PE is a 34 year old temp.

can any current associates or those familiar with the firm confirm that PW is taking on too many first years, or relegating them to doc review? i'm considering going to PW and this has been a concern of mine. glad to have this brought up now before making a decision...

Two years of document review (or more!) ensures low bonuses and small raises since one doesn't really prove one's worth with doc review and PW has little incentive to reward those doing it. Looks like PW is encouraging attrition, which is what they need.

This is unfortunate. It would be nice if everyone here could show a little respect for once and refrain from posting their ridiculous jokes, schticks, personal asides, etc. Let's have some decorum for once.

Thanks in advance.

Is this the coat hanger firm?

"Looks like PW is encouraging attrition, which is what they need."

Wow...you still don't get it. There is no where to go- especially for a junior associate. Attrition? You probably still think firms are worried about their reputation in on-campus recruiting if they fire associates. In today's climate- a firm could fire half its associates and still get interviews tomorrow for new juniors to take their place. Please- wake up.

Hi dis is meessiz Lat, I want to say Daveed puts too many penis in his butt.

Another option to give 1st years work would be to fire the service partners who hoard associate level work. This would increase profitability and also be better for clients' bills and ultimately their satisfaction.

Another option to give 1st years work would be to fire the service partners who hoard associate level work. This would increase profitability and also be better for clients' bills and ultimately their satisfaction.

I said What What?

What the heck is going on at Duane Morris in Philly?

Every time I check the website there seems to be two or three people who have mysteriously "vanished".

ATL, are you guys looking into this? You will recall that Duane Morris took a huge number of Wolf Block people (the Philadelphia firm that dissolved March 2009).

Perhaps Duane took too many people?

Umm . . . EVERY first year does doc review. It's only a matter of how much. If you haven't done a slew of doc review as a first year litigator, you should be ashamed to call yourself a lawyer.

The practice of law involves hazing rituals and rights of passage. Doc review serves this purpose for litigators just as all night deal work serves this purpose for corporate types.

Don't get me wrong - it's sad to see these attorneys lose their jobs. However, the staff attorney position is not as entrenched in the legal field as the associate attorney position. When there is too much work for the first years to possibly handle, staff attorneys come into play. That, unfortunately, is not the case right now.

Doc review monkey is a racist term.

Moosecock Jones

Oh, please. More scare mongering from Above the Law. In the coming years, staff attorneys will be more common, not less. Clients will balk at paying associate level rates for monkey work that is mindless, but that still needs to be conducted in a somewhat accurate manner. If anyone will become extinct, it will be the overpaid entitled 1st year associates.

Bitter axed Paul Weiss staff attorney needs to get a life. 8 years of document review in the same place? They did you a favor. It does suck no severance though.

Oh, please. More scare mongering from Above the Law. In the coming years, staff attorneys will be more common, not less. Clients will balk at paying associate level rates for monkey work that is mindless, but that still needs to be conducted in a somewhat accurate manner. If anyone will become extinct, it will be the overpaid entitled 1st year associates.

Bitter axed Paul Weiss staff attorney needs to get a life. 8 years of document review in the same place? They did you a favor. It does suck no severance though.

Oh, please. More scare mongering from Above the Law. In the coming years, staff attorneys will be more common, not less. Clients will balk at paying associate level rates for monkey work that is mindless, but that still needs to be conducted in a somewhat accurate manner. If anyone will become extinct, it will be the overpaid entitled 1st year associates.

Bitter axed Paul Weiss staff attorney needs to get a life. 8 years of document review in the same place? They did you a favor. It does suck no severance though.

um, 13, I didn't do a "slew" of document review my first year. In fact, I have never done doc review, and I am a litigator. However, I am not ashamed to call myself a laywer, and for you to suggest that I should be only means your either (a) a tool, (b) a douche, or (c) both. I'm guessing c.

Instead of going to a big law firm right out of school, I went to work in-house for a major union. So, instead of doing monkey doc review work, I was actually going to court and litigating cases, mostly in federal court. After two years, I moved on to a high-end litigation boutique that specializes in labor & employment law. I now make about the equivalent of what big law associates make, and oh yeah, my job is secure because our firm is booming.

I sincerely feel bad for any person who has lost a job or has been deffered/offer rescinded. It is terrible. Hopefully, more law students will understand that there are more avenues towards becoming a successful lawyer than just going into big law. Unfortunately, 13's comment suggests that far too many new lawyers refuse to think outside of the big law box.

Not confirmed - but I heard Pepper Hamilton also fired a bunch of staff attorneys last Friday.

Nice triple post, dickspigot.

7,

There's a bigger point.

The biglaw model is built around a high attrition rate (whether natural or forced). The number of law firms that could actually hire 100 new attorneys a year and intend to keep them (and presumably let them make partner in 7-10 years) is incredibly small.

That hiring, along with lockstep compensation is premised on the idea that the vast majority of associates will voluntarily leave the firm for greener pastures and lighter hours after a couple of years, and only a few will stick it out to make partner. Then new associates can be hired to fill the work.

When the economy turns bad, people realize there are no greener pastures and don't leave. So firms that anticipated that by year 6 or 7 that the majority of associates will have left the firm are finding that most haven't left, but won't be made partner. So they have to take some sort of action to remedy the problem. (IE Layoffs)

18, no one cares about your personal history. Except, perhaps, Lat's mother.

Deal flow is back baby

15, that's the conventional wisdom now, again. But I remember back in the Good Economy that clients would be outraged to find out you staffed some critical aspect of a review with contractors or "staff" attorneys and would insist that the firm send down a pack of "real lawyers" to sit in a conference room and real credit agreements from the 70s or whatever. There was a recession before the last boom and I'm sure people were saying the same thing about what clients will want "in the coming years."

Rational action is a baseline assumption of econonomic analysis, not a description of actual human or business behavior.

Moogoogoo

RECESSION IS ALMOST OVER

QUINN FINISHES THE FIGHT

Who wants to see me stretch my scrotum up over my head?

Time to fire-up the 'ol Section 90 claims...

24 - Everything is seen in black and white. a) all the review work will be outsourced to Babu in India for 7 bucks an hour; or alternatively, b) clients will demand that partner emeritus himself, or his select group of superstars review the work. Truth lies somewhere in between. More staff attorneys, not less.

I heard about the layoffs at Pepper Hamilton also.

I consider myself well connected to the Philadelphia bar. Duane Morris is definitely having problems right now. I have heard three separate reports of numerous layoffs there....so it's something to look into.

Let me say this about Duane. It has been trying hard for several years to reach the level of Morgan Lewis and Deckert in the Philadelphia market (just like Pepper Hamilton).

But Pepper Hamilton was put back in its place with its recent layoffs and poor offer rate to summers.

Duane saw this, and doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes....any lay offs will be VERY under the radar...meaning, confidentiality type agreements for severance packages.

everybody listent o this and dance in your office
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGXxcSdsXJ4

do do doo doo doo doo doo

Not necessarily, 24. Many big firms went about creating staff attorney programs with some detail, ensuring that they were indeed "real lawyers." Most of the clients at my firm were quite satisfied with the work product.

Of course, I no longer work there. Left to join a boutique two years ago.

24, I would love to agree with you, but I think your statement is a bit unrealistic. For example, on the front page of last Friday's Chicago Daily Law Bulletin (a respectable publication within the Chicago Community) there was an article regarding Wildman's layoffs. In that article, it quotes a statement from Wildman that the reason it rescinded a number of associate offers is because "[s]taff attorneys who have joined us in the past 18 months have enabled us to provide high-quality service at a more efficient cost structure for our clients -- specifically in regard to document review and discrete research projects."

Sadly, I think this statement represents a much larger trend among big law, at least in Chicago, which is more reliance on staff attorneys. Things may change back, but for some reason, I doubt it. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I've never judged a man by the size of his wallet. Unfortunately, all the attractive single women on the Upper East Side do.

George Brett had another incident at the Bellagio last night. Cleanup on aisle 4!

"Sadly, I think this statement represents a much larger trend among big law, at least in Chicago, which is more reliance on staff attorneys. Things may change back, but for some reason, I doubt it. Hopefully I'm wrong. "

What? You begrudge the staff attorney their jobs, at the expense of the poor, poor associate? Perhaps those "associates" should settle for the staff attorney position, instead.

Of course, this all lines the wallets of the partners, who deserve as much opprobrium as possible.

To 30:

What other Philly firms are struggling? Ship appears to be sinking in the City of Brotherly Love!

In the "good old days", 1st & 2nd year attorneys did exactly what many staff attorneys do now -- that's why most businesses knew you couldn't get any real value out of a BigLaw associate until year 4 or 5.

The staff attorney model makes too much economic sense to kill permanently ONLY if the clients are letting the firms keep the profit. BUT, too many clients now have GCs who are former BigLaw partners, and they are letting the cat out of the bag about staff atty profitability -- figuring that if they, as GC, can "control costs" by getting staff attys at cost (or cost + 10% for supervision), it makes them look better.

If PW clients are doing that, then PW is making the smart economic move - in the short term.

Ohhh noooo!

30,

If you really were well connected to the Philly Bar, you would know that the firm's name is spelled "Dechert," not 'Deckert."

elie. i just spent the early morning checking out your friends on facebook. {don't judge me, i am unemployed}.

what's with all the diversity talk? dude you need more black friends.

How you like me now?

Elie,
Please fix this subject/verb agreement mistake:

"Sources reports"

I can confirm that PW first years ARE ALL doing only doc review right now and a hell of a lot of it at that. Granted, they only started three weeks ago and finished training a week and a half ago, so that might not say much. However none of them see anything but doc review in their proximate future. About twenty of the first years are doing doc review on the same matter = craziness if you ask me.

The ship be sinking...

From what i've heard of PW doc reviews, these staff attorneys were done a favor.

"Paul Weiss declined to comment for this story. But we understand that no associates have been let go."

"UPDATE: We are now hearing reports that the number is significantly higher than a dozen, perhaps as high as 45 (since November 2008). “This can all be confirmed by the lawyer lists that are sent out at the start of each month,” said our source."

Actually, the number is closer to 60 staff attorneys since November.

In addition, since November, PW has reduced its ASSOCIATE attorneys by at least 25 people, particularly in the real estate, securitization and other corporate practices. PW has also had a 10% reduction in each of its non-lawyer staff departments.

ATL needs a better source.

NOTE: The number of staff attorney laywoffs at PW is much higher than a dozen. It was about a dozen in the past two weeks alone. Total number this year is closer to 50 (or about a third of the program), including nearly all the Staff Attorneys in the DC office.

NOTE: The number of staff attorney laywoffs at PW is much higher than a dozen. It was about a dozen in the past two weeks alone. Total number this year is closer to 50 (or about a third of the program), including nearly all the Staff Attorneys in the DC office.

NOTE: The number of staff attorney laywoffs at PW is much higher than a dozen. It was about a dozen in the past two weeks alone. Total number this year is closer to 50 (or about a third of the program), including nearly all the Staff Attorneys in the DC office.

44 (and the rest of you),

What do you suppose first-years should be doing -- writing Markman briefs?

Here's how it works: review the dox; flag the hot ones; identify what hasn't been produced/maybe draft a letter; create witness files for depos; make some outlines; create a few depo notices; maybe hand some exhibits to a junior partner at the deposition; write another letter about withheld documents; repeat for several years. That's how you learn the game.

51 is spot on. I am a rising second year and now and he is how my first year went:

Months 1-3: Nothing but doc review

Months 2-6: Doc Review and drafting discovery letters, some research.

Months 6-8: Mainly drafting letters and research, some doc review

Months 8-12: Mainly research and drafting memos, some letters, small amount of doc review.

47-50: The best way to send information to ATL is by email: tips at abovethelaw dot com.

3/4: I can confirm that Wilson Sonsini is relegating first/second years to doc review. It sucks.

52 - what are you rising from? your office chair? have you actually stood up or are you in this constant state of rising? must be hard on the knees . . .

18 is exactly correct. You are letting biglaw define you instead of making your own reputation as a lawyer. There are several ways of becoming a lawyer other than being a big law drone.

For example, next year there are mid-term elections. You could volunteer to work on a congressional or senate campaign. There, you can make a name for yourself and wrangle a government appointment.

If you doubt me, google Monica Goodling, a big honcho at the Justice Dept., and see what "prestigious" law school that she attended.

12, 30 etc- Duane Morris is one of about 10-12 phony Philly phirms which have been gradually crumbling over the last 2+ years. They are built on wannabe New york business models but lack the clients and understanding to sustain that kind of operation. And as times have gotten rough, everything is falling to pieces and their problems are becoming much easier to see.

But like Pepper Hamilton, Cozen, Stradley Ronon, etc, Duane Morris is busy pumping out as much press as they can to make things look good. You read about who comes, not who goes. But think about it-Why did Duane Morris get a new marketing director? hmmm....
Or you read about some meaningless presentation or appointment to keep a firm's name in the papers- A partner at Stradley Ronon takes a shit in a bag, and it appears as a news brief in the Legal Intelligencer- it's a joke.

I don't mean to be cruel but a big law staff attorney has pretty much the same career arc as that of an Albanian prostitute. Deflowered, defiled and a snuff film denouement. Take a risk. Escape while you still can.

I don't mean to be cruel, but a big law staff attorney is really more "staff" than "attorney." And although I feel that law firm staff are important components of the whole, they are not quite the same as associate attorneys and up. I suggest ATL create a sister site. Perhaps something like Underneath Above the Law, or Underneath BigLawyers. Just a thought.

59 = EPIC FAILURE IN LIFE.

40...Sorry I was in the middle of a motion to compel....kind of important stuff here....sorry if I didn't spell exactly correctly.

Comment removed by moderator.

"I don't mean to be cruel, but a big law staff attorney is really more "staff" than "attorney.""

Seconded.

So dumb. As someone who not only used to work at PW but is aware of the discrepancy in salary but NOT work product and time between SA and associates, this is the most ridiculous move ever.

They work their staff attorneys as much if not more than their regular associates, but pay them less than half of what associates make. Oh, and the staff associates are actual attorneys...they, you know, have been practicing and aren't skilled in NOTHING like 1st years who write memos on memos (if they're lucky).

Nice move, PW!

Most big law associates are more like entitled babies who will be out of the profession in 2-3 years than attorneys.

People at my high school used to lay off staff attorneys all the time- it was no big deal

I would make a more insightful comment but I need to go fill an orifice right now.

... heads off to the Upper East Side.

Wow, so one of the few firms to start people on time and give full offers, and somehow ya'll find something to try and make it look bad.

ATL, is there anything you do besides try to paint ugly pictures?

Wait, are there people really shocked that first year associates are doing doc review? What else are they good for?!

I was under the impression that PW had more staff attorneys than other firms. Although new associates may now have more doc review than they used to, I still think they they do a lot less than associates at peer firms. (I'm a third year and spend about 20% of my time on doc review.)

I actually see this as a positive in terms of associate job security. Shows the firm is willing to do whatever it takes to avoid laying off real attorneys.

But, of course, best of luck to those affected.

It's sad that layoffs took place but, in fairness, staff attorneys really shouldn't expect job security. I don't see anything wrong with laying some in bad times and then rehiring when things pick up. Clearly a better move than laying off associates, which will actually hurt recruiting.

And yes, PW does care about recruiting (most top firms still do). 2Ls from HYS still have the option to avoid firms that have conducted extensive layoffs.

12, 30, 57 - Not every attorney who left Duane Morris recently was asked to leave. Some just found better gigs. Believe it or not, other firms are hiring if you're a partner or senior associate.

This is best for the SA population. Most people hired for this gig were really smart, competent people who got sucked into the SA hole after Law School. Once you have that on your resume it is hard to move on (and hard to give up the 120k.) After time, both skills and sense of self worth tended to go down the drain. I feel bad for the people with families who had been there for years, didnt mind clicking the box and went home to the people who cared about them. But for everyone else, it was not a good situation, ever. Think about it this way, how many years in a row did you really want to be forced to sit through a class on Privilege?
Let the first years worry about doing unredactions on Lotus. Hope all my former coders in arms find something better to do.
Thanks Elie for the post.

Paul Weiss cheated on us. It's like when your wife cheats on you. You think you're dealing with an honest person, but you're not. "ITSA THE SAME FUCKING THING."

Clients aren't paying associate billable rates for doc reviews anymore. This is really shortsighted. Maybe these law firms are offering clients drastically reduced associate billable rates to keep associates busy on these doc reviews. But this will affect the bottom line and is not a sustainable long term business strategy.

75 -- who said it was a long-term strategy? These things go in waves. Always have. When business gets crazy again, first years will have other work to do, and the need for staff attorneys will rise again.

In the meanwhile, I am sure that big firms will be lowering the amount of offers they extend to summer associates and first years...

-72->That's to say that of the 15 or so that were laid off, 3 or 4 were able to land a new job before they were formally radiated from Duane Morris. Nice.