusion into people's private lives is despicable and unfortunate. Family/divorce lawyers collectively undermine society and whatever remnants of our once-vaunted prudent, puritanical heritage we once had.

Please, become a family lawyer and become an accessory to moral rot and societal decline! Support divorce theft, vaginamony, and the death of commitment and responsibility in our society.

Cool thread, guys.

If you want to work for the most angry, bitter, demanding, miserable, irrational and unrealistic clients in existence (who never want to pay their bills), then divorce law is definitely the practice for you. There is no worse area of law -- makes traffic court and criminal defense look good. Sure, there is good money to be made at the very pinnacle of the practice, i.e., representing the very wealthy -- but few lawyers can get to that level. The divorce lawyers I know spend most of their time fist fighting over child custody issues, which can drag on for years.

You can make a fair amount of money as your rise up the the family law food chain. But if you aspire to work for the uberrich and celebrities, you'll quickly find that those types are usually the biggest dicks to work for.

I worked in family court for a summer in law school, and I will say that the human misery factor is a big turn-off. Also, most of your clients will be vindictive dunderheads. The lawyering is sub-par, briefs are terribly written, and the caliber of clients and fellow counsel you will meet is depressingly bad.

23=FAIL

Certain individuals may elect to file for Chapter 11 protection [i.e., Michael Vick, Mike Tyson, etc.). Chapter 11 is not exclusively for corporate entities. Dumb ass.

38 - 41: Thank you for these useful comments (useful to someone considering this field).

Can someone please offer the more positive aspects of this practice?

It is a great way to gain real experience in the courtroom. Most of the smart attorneys have retainer agreements that weed out the clients that cannot pay. Also, most of the better family law attorneys end up handling cases with many complex issues, especially those related to valuing family corporations and figuring out how people hide money.

If you have a financial/accounting background you will probably enjoy the work, which can be very lucrative.

If you work in BIGLAW, you know that most of the cases, with some exceptions, are boring, and you;ll probably never get to take an active role in a case until you are 10 years into practice.

After a few years of working for an attorney with a good reputation you will be able to go out on your own and have a great referral network. Many attorneys make a lot of money in this field by only handling the "crackerjack" cases. Those who work on more complex family law matters make a TON of money doing interesting work. There are a plenty of terrible lawyers in this field, but if you are decent, you will get a good reputation and rise to the top quickly.

I will say that it helps to practice in an area of the country where people have a lot of money to fight over as my friends who have "rural practices" tend to encounter most of the cases that unfortunately give this area of the law a bad rap. Locate where people with money reside. such as South Florida, NY, CA, and other major metropolitan areas.

The whining negativity of lawyers depresses this Orc. Try being attacked by Night Elves if you think your life is hard.

Zug Zug!

I love practicing family law. Conflict and paranoia are easily stirred among divorcing couples... which of course leads to more $$$. The corollary is owning a glass company and shooting out windows in nearby buildings to drum up business only what I do is legal.

Is family law always fun? No.
Is it always interesting? Yes.

My clients try to shock me shock me shock me with their deviant behavior, or their spouse's deviant behavior, but nothing really surprises me anymore.

Being a solo means I get to pick my clients. If I think you're a vindictive jerk who I'd rather see fry in hell than help with my expensive education, then I will just refer you to one of the other 8 billion family lawyers in the area. You don't have to represent the scum. You can if you want, but unless you're in an area where you are the only family law attorney, you're not going to run into any ethical issues if you just pass on the case.

I don't by any means want to make my practice soley family law. My true love is wills and estates. But when you're in this economy, wills take a back seat, and unless grandma left you the (paid off) mansion, a sweet car and 100k in inheritance, sometimes even probating the will falls in the back seat.

However, people can still afford to get divorced, sue for child support or file modifications because they just can't stand the way little jimmy is turning out because mommy is raising him. It's a great learning experience. I've seen good and bad judges. Judges who rely on the family code and can quote it verbatim and judges who reinvent it with their interpretation. I'm in Texas and the trend very much is still towards the mother, but I've had some success in representing the fathers in cases. Most of my clients have been on time with paying me.

Maybe I'm untalented, and maybe I'm a disgrace to lawyers, but really, I kinda like it. It's not working on million dollar law suits. I don't have a fancy car. My office is small, and I don't have a secretary. What I do have is a small but growing base of clients who refer me to their friends because they know I'm a decent person who doesn't get dollar signs in her eyes when they come in to my office. I sleep at night (unless I'm working on this one case I've got that causes me to lose sleep).

The majority of the time, I thoroughly enjoy my work. It interests me, I meet fantastically strange and odd people and get paid to effect change in people's lives. I don't think I could work for another law office as I enjoy being self employed. As long as state legislatures write codes that are confusing, people are going to need family lawyers.

The fact that family law is distasteful to some lawyers and apparently is the subject of scorn bothers me probably about as much as it bothers a Biglaw lawyer hear me say that I think BigLaw is full of souless people who are in it only for the money. Neither stereotype is true. There are untalented losers in every lawyer strata. :)

The things you need the most as a family lawyer is
1) A sense of humor,
2) Objectivity
3) The ability to stand up to your clients and not let them push you around.

It's not all sunshine and roses. Sometimes your clients will have about as much common sense as a gnat, but patience, strength and the aforementioned qualities will bear you through.

And leave your cases at the office. Your client is the one with the problems. You don't shoulder them when you're not at work.

47, thank you - that may be the best comment on this thread so far.

5 and the other bloke referencing shtupping divorcee's: There are specific ethical rules put in place to prohibit pricks like you scoring. If you truly think that's a "benefit" of fam law, you might want to read the ethics rules again and reconsider.

Mostly though: Thank you 47 and the others who commented seriously.

I am trying to get into family law. I went to law school to be a family law attorney. People think its all divorce and custody, but there is more-- there is adoption, there are same sex partnerships, there could be issues relating to surrogacy.

I have been fortunate to have interned with a prominent family lawyer in my SE city. I got to work on some really interesting cases while I was there and I remain ever hopeful i will get to work for her soon.

Coincidentally, I am doing wills/estates/probate right now. Not my love, but certainly interesting too. But I can't wait till I can move into family law full time!

32 - A $55K base salary? I think some of the paralegals and secretaries at my current firm make more than that!

$55k is slightly over 1/3 of biglaw base. Eek!

I work in a small family law firm that handles divorces and custody cases for high net-worth individuals and celebrities in L.A. I have been with the firm about 2 years and I make about $100k. I usually work 9-7 during the week and rarely have to work weekends. Other senior associates who have families work 9-5 schedules and pull in $125k+. Partners work minimal hours, bill at ridiculously high levels, and earn obscene amounts of money even in this economy.

I had hoped for BIG LAW while in law school, but I did not go to a top 25 school and ended up in the middle of my class. So, by the time I graduated the only offer I had was with this family law firm. However, I have received more hands-on experience than my former classmates and I have dealt with complex legal issues. I interact with clients on a daily basis and I truly enjoy the work.

Family law is a great, underrated field of law; however, emotions run high and clients can become illogical and overly litigious. It also should be noted that family lawyers are perceived by the rest of the legal community and society in general as the worst of the worst. But, the truth is that if you are slightly talented and you are personable, you will stand out in the family law community and can succeed. Overall, a great area of law for those who do not fit the BIG LAW top 10%, law review, moot court mold.

Just curious what people think a "decent" salary is for a lawyer? In light of previous posts, say you make $55k in Atlanta or, based on cost of living adjustment, an equivalent salary of $127k in NYC?

53: Any definition of "decent" depends on the particular individual's circumstances.

First, let's say you have at least $100k in school debt. Second, you would like to live (renting at first but buying within a few years) in one of the nicer/safer areas of your city (that has a reasonable proximity to the office), in a decent (though far from fancy) place. Third, you would like to be saving some money. Fourth, you either already have a child or there is a fairly good chance that you will have one within the next 3 - 5 years.

Personally, based on the above four (or even just the first three) circumstances, I would need to make at least $127k in Atlanta...and upwards of $275k in NYC.

- Somewhere between Atlanta and NYC (i.e., Chicago)

63 = Roxie

Thank you to everyone who posted informative comments. I fell in love with this line of work as a summer associate. As a current 3L, I'm wondering if anyone has tips for finding a job at a family law shop. From what I've seen, these firms tend to be very small and might not be looking for a younger associates. Is there anything I can do to make myself stand out as an applicant?

As 47 explains, the "qualifications" for a family law practitioner are identical to the requirements to be a guest on Jerry Springer.

There's no "law" in this area. It's a succubus on mankind and the reason that lawyers are universally reviled.

If we ever get serious about thinning the ranks of our profession, these bottom feeders would be the first to suffer. And that's not a bad thing.

56,

If you have a heartbeat, no morals, and little brains, you'd still be overqualified.

@56- If you're stupid enough to think that you need to "stand out" to be attracted by the donkeys practicing family law, then I think you'll be perfect! Onward and downward!

Family law practice is tied to your local economy. While many clients have the same issues, their ability to fund the issues varies. In a poorer community, the phone calls incorpoarte a lot of requests for pro bono. For every Doctor, or high paid professional getting a divorce, there's a hundred Joe Six Packs deep in debt, with dead end jobs that can't afford more than an uncontested divorce, sign up for one, and then contest the hell out of it. As one lawyer at CLE would say, your case is no better than your client, and eventually you become no better than the composite of your cases. If you do divorce law, you should charge a combat pay surcharge, and keep a gun in your drawer. Your best friend with the most charming personality is capable of muttering obscenities at the Judge who is 8 feet away (once he hears he'll have to pay temporary support),and you have visions of going to jail for not controlling your client. Your favorite motion becomes the Motion to Withdraw, and the clients that bring their screaming kiids into the office because they didn't arrange the baby sitter have you thinking about going home and drinking your 5pm beer at 10 am.

60 again. I forgot the best part. The best part is the blood pressure monitor. You get a 40 point spike between your easy chair at home, and the client on the phone or in your office. After you see the blood pressure difference, you have visions of stroking, with your last conscious thought of who is going to get the crystal ashtray in the divorce.

56- Good Luck.

The difficulty with getting into family law is, as you pointed out, that it is usually boutique firms. Which means that either the firm needs to have more work than it can handle with the attorneys and staff it currently has, or that someone is leaving and they need to fill the slot. Plus, unlike Big Law which seems to be willing to hire and pay for you to prep for the Bar and then start work, boutique firms (at least in my neck of the woods) aren't able or willing to do that. So you are on your own for paying for and preparing for the Bar, and most aren't even going to be interested in talking to you until you have your license.

I graduated from law school in May, passed the Bar and was recently sworn in. I am only just now beginning to put efforts into finding a full time position in a firm, because I knew I needed to have passed the Bar before I did so.

Many people I know left law school and wanted to practice family law. They went solo. I personally have no interesting in being a solo, but am doing it part time (in another area of law). I am having to turn away family law cases to my friends who are able to devote to it full time because family law work is not really suited to my very part time schedule. It sucks to not be able to take interesting cases that are in the area of law I am interested in.

My school had a great family law clinic (which I could not participate in, because I was an evening student and worked full time throughout law school). If your school has one, take it and do it all year. At the very least, you could walk out of school and once you pass the Bar, open up a solo practice if no firm position is available.

Because of my schedule during school, I had to get creative with internship experience. I was incredibly fortunate to take a class my final year with a prominent family law attorney who is the senior partner of a firm here in my city. After an initial stumble, I spent the rest of the semester of her course busting my ass to excel in her class and to impress the hell out of her (it worked). I spent the next semester interning with her firm as much as I was able to. I got some pretty great experience (though it could have been more if I'd had more time). Her firm situation was such that she could not hire another associate, just yet (I remain hopeful, however. LOL). We have remained friends and in contact and she actually was the attorney who presented me for my swearing in ceremony.

Which brings me to a big point, which I am actually pretty surprised people don't mention more on here: NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK. I cannot say enough about the importance of that, as both a student and a lawyer. As a female student, I joined the local women attorney's group. I went to a single luncheon and got a job referral. It led to a job at a firm which I did for several months. I remained friendly with that attorney and that is whom I am now doing contract work for. The family law attorney I interned with is also a great resource. So don't isolate yourself to school wide organizations. Go out there and get involved in your community, if that's where you ultimately want to practice. Law student memberships are free or cheap and its just too great a networking opportunity to pass up.

Thank you, 62.

Was a family law paralegal prior to law school and said I would never get into it after school was over. Was only middle of the class in a tier 2 school and didn't get one of the biglaw summer associate jobs. Did a family law clinic in school, clerked for a family law judge in NJ my first year out. Got a job in large regional firm, about 200+ attorneys, with a respected family law practice. Clear 130K without bonus taken into account. There is hope. Tons of practical experience other associates aren't getting and I get to be in court all the time.

32 here. I make 55k base in northern Atlanta burb. Plus I bonus about 10K per year. Like I said I only bill about five hours per day. I could probably make about 85K if I spent less time on ATL and billed an extra hour or two a day. :-)

44 and 47, Thank you. Your comments were great and I agree.

Retainers are critical in family law. Most lawyers are terrible business people. You cannot be a bad business person in Family Law because you will starve. You absolutely need to set retainers and when they are not replenished you need to be swift with the withdrawals.

Like the commenters above I have to know a little bit about lots of different areas of law: tax, bankruptcy, corporations, agency, and even criminal sometimes. That keeps the work interesting. But there are days where all I do is write nastygrams to opposing counsel. Those days aren't so fun.

Also, family law gets you into ADR if thats where you want to go in your career. Most courts these days require you to attend mediation before getting in front of a judge on a final.

32 again. Forgot to add that I had only about $45K of law school debt so $55k is fine. I went to a top 100 us news school. Public of course.

Can we have a thread on construction law?

Sorry, I rarely comment, but I must come to the defense of practicing family law. It is not something I envisioned while in law school, but shortly after graduating from law school I opened my own firm and practiced primarily family law for 12 years. I got a tremendous amount of trial and appellate experience. I didn't always have big cases, but I rarely had uninteresting ones, and despite previous posts on this string, I learned a lot about a number of different areas of law--for instance, I can throw down with any corporate lawyer when it comes to valuing a business. And anyone who says that there is not a large and complex body of law in the family law area has obviously never looked at it closely. And in the end I used my family law/small firm background to lateral in as a partner at BIGLAW...without ever having to be an associate.

68 -- What area of law did you lateral into as a partner in BIGLAW? Litigation? Employment/Labor?

I am a new associate in a family law firm and I hope to do the same thing you did in the future, but I can't figure out which practice area would be appropriate.

I graduated from a Top Five law school and actually wanted to practice family law, which often surprised people. As a 3L, I interviewed with several matrimonial firms, all of whom told me they only hire attorneys with experience, and that I should work at another firm for two years and then reapply. I worked at BIGLAW for two years, was well trained, and then was hired at a large firm with a substantial family law department. That is the path I'd recommend to law students wishing to find jobs as matrimonial attorneys. I take offense to the comments here that all family law work is of poor quality: while that is often true, it was not true of the matrimonial department at my firm nor of those of other highly regarded large firms or matrimonial boutiques. Most of us were good writers, trained at large firms, who produced good papers and took pride in our work.
The work was always interesting to me because of the human element, but some of the clients were miserable human beings who blamed all their troubles on their attorneys and the "system," rather than on the fact that they had married assholes and/or were, in fact, assholes themselves. I so often wished I could tell them that!
I became disillusioned because I saw so much churning by the partners for whom I worked--interrogatories, depositions, motions--that unnecessarily inflated my clients' legal fees to an astronomical level. I got sick of representing wealthy sixty year old men disposing of their long-suffering wives for younger women while naively believing those women loved them and not their wallets. It was kind of fun, though, to see them return a couple of years later for subsequent divorces when they found out those wives were having affairs with men closer to their age. I also had to commence divorce proceedings against people already dealing with terminal cancer and other tragic situations, which often kept me up at night. As an associate, I had no choice but to work on the cases assigned to me, which is problematic for anyone with any sort of moral compass. Then, once I had kids, I could no longer in good conscience represent people who were waging custody battles just to gain financial advantage. I also realized that litigation between parents is so harmful to kids.
I am now practicing family mediation. I do not make nearly as much $$ as I used to, but I sleep much better at night, and I can look myself in the mirror. I feel like part of the solution to a family's problems, not the cause of further grief for them. I think that family law litigation serves only to line lawyers' pockets and does little good for the parties and their children.

graduated from a top 20 in Los Angeles, always knew i wanted to do family law. i make $85k as a first year associate. no bonus, but i bill approximately 6-7 hours a day and always leave the office by 7pm. family law is amazing because you get an exposure to such a wide variety of issues: tax, business, property, custody, etc. you get to go to court right away, draft your own motions, handle your own cases. and you do help people. you really do.