Which state takes the longest to get its results out? California? NY?

New York doesn't show up until November I think. That's late.

I hope that everyone who studied hard passed!!!

NY does not come out until the middle of November. CA is earlier, I think.

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU JAKE?

-MAGGIE EMERITUS

Elie
Is the picture trying to suggest that a law degree in Pennsylvania is worth a quarter?

A law degree from Yale is only worth a nickel if I remember correctly. At least that is what Clarence Thomas said. Why would a law degree in Pennsylvania be worth so much more? Or is it all explaned by inflation?

MINN BAR SECURE
woot?

LA bar results get mailed today and posted online tomorrow.

Pennsylvania would be TTT if U.S. News stepped it up and starting ranking states. Without U.S. News telling me what to like, I am lost.

Pennsylvania does the "early results" game every year. They're always posted a business day before the announced release date—or at least they have been for the past 4 years.

passed MN, still no jobs

OH IO is not until October 30th!!!!!!!!!!!!!! soooo longgggg

What's the passage rate for students out of UPenn State generally? Pretty good?

Mass results don't go out until November either...

Any chance VA results will be out early, or at least not late?

CA is always the latest--Friday before Thanksgiving.

TX is slated to come out Nov. 6, but I think they were a day early last year - here's to hoping for one day less of waiting.

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU JAKE?

-MAGGIE EMERITUS

"If you don’t pass, don’t dwell on the past. Just focus on making it happen in February."

Actually, if you fail the first time, you have little chance of ever passing. "Focus on making [a job as a ditch digger] happen in February."

-Latham Secure

Life is sweet without JaKe and his insipid shtick.

20:

Even ditch digging companies are asking why I failed.

CA bar results are bigger than TX bar results.

Also, TX sucks.

SF attorney

JAKE, RETURN, PLEASE.

--MAGGIE EMERITUS

I work for a midsize shop in Altoona PA and I passed the bar!!!!!!!!!

Delaware is out today too -- 60% pass rate.

Elie:

You should say: "Those WHO have a job . . . ."

- Jus keepn' it real

If you can't pass in Pennsylvania on the 1st try, you're probably doomed in today's market. Firms will cast you aside unless you are some once-in-a-decade VIP-type associate!

Maryland = Nov. 6.

So...let me get this straight.

Drexel's first class ever to take the PA Bar ranked third-highest in-state for passage rate. That's below only Penn and Temple. http://www.pabarexam.org/pdf/statistics/july/j2009.pdf

Can you un-accreditate a law school? I'd suggest Villanova/Penn St./Pitt/Rutgers/Widener for their EPIC FAILS

I just bleached my anus during lunch.

The Guy with the freshly bleached anus

Oh yeah...

Let's do it in da butt!
Okaaaaaay!

What a bunch of idiots on this blog. Failing the bar on the first try is NOT a big deal. Every successful attorney has a successful attorney friend who failed the first time and they know the bar is a largely a crock. The only people who OBSESS over bar results are law students, recent law grads, and assholes. Get a life people.

Georgia results don't come out until mid November either

I wonder if the added stress of no jobs will depress bar results this year. A lot of debt-ridden youngsters probably weren't sleeping well in July.

On the bright side, I hear Tennessee is severely under-lawyered.

34 = fail. GA results are released on Oct. 30th. Hope you read the bar exam better than the bar website...

Last year GA results were out on Halloween. It was frightful for the girl who failed.

30 - Not to rush to defend my TTT law school, but Pitt and Villanova both have higher first-time pass rates than Drexel. Barely. Once Drexel gets some of those second, third, fourth and above (aka "just kill yourself") takers, it'll slip down....

Drexel's overall pass rate is 3rd in the state because this is their 1st class taking the bar. Stated another way, Drexel doesn't have any repeat takers. As is shown, repeat takers fare far worse than 1st timers (less than 1/3 of repeaters passed compared to 87% of 1st timers).

When comparing apples to apples, Drexel lags behind the first time takers from UPenn, Temple, Pitt, Widener (HBurg), and Villanova. Overall, Drexel's student's passed at roughly the same rate as all first time takers on the exam.

33,

It is a big deal. Because for the rest of your life everyone will say, "33 is an attorney. He failed the bar once, but now he's an attorney."

MAGGIE WANTS JAKE BACK.

Also, 33 didn't pass the par first time. Or second.

This comment is addressed to post no. 33.

As far as I am concerned, anyone that has to retake the bar exam after failing the first time is a failure who will never be able to achieve redemption. In the past I have refused to work with attorneys (very few at the firm) who have failed the bar exam on their first try. Thus, a bar exam failure will cost a person the enormous and honorable opportunity to have worked for or with me.

30- maybe if you looked at passage rates for all 1st time takers of PA schools, you'll notice drexel is closer to the bottom...ranking 6th, behind even widener. Drexel blows...don't kid yourself

38 Lets be clear - your school is not TTT its T4. However, if you were referring to it as a toilet, then you are correct sir.

What what?

38 and 39 -

These are very good points. You are more astute than I - I suppose primarily because you weren't getting done up the butt like I was!

Ok, so Penn State/Rutgers/Widener-DE/Duquesne are all still in the running for un-accreditation.

Do 'em in the butt!
Okaaay!

Samwell, you so crazy!!!

42 - What about people who fail at shtick on ATL? Will you associate with them? Hmmmm?

maybe "drexel blows" because it was their first class ever and they accepted just about everyone that applied (I hear new schools are pretty desperate to "get students" and other things like that) ... maybe they will get better students and more selective over time?

Samwell owns PE. You so done PE. You done, unless perhaps you take it in the butt?

Meredith Sossman works at Drexel Law.

When does NJ usually come out

Good luck to everyone!

Damn. I passed. This was a back up plan in case I couldn't find anything in New York. Blogged a bit about it. Luckily doc review came through. But at least the option is now there! But not budging till I'm out of debt.

Congrats to all who passed.

Good way to cap the year. Last year around this time I was getting laid off by the firm.

http://laidofflawyer.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/a-day-in-the-life/

49 - while you clearly go to Drexel, this is an excellent point. The worst class Drexel will arguably ever have (wikipedia says median LSAT has gone from 156 that first year to the current 1L class's 160) still beat some of the more established schools. Not to mention their proximity to Villanova, etc in passage rate. Time will telI I suppose, though it looks pretty bad for those schools already lagging. Whatever, fucking TTTs.

48 - Luv u.

56 - do you luv me?

- Quinnremains, pe, jake, latsmom, latsdad, laidoff, emeritius, emeriutis, AND samwell.

Congratulations to all who passed in my home state. I ask those that believe in me to work untiringly for the creation of a true justice system here in the United States, and to press on with the efforts to vindicate me, so that my family and their future families are not tainted by this injustice that has been perpetrated on me.

Please leave the room if you think this will affect you.

As someone who has been practicing for a bit, here's what I take from these results:

Penn- wow- 4 failures out of about 50- back when I took the bar, Penn's passage rate was almost always 100%.

Widener- First, shame on Widener for flooding an already flooded market with 273 lawyers. This was about 25% more than the next highest school.
Second, shame on Widener for having a bar passage rate about 10 percentage points below Drexel

Drexel- It will be interesting to see how many of these people have jobs after 6 months. My problem with Drexel is not the quality of their students (they're no worse than the crap coming out of a lot of other local schools), it is the quantity of new lawyers they are unleashing on the market- lacking alumni ties, they will have few places to go

But I told some friends not to hire anyone from drexel, regardless of their qualifications-
Top 5 in your class at drexel? .... Well I guess someone had to be
Philly lacks the business potential to feed another law school, so we need this school to fail in order to have enough clients to go around. And my guess is that this school closes its doors for good within 4 years.

Villanova- new building or not, this school is a joke. the average villanova grad comes from a lot of money and takes themselves far too seriously, and is incapable of making a decent legal argument- they have the UPenn attitude with the brain capacity of a Rutgers Camden grad, and unles daddy knows somebody, they are usually doing trust and estate work in bucks county for $48k a year

Passed the MN Bar.

I'm hanging out my own shingle. Fuck Big Law. If I'm going to work like a dog, I'd rather have the money (even if less stable) go directly into my pocket.

Hey FYI ==> The SEC's 2010 summer program for 2Ls [1Ls only in NYC] is accepting apps through 12/15/09. Also, the SEC's advanced commitment program for clerks and 3Ls is accepting apps and closes 12/15/2009. For experienced attorneys, our Denver, Atlanta, Washington, and Fort Worth offices are now accepting apps for staff positions. The pay isn't close to BigLaw but there are many other aspects of the job that make it worth considering. Good luck to those who are interested.

59 - go to Temple much? Talk about insecure.

"I told my friend." Are you kidding me?

You are a fucking disgrace to Philadelphia and the legal profession as a whole.

@59

I go to Drexel. Pretty qualified. Went to an Ivy. Wanted Philly and it was hard to pass up the full ride. You won't hire me? Fair enough. I'll stick with the firm In Philly where I was offered.

Doesn't CA still come out the day after Thanksgiving, or are they quicker now?

I found out I passed the PA bar today on my first try. I had a 3.9 grade point average in undergrad and was on law review of a second tier PA school (I'll let everyone guess). My friends want to celebrate (most of them are hoplessly unemployed like me). I will not be celebrating the fact that I choose a truly terrible profession that has left me with crippling debt and no prospect for ANY future employment. I will celebrate when I win the lottery, which I see as the only way I'll ever be happy after the greatest mistake of my life (LAW IS FOR LOSERS).

- 7 yrs of higher education to move back in with your parents (nothing to celebrate their idiots)

Lot of talk about Drexel Law School here. Is Michael Milken the dean?

59 you left out one school. This is obvious Temple trolling. Where do you work in Philly? Can we assume you don't?

Shit, I forgot "pathetic" trolling.

Hey, here is something ATL may want to investigate. Passed PA Bar; not so lucky with DE.

During the BAR-BRI course that I sat through for the DE bar (and PA), I noticed that a lot of the first year lawyers from firms like Richards Layton, Potter Anderson, Young Conaway all had outlines from those individual firms which covered the DE law essays.

Of course, all those special outlines are "proprietary".

Now that is all well and good, until you start to examine who the lawyers are that sit on the Board of Law Examiners- they are the lawyers who create the Delaware law essay questions (which count for 60% of your score).

It looks to me as though many of those same lawyers who sit on the Board (and also grade the test) are from the firms that give out the "proprietary" outlines to their lawyers who are taking the Bar.

Am I the only one who thinks that it is a conflict for these firms to be handing out "proprietary" outlines when those firms have lawyers sitting on the Board?

It would be interesting to know whether any members of that Board also prepare or have read these outlines in advance of grading the the DE essays.

It would be interesting to compare the pass rates of those who are so fortunate to receive these DE law outlines with the rest of the unwashed masses that have to make due with some rather so-so Bar-Bri materials on DE law.

Curious if anyone else thinks seems rather odd or whether I have a case of sour grapes-at least where DE is concerned.

Just raising the issue..........

Yo 61 -- who do you contact for staff positions in DC and Atlanta. Thanks!

I JUST GOT A LETTER telling me I PASSED the Pennsylvania bar...

...but I live in California and never took it.

69 ==> two staff positions are open now in Atlanta - see USAJOBS Vacancy Ann #:09-286601-DQ...these two vacancies arose from retirements...I just went to the announcement and saw that it closes tomorrow...even if you can't apply tomorrow, at least go print out the application and questions/format so you can be prepared for the next posting...the questions are typically the same across all SEC offices and rarely change over time...usually vacancies are open for 2-3 weeks each so it pays to check it every week or two.

Fort Worth closes 10/16 and Denver 10/22 ==> I suggest that people apply to every vacancy and try to get in somewhere and then transfer internally to the office they most prefer...this is what I did and it worked well.

If you miss Atlanta this time, keep watching USAJOBS or SEC.GOV over the next year as expectation is for large increase in Atlanta staff of say 10-15 attorneys. The increase in Washington will be much larger, on the order of at least 50-100 plus replacements for retirements and any turnover. DC will really be ramping up as it is the SEC headquarters office and has the most enforcement attorneys. NYC will be adding the second most staff attorneys.

As for the current DC opening, I just noticed that it is an internal posting for current SEC employees only so sorry for that misinformation...but keep watching.

Finally, the SEC.GOV site http://www.sec.gov/jobs/enf_attorney.htm
is soliciting applications generally [resume, cover letter, and writing sample] and provides guidance on where to submit the application.

HTH and best of luck.

Dear 59,

As someone who has been practicing for a bit, here's what you should take from these results:

"Penn- wow- 4 failures out of about 50- back when I took the bar, Penn's passage rate was almost always 100%."

-- "Almost always" sounds like an average, not a one time statistic (e.g. “when I took the bar, the pass rate was 97% for Penn grads”). Hmm. You wouldn’t mock people who didn’t pass the bar first time if you didn’t yourself, would you?

"Widener- First, shame on Widener for flooding an already flooded market with 273 lawyers. This was about 25% more than the next highest school.
Second, shame on Widener for having a bar passage rate about 10 percentage points below Drexel"

-- Terrible, terrible, terrible. 273 is the amount of people who took the test from Widener, not the amount who actually passed. You can't call people who failed the bar "lawyers" -- they are more like aspiring lawyers. 213 from Widener passed, just 14 more than Temple. I wouldn't call this "flooding" unless you are a Temple law grad worried about losing your income stream to a kid from Widener.

"Drexel- It will be interesting to see how many of these people have jobs after 6 months. My problem with Drexel is not the quality of their students (they're no worse than the crap coming out of a lot of other local schools), it is the quantity of new lawyers they are unleashing on the market- lacking alumni ties, they will have few places to go

-- It will be interesting to see if you have a job after 6 months, because I doubt anyone is paying you for pithy ATL banter. My problem with you is that you seem to be obsessed with quantity and you feel threatened by any shlub who can throw on a tie and show up. You better start making yourself look useful, or at least reach out to your Temple Alumni before your firm sends you packing.

In any case, Alumni connections? Really?! Like anyone outside of HYS gives a shit if you call them up out of the blue for a job interview, hat-in-hand.

“But I told some friends not to hire anyone from drexel, regardless of their qualifications-
Top 5 in your class at drexel? .... Well I guess someone had to be
Philly lacks the business potential to feed another law school, so we need this school to fail in order to have enough clients to go around. And my guess is that this school closes its doors for good within 4 years."

-- Given the state of the economy, I don't think you need to worry your friends about a spontaneous and ill-advised hiring spree, regardless of the candidate's qualifications. In any case, Temple grad, I think the feeling is mutual. I doubt these Drexel grads would want to work for your oxymoronic Elitist-Tier 2 friends.

“Philly lacks the business potential to feed another law school, so we need this school to fail in order to have enough clients to go around. And my guess is that this school closes its doors for good within 4 years."

-- You lack the business potential to feed yourself. My prediction is that you will fail and be homeless, in a van, down by the river, within 4 years.

"Villanova- new building or not, this school is a joke. the average villanova grad comes from a lot of money and takes themselves far too seriously, and is incapable of making a decent legal argument- they have the UPenn attitude with the brain capacity of a Rutgers Camden grad, and unles daddy knows somebody, they are usually doing trust and estate work in bucks county for $48k a year"

-- Wait, now having a network is a bad thing? But seriously, 59, for once, I have to agree with you. You are completely right on. I am a privileged kid who takes myself way too seriously. I can’t put together a decent Common Pleas case. But you forgot one thing. You are getting fired and I am taking your job, because I am much less expensive.

Drexel is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY in the Philadelphia legal market.

Why in the world is the ABA going to accredit them?

This is why there are way too many lawyers for not enough positions, which means ALL of our salaries are lower.

Fact 1: Temple's tuition is about $18,000 a year for in-state. Let me repeat: EIGHTEEN THOUSAND A YEAR.

Fact 2: Temple and Villanova's U.S. News rankings have been about the same for several years now.

Fact 3: Temple just finished second for bar passage rate in the Philadelphia area right under UPenn, which is pretty darn good.

How much is the tuition at Villanova, and how much will it be at Drexel once the scholarships run out? $40,000 a year? $50,000?

Considering all the facts, if you want to work in the Philadelphia area, and you can't get into Penn, the obvious choice is TEMPLE. Really, it's based on facts.

I passed the PA bar when it was real, not the joke that it is now. If you failed you should be ashamed of yourself and moreover, excluded from the practiceof law forever.

Passed Pa. No BarBri or PMBR, baby!

Dear 72- post is too long, I just skimmed it- lawyering 101- if you have a point to make, it should not take 4 pages to get it across. Long response means you are trying to BS your way into saying something. Write something brief, and maybe I'll respond.

67- Nice try, but I went to law school on the West coast. I left Temple out because I respect the place- it is cheap, offers a decent education, and its graduates are grounded and motivated. We have only laid one Temple grad since I have been at my firm and he was an idiot who is still out of work 1 year later- just a bad apple.

If you went to Villanova, you threw a lot of money away- Aside from being able to party it up at Kelly's and Brownies to celebrate the fact you were attending a middle of the road law school in a pleasant but boring suburb, I don't think there's anything that Villanova offers which Temple does not.

Connecticut is up!

Hey 68, I was in the same class and saw those "secret outlines" you are obsessing over, and I had my firm's "secret outline" too.

First, anyone who was in that class from any one of those firms, including me, would have shared a copy of the outlines with you if you had just asked. Indeed, over the course of the summer several people asked me for my "law firm" outline, and I shared it with all of them gladly.

Second, the outlines don't come from the law firms themselves, but from the last year's class of bar applicants, and the year before that, and so on. No one who is involved with the Board of Bar Examiners has anything at all to do with the outlines, and I can't imagine that anyone in that position would even so much as speak to someone who is taking the test, even within his or her own firm. If you don't know that, you're not very familiar with how seriously the members of the Board of Bar Examiners take their responsibilities.

Third, the notes are basically a transcript of the class, as each year the same set of notes gets copied over and added onto until the notes become exactly the same length and content as the lecture. In other words, the notes are practically useless for passing the exam, or only as useful as actually going to the class yourself and listening to what was said.

Fourth, in case you haven't noticed, the value of notes comes from TAKING THE NOTES YOURSELF and not simply carrying around a copy of notes that someone else has created for you. In this regard, having the "secret outlines" is probably a disadvantage, because it can lull you into not bothering with the more difficult task of taking the notes yourself.

68, I'm sorry that you didn't pass, as I have several friends who are in the same boat, but blaming the "secret outlines" is a pretty poor excuse for your results.

79: I have a good friend who missed the DE Bar by only several points two years in a row. I can't speak for 68, but, I think you are missing the point. There is such a thing as an appearance of a conflict of interest. The present system in DE has that aroma.

The key issue is that Board members ought not be in a position of grading exams of lawyers who are employed by their firm. You can speak about how seriously the Board takes its role etc. But, there should be a rule that no lawyer can grade an exam of someone who works for that lawyer's firm. Period.

As I understand it, while the exam taker is assigned a number (I think) somebody at the Board must be know what applicant corresponds to what number. It would seem to follow that each Board member should disclose what applicants are employed by their firm etc.

I am assuming the Board believes it has a fail safe system in place because the applicants names are not on the test- just the applicant number (if I have this wrong, tell me).

But why not avoid the appearance of a conflict? Take the next step.

The next step would be to make sure that when the tests are assigned to the various Board members for grading, they are not given to lawyers who actually employ the lawyer whose test they are grading,

But, that is not done and it creates suspicion about the process. Add to that the fact that there are outlines floating around from firms that seem to have a remarkably high pass rate- no doubt because the lawyers at those firms are smarter than the other 45% of the lawyers that fail every year, and presto- the system begins to be questionned. By the way, were there any review courses conducted at your firm for the Bar? If so, is your firm allowing lawyers not employed at your firm to take the in house review sessions?

You sound like an honest person and I congratulate you on passing the DE Bar, You may want to familiarize yourself with the rather aggressive actions taken by the National Board of Law Examiners about a decade or more ago with respect to Delaware's grading and appeals process with respect to the Bar. You may come away with a more complete understanding of why there are some that question the way the exam is handled- especially since the subjective essays on DE law count for 60% of the grade. That is why people raise issues about who is grading the test and whether certain exam takers have a leg up over others

As far as your offer to share the outline you received from your firm, you should probably call Widener University School of Law and contact their Bar Exam representatives and make it available to them. They can then let other exam takers next year know about its availability.

That is a very generous offer on your behalf-I hope you follow through with your offer.

We will see. Best of luck with your career.

Hey 79, you are rather full of yourself. You are a naive person who has drunk the Kool-Aid, Why do you think the pass rate is so low? Why do they not create a MBE type exam for DE law? They like the essays because it allows for subjectivity in grading. That is why the MBE counts for so little and the essays so much.

You would have shared your outline with anyone who came up to you and asked for it ?

Yeah, right,

Let us know when you have sent your outline to Widener's Bar Review folks as suggested by 80.

I predict that will happen when hell freezes over,

Yup, naive and delusional.

I did have an outline from my firm- pretty good compared to that crap pedaled by BAR-BRI. What a waste of several thousand dollars- except for the MBE materials.

And 79, they do want to keep people out. But, you have to study; be with the right crowd and you will pass,

To 80 & 82,

I read what you wrote, and I agree with some of your points. Yes, Delaware is trying to keep people out, just like any other state, but it's much more egregious in Delaware. No argument with that point.

And I also agree that Delaware weights the essays heavily because that is the one area where Delaware retains ultimate authority over the outcome -- not like the MBE which is graded elsewhere.

But I think you're missing some basic facts about how the grading occurs.

First, as you would know if you took the exam, all of the seat numbers received on the very first day of the exam by applicants are SEALED in envelopes and handed over to an independent accounting firm, which puts them in a safe deposit box until AFTER the pass/fail list is posted by number. Are you saying that a single board member could unseal all 200 or 250 envelopes and find the exact ones that match the applicants from his or her firm? You'd need practically everyone on the board and the independent accounting firm to be in on this "conspiracy"!

Second, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about who does the essay grading. It is not the members of the board. Instead, ALL of the answers to each question are graded by a single team of two lawyers, who are the same lawyers who wrote the question. So for example, all of the contracts essay answers were graded by the two attorneys who wrote the contracts question, all of the torts essay answers were graded by the two attorneys who wrote the torts essay question. The essay answers are not allocated to different firms or different graders, because that in fact would introduce a bias into the results -- caused by the fact that different people grade a particular essay differently. Instead, in Delaware, you can be sure that every single essay answer submitted by any applicant taking the exam was read and graded by the same two graders. The grades for each of the essays are then scaled so that they all have the same relative weight in calculating the total score for each applicant.

Finally, each of the two graders is supposed to read each essay answer separately and then assign it a grade. The two graders then meet to compare their separate grading and make adjustments if their score sheets for any essay answer disagree.

I don't know about you, but with all of this, I don't see where this "appearance of impropriety" arises. All of the graders are working with essays that have NO NAMES on them, the names and numbers being sealed away in a safe deposit box by an independent accounting firm. The board members are not involved in the grading and in fact don't have access to the seat numbers/names information either. All of the essay answers are graded by the same two graders, and each one reads and grades separately before they meet to find out if there are any discrepancies. So how exactly would you fix the results with all of this?

A few other points, then I'll shut up.

82 -- being in the "right crowd" or with the "right firm" doesn't mean anything. I work at one of the big Wilmington firms, and we had people fail this year, just like every other firm.

82 -- I agree that the Bar-Bri material were utter crap. The Delaware state materials given out at Widener were probably worth the entire price of the course, on the other hand, because all of the law you needed to know for the essays is somewhere in those books.

80 & 82 -- The bigger "scandal" here, if there is one, is that if you look at the grading formula very carefully, you'll see that passing or failing the Delaware bar is almost entirely dependent on the pool of people who are taking the exam that year, because all of the significant grading is completely relative. In other words, a passing exam one year could easily be a failing exam the next year, simply because the group in that year studied harder or knew more law going into the exam. I know NY, California and other states say that everyone who takes the exam has the potential to pass, but that is one thing that is not true in Delaware.

Finally, 81, you've got a lot of angry comments for me. Does that mean you are also among those unfortunate ones who didn't pass this year? If so, better luck next year. Post you name and email address here so I can send you my outlines, and maybe you'll be the one writing about how this process isn't so bad in October 2010.

79, 80, 81 and 82: Interesting exchanges. Having obtained my results last week-I passed by the skin of my teeth- I would like to add my thoughts for what they are worth, I think each person has made some excellent points and so I hope that I can make some contribution to this dialogue. In no particular order, here goes:

82: Your email is very detailed. More info about the process than I think I have ever heard. You have great sources.

But, personally, I am of the opinion that the Bar in DE is just desperate to keep out competition. The Bar does not reflect some desire to keep out terrible lawyers. It is not a quality control issue.

What you all are forgetting is that the low pass rate for the DE Bar goes hand in hand with another DE oddity- DE is one of the few states in the US that refuses to grant reciprocity to lawyers from other states.

Even lawyers in NY-which has a challenging Bar- are not given reciprocity in DE. The ONLY reason for that is to keep out competition.

80 and 82: As for the grading of the exams, I read 82's defense of the status quo and 80's view. I have to side with 80. No lawyer should be grading the exam of any other lawyer who works at the same firm.

I would not want to rely on the "good faith" of others when it comes to this issue. I guess you are willing to accept as a given that at no point could the process ever become corrupted. I am not.

This issue could be solved with 80's suggestion of an MBE type of test on DE law. Such a test would NOT require the people who drafted the question to grade the questions as well. The test would be objective.

But, as you point out, that would remove from the Board its "ultimate authority" (I keep thinking of Eric Cartman whenever I read or hear that phrase) which it maintains by approving a subjective grading process. This allows DE to keep a pass rate of 55-60% each year-regardless of who is sitting for the test.

To all of the posters, her is an issue which all of you have failed to bring up: this entire Bar Admissions process is why DE has one of the least diverse Bars in the entire country.

This is very disquieting to me since the Wilmington metropolitan area has one of the highest minority populations per capita in the United States.

The DE Bar does not even remotely reflect that population reality.

All the lip service that is paid to inclusiveness etc, is just that when it comes to Bar admissions in DE.

82: I do give you credit for acknowledging that the Board is intent on keeping people from becoming licensed in DE.

But, you then backtrack and take DE side by engaging in an intellectual sleight of hand when you state, I guess, that passing the DE Bar may actually be easier in some years than passing,say, NY, because it all depends on who is taking the exam.

That presumes of course that each year there is a great diversity in the types of people taking the DE Bar. But, you know as well as I do that that is not the case. The people sitting for the DE Bar are a rather homogeneous group.

There are few people of color sitting for the Bar and even fewer passing it. Wich is why the issueabout the outlines resonates with people who are not working in Wilmington at Skaddden etc.

Most of the recent grads from Widener-which has a diverse student population- avoid the DE Bar because they know the pass rate is artificially limited to 55-60% per year and the test has such a subjective component,

I mean even the application for the Bar is ridiculous. It is designed to inhibit people from applying. The thing is about 60 pages long and it is an invasion of privacy for God's sake (i.e you have to agree to let the Board run a credit check on you)

Clearly, the Board's aim is to make it intimidating for people to even consider sitting for the test. If you have a skeleton in your closet or a crap credit score, the Bar Inquisitors will hunt you down and ferret out the info- and maybe even embarrass you if you have had financial issues in the past etc. apply.

Each step of the way, the goal appears to be to thin the herd.

Secondly, year after year the pass rate hovers around 55-60%. How does that happen without there being a consensus within the Board that they only want that percentage? Do you not see a problem with that approach? (That would be a great hypo in an Anti-Trust law school exam).

Finally, I will leave you all with this thought:we all know that the vast majority of people who pass the DE Bar are those that work in the large firms. I have heard it said that if you were to back out all of the applicants who passed from the major firms in the Wilmington area, the pass rate for the remaining applicants is about 30-35%.

That really is hard to justify. And, it is what leads to the type of hostility heard in 81's voice.

Factor in that we are in a recession and some people have incurred a lot of debt these past three years paying for their education, it makes the DE approach to Bar Admissions (both recent grads and the reciprocity issues) seem un-American.
What DE does not appreciate is that nothing lasts forever. Its hold on being the state where companies incorporate is being challenged by other states looking for fees; the federal government is contemplating a series of national regulations over corporate governance which may end up putting DE's
corporate cottage industries out of business. Then DE lawyers will wish they had reciprocity with other neighboring states.

Dear 84,

All valid points about the relative number of minority attorneys in the Delaware bar -- I agree. During the Delaware bar review at Widener, there was an additional class for minority students who wanted more practice with writing essays and other sorts of things like that. It's a step in the right direction, but I doubt it will ever be enough to make up for the large difference between the percentage of minority attorneys and percentage of minorities generally in Delaware.

One small point -- I'm not sure if you are correct about Wilmington having one of the largest percentage minority population in the United States. I don't know where to find the exact statistics for Wilmington, but I do know the percentage of minority population for New Castle County as a whole (because it comes up all the time in jury selection) -- around 15 or 16%. Now, that is more of a minority presence than in some areas of the country, but could that be one of the largest in the United States? I doubt it. I'd be interested in knowing the exact statistics for Wilmington, if you have them.

Also, regarding the grading of essays, I keep coming back to this question, and if you have an answer, I'd honestly like to hear it. I agree that if someone from Skadden is taking the bar and someone else from Skadden is grading one of the essay answers AND THE PERSON DOING THE GRADING KNOWS WHICH PAPER BELONGS TO HIS COLLEAGUE, then the grading is irreparably biased and the system is broken. You win that point, no arguments here. But what about the situation where the person grading the essay answers knows that somewhere in that pile of 250 answers is one belonging to a colleague but HE HAS NO IDEA WHICH ONE?! I think you'd have to agree that, when the grader has absolutely no idea which answer out of 250 belongs to his colleague, then the bias in the grading process is precisely zero. He can only try to favor ALL answers by the some amount, but this sort of skewing is removed when all of the essay grades are normalized and converted from raw scores to scaled scores.

So the favoritism problem comes down to just one question -- does the person doing the grading have any realistic way of finding out which number goes with which applicant? And this is one area where I can tell you that Delaware seems to go to extreme, ridiculous, even theatrical lengths to show that the names are kept separate and secure throughout the grading process. There's the signed, sealed envelopes, the independent accounting firm, the repeated instructions NOT to reveal your number or place any other identifying marks on your exam at the risk of having your application tossed. Sure, all of these steps, involving dozens or scores of different people, could be pure fiction, but doesn't that seem a bit far-fetched at some point?

Also, I didn't want to get into too much of the math behind the scores here, but you can also take my word for it that even if you had a colleague boost your score on one of the essay answers by 10 or 15 points, it would actually do very little for you unless you had people at every other firm boosting your scores on the other 7 essay answers (and 2 MPTs) by a similar amount.

And you'd have to explain to me how you could find TWO separate graders willing to be equally dishonest -- since every one of the answers is graded twice, and any discrepancies have to be resolved in a conference between the two graders.

And you'd have to explain to me why each of these essay graders (generally mid to upper level associates or younger partners) would be willing to risk being disbarred -- that is, destroying their entire livelihood, reputation, and any chance of making above a minimum wage income (if they even manage to stay out of jail) -- just so a lowly first year associate can pass the bar in a state where first year associates are a dime a dozen. I mean, that is the biggest mystery of all to me.

Finally, and most important, congratulations on passing the bar. You say you passed by the skin of your teeth, but they do not put that information on your license, right?! So that means you studied just exactly the right amount to get the job done efficiently. I know you're not talking about Delaware, because Delaware does not release your scores if you pass, but good luck in whatever state you did conquer.

To 85: I am not sure if 84 passed in DE or in PA (probably the latter since this post starts out with reference to the early release of PA Bar results). But, 84 makes some extremely valid points for which you have no rebuttal.

DE's failure to grant reciprocity to lawyers from neighboring states is an obvious effort to block competition and to protect their own. Your post completely ignored that issue.

As for the grading of the exam, sounds to me like you are conceding that the lack of an objective test on DE law is by design and motivated by an effort to control who gets in.

But, in the next breath you defend the protocols set up to ensure that the subjective portion of the test is graded with the utmost of virtue.

The problem is that the same people who have conspired (sorry for that word choice) to limit the percentage of people who pass are the same ones who created the virtuous protocols of which you speak.

In short, I think your argument can be summarized as follows: We have a dishonest motive ( artificially limiting the number of lawyers so the citizens of DE have fewer choices of counsel and have to pay higher fees) but we have created a honest mechanism by which to carry out that motive.

As far as your statements that the DE lawyers on the Board are very honorable and would not risk their careers by overtly discussing the exam with applicants from their own firms, I am sure you are right about that.

But, what I am also sure of is that in a state where every point on an exam is critical, having outlines from the major firms with proven track records of successful applicants containing all the DE law buzzwords is a clear advantage to those who receive them. If that were not the case, why would the firms bother giving the outlines out to their lawyers who have to sit for the Bar? If they had no discernible value, why bother? Common sense dictates that the outlines are valuable.

Sitting on the outside looking in, these outlines created by successful applicants is in itself a form of "affirmative action" for those in fortunate enough to be employed by those particular firms. To that extent, 84 is correct that it contributes to maintaining the status quo and is one reason why the Bar is not diverse.

Now, I am not saying all of this to denigrate your efforts in passing the DE Bar. It is a great accomplishment. Merely possessing the outlines is not going result in a passing score. You have to study and apply the material. But, I think you need to see how this all looks to outsiders.

Finally, I would like to return to the reciprocity issue. I have a few more years of "real life" practice of law and so perhaps I am more jaded than you are in your stage of your career. But, a word of advice, do not always believe what those in authority say.

I am aware of a disturbing practice engaged in by DE lawyers who do not sit for the NY Bar but who later want to be admitted in NY. Now, as you know, NY does not grant reciprocity to DE lawyers because DE does not return the favor.

instead of doing the virtuous thing (i.e. sitting for the NY Bar as NY Lawyers wishing to practice in DE must do if they want to practice in DE), DE lawyers have stumbled upon a way to gain admission into NY which reveals they are as slick or slicker than the lawyers from those less gentile and more diverse state bar associations.

Are you aware of the practice where lawyers in DE avoid taking the NY Bar by waiving into DC and then once being admitted in DC, applying for reciprocity admission in NY?

During the interview process in NY for their NY admission, they represent that they are "DC lawyers". Of course, to do otherwise just alerts NY that the DE lawyer is trying to circumvent the no reciprocity rule of NY for DE lawyers.

So, while the DE lawyer is being technically correct when he tells a NY Bar official that he is a member of the DC Bar, the DE lawyer is not disclosing to the NY Bar representative that the only reason the DE lawyer is a "DC lawyer" is because the DE lawyer did not want to have to sit for the NY Bar.

In other words, here is another example of a dishonest motive -the DC Bar membership was not obtained because of any interest in contributing to the betterment of the DC Bar, but solely to gain admission to NY

And so knowing that DE lawyers are capable of such sharp practices in gaining NY Bar admissions, I am not as willing as you are to vouch for the DE Bar- especially when some of the largest firms in DE have had lawyers engage in this bit of slickness-and those firms have people sitting on the Board.

Again, I know you studied hard to pass the DE Bar and I am sure you are a very smart person. You know how to argue your strongest points; when to concede other points and how to still ignore other points (DE's refusal to grant reciprocity to lawyers from other states all the while remaining silent about some of their own lawyers machinations to secure admission in other states).

"Educated criminals work within the law"- Morrissey.

Best of luck.......

On the other hand,

To 86,

Thanks for the comments. I wrote 79, 83 and 85 above, and I may have left out points in one post that are covered in others.

Anyway, there is no doubt that Delaware makes it very, very difficult to join the bar, and one part of that equasion is giving no reciprocity to other states' attorneys. You could have the most difficult bar exam in the universe, but it would be meaningless if you then offered reciprocity, because then everyone would simply take another state's exam and then "waive in" through reciprocity. So the reciprocity and the ridiculous bar exam go hand in hand, right? Both are sides of the same coin.

The real issue, then, is whether Delaware has any legitimate reason for making admission to the bar exam so incredibly difficult. (No one has yet even mentioned the Delaware "clerkship" requirements, which take up months and months of unbillable time, even after one manages to pass the exam.)

You'd say that the reason for the difficulty is to keep out competition or prop up the local bar. The Delaware Supreme Court would say it's about keeping up the quality of the attorneys in Delaware courts and not having a legal system that is stuck with attorneys admitted by reciprocity who are nothing more than the lowest common denominator of other states' admission processes.

The truth, I will acknowledge, is probably somewhere in the middle. But before you go dismissing the Delaware Supreme Court view as just a fiction to cover up the conspiracy, consider this.

Delaware has a court system that companies across the United States and around the world are trying to bring their cases into. The Wilmington courthouse has foreign government visitors every week, who are coming to study the Delaware court system and find out how to reproduce it in their own countries. There's also a degree of professionalism and courtesy between Delaware attorneys that you would never see in New York, Pennsylvania or any of the surrounding states.

So my question to you is this. If Delaware has come up with a formula for a very, very successful court system and attorney admission process -- one that results in lots and lots of people wanting to use the Delaware courts to litigate their disputes -- then doesn't that show that there is at least some legitimate motivation behind the impossible bar exam/no reciprocity rules?

I will address the admission to DC point that you raised in a separate post.

87: I look forward to your post on DE lawyers using the DC Bar to gain reciprocity into the Bars of those other less civilized states.

I suspect that you may be conferring with colleagues to see how best to address this issue. Candidly, I am surprised you acknowledged the practice exists.

Frankly, given your post about how other states have such low standards for their lawyers, why would DE lawyers want to be colleagues with lawyers from NY, NJ, PA etc.?

You and I both know that the waiving into other states via DC is wrong on an ethical level. While DE demands that lawyers from other states sit for the Bar, its own lawyers have figured out a way to scam these other state Bars.

Where is the fairness in that and it is strange to me that the Delaware Supreme Court has not already addressed this practice. If it has issued any opinions on the conduct, I would like to know what the Court has to say about the practice.

I am sure that others reading this post can't wait to hear the justification/explanation/ for DE lawyers using the DC bar to gain admittance to states which do not have reciprocity with DE.

There's a hornet's nest here.

88-Forget waiting for 87 to respond in a separate "post" about the DC Bar maneuver.

Just raise the issue yourself with these other state Bars.

It is their call as to whether to start an investigation into this practice.

It does not matter what 88 says or what DE Bar/ Courts say. They have no jurisdiction over these state Bars. Maybe these states know about the practice and accept it- I doubt it.

Also, send 88's last post about how unprofessional the lawyers are in PA, NJ and NY to those state Bars as well. What arrogance.

No "separate post" from 87 yet re: DE lawyers getting around the "no reciprocity" rule from neighboring states by applying for admission to the DC Bar *(which has reciprocity with NY, NJ, PA and other states) and then using that admission to obtain admission in the states that do not grant reciprocity to DE.

Why am I not surprised?

Yes, there is a story here for some enterprising journalist covering the legal world.

Talk about chutzpah.......

Yes, 87 replied to 86 at 11:18 A:M this morning promising a post on the "DC issue".

11 hours later and still no post on the DC issue.

Hmmm......

Looks like the lawyer who just passed the DE Bar is not going to post anything about the DC issue.

But then again, what's to say?

Dear 88 through 91,

Um, I got up from the computer to go outside and enjoy the day for a little bit. Excuse the delay in getting back to you.

I also had time to do a bit of research. As it turns out, to be admitted through reciprocity in New York, Pennsylvania or New Jersey (I didn't get a chance to check any others), the person requesting admission MUST IDENTIFY ALL STATES IN WHICH HE OR SHE IS ADMITTED AND MUST SUBMIT GOOD STANDING CERTIFICATES FROM EACH STATE. There's no exceptions to this rule, and failure to identify a state in which the applicant is already admitted is an intentionally false statement, punishable like any other false or fraudulent statement on a bar application.

Now, as I understand this latest "conspiracy" (and indeed, the substance of the nefarious "conspiracy" changes every time I post another response), attorneys from Delaware are "waiving in" to DC and then using this admission to the DC bar as a basis for "waiving in" to practice in NY. But, when these Delaware attorneys apply to "waive in" to NY, they are actually required to identify ALL state bars in which they are admitted to practice -- including Delaware.

Now this brings up two possibilities. If an attorney is being dishonest about his bar admissions and hiding his admission to the Delaware bar, then I would agree with you -- that person does not deserve admission in NY or any other state, and if (or more probably when) that information comes to light, he or she will probably be disbarred by Delaware. (And the vast likelihood is that the information would be discovered, as I understand that at least NY and NJ require copies of your bar applications to all of the other states in which you claim you are admitted, so any dishonest DE attorney would at least have to disclose his or her DC bar application, which would list his or her admission in DE, and so forth.)

On the other hand, what about an attorney from Delaware who honestly lists both admission to Delaware AND DC in the NY application? Are you saying that these people who disclose ALL bar admissions (and are admitted in good standing in both Delaware and DC) should be denied admission in NY?

If so, then what you're actually saying is that there's a problem with NY's rules here. NY admits attorneys from Delaware who are also admitted to DC, but you're saying that NY should exclude these attorneys -- because of their admission in Delaware and regardless of any other states in which they may be admitted.

Well, ok, if that's what you're arguing here, but it would seem to me at this point that your real beef here is with New York and not the Delaware attorneys applying to "waive in" there. Because as long as the rule in NY is to allow attorneys to "waive in" provided they are admitted to at least one other jurisdiction besides Delaware, then it does not seem like any kind of "conspiracy" or scandal that Delaware attorneys are doing just that.

Anyway, let me know if I am misunderstanding your point. And also let me know if you are taking any steps to lobby for a change in the rules for admission to NY. Because it's pretty easy to accuse others of unethical conduct in a comment to a legal blog while remaining anonymous yourself, and something quite different to get involved in your state's bar authority, contribute your talents and efforts, and work towards changing the law or rule that you think is unfair. Thanks.

Here I thought that DE lawyers were the most professional, honest "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" types (at least based on your ridiculous defense of the reciprocity rules in DE). But, based on your last post, it seems that DE lawyers play the angles like all those other lawyers from the less civilized world that DE does its best to keep out.

So, just so I am clear, you have no problem with a DE lawyer intentionally seeking admission to the Bar in DC so that the DE lawyer can take advantage of a loophole that allows the lawyer to seek admission in other states that do not have reciprocity with DE.

Is that your position?

I went on line and looked at the DE Bar application and DC. Lots of talk about "candor before the Bar".

So, let's be candid here. Those DE lawyers who
waive" into DC are not waiving in for a good faith reason (i.e. a desire to represent clients in DC or to do pro bono work in DC". Their application for membership in the DC Bar is a way to avoid the no reciprocity position of those other states.

Inherent in the application to the DC Bar is a
"good faith" requirement. But, there is no good faith on the part of the DE lawyer when he/she concots this strategy. I am willing to guess that as soon as the DE lawyer gets admitted to the neighboring jurisdiction, the attorney soon allows tat DC membership to expire or allows it to go on "inactive" status.

So, your last post peels away that rather elitist view you hold that DE lawyers are somehow superior to the other lawyers

You have acknowledged, whether you know it or not, that DE lawyers are proficient at exploiting a loophole.

As far as NY or NJ being at fault for not recognizing that this is going on, point taken. That still does not restore the luster to the DE Lawyer brand which you went on and on about in your earlier posts.

So, enough about how ethical, honest and distinguished the DE lawyer is. This practice reveals that the DE Bar is not a diety.

As for what happens next, I think that the DE lawyers who have engaged in this practice should be concerned. You see, when you waive into these other states, you are actually interviewed (at least in NY) in Albany.

I tend to doubt that everyone in these interviews are acknowledging that they 1.) have no interest in practicing in DC and 2.) have sought the admission solely to turn around later and obtain admission in NY.

And you are right, if there was any non-disclosure in the interview process about the true intent for seeking admission in DC, those lawyers should be disciplined.

These are all interesting issues and there are facts here that neither of us know. It will be up to those Bars to review the applications submitted; the interviews of those lawyers etc.).

And, I suspect that once this is brought to light to the NY, PA, NJ etc. state bars and their members realize what is going on, change will come quickly.

Finally, my "beef" is not with the individual state Bars. It is with the DE Bar which has looked the other way with regard to this practice.

And so, if DE lawyers can find a way to corrupt the reciprocity rules via a bad faith application to the DC Bar, who knows what else is going on???????

"Candor Before The Bar" = Fully disclosing why you are applying to DC.It is not up to the DC Bar to engage in a deposition of the applicant to determine why that lawyer is applying.

92-it is assumed that the applicant intends to PRACTICE LAW IN DC.

What are these state Bars supposed to do? They say no reciprocity with DE. That's their position. Just like DE has a position of no reciprocity.

92, so the DC Bar is not entitled to expect that applicants are applying in good faith? NY is supposed to expend resources trying to find out that DE lawyers are doing this end around?

I am making a call to the Second Judicial District here in NY first thing tomorrow.

I have to take the DE Bar because I am some kind of inferior lawyer in the eyes of the DE Supreme Court (wasn't there a post a few months ago about the Chief Justice of the DE Supreme Court sending sexist jokes about women to other lawyers in DE? Yes, that is some upstanding behavior)

But, DE lawyers get to waive into NY through a bogus DC Bar membership obtained solely to avoid taking our Bar?

I think I have heard it all now.

Dear 93 and 94,

You're the ones who claim that this practice is unethical and scandalous, so the burden is ON YOU to make your case. And you are missing something basic here.

Where does it say that joining the DC bar for the purpose of waiving into NY is prohibited? I looked at the application for waiving in to DC, and there is not one question about the "reasons" why an applicant wants to join the bar. If the application or the court's rules or some authority somewhere said that "you are prohibited from joining the DC bar unless you intend to practice law there on at least some kind of regular basis", then you'd have a point. But there isn't, and so you don't.

You don't believe me? Check the application yourself. And while you're in DC, what about all the tens of thousands of attorneys from across the entire country who are admitted to practice before the US Supreme Court? I'm sure that at least 90% of these lawyers applied for admission because they wanted to have the big US Supreme Court certificate to hang in their offices. And there's no problem with that. The closest that most of these attorneys will ever get to the US Supreme Court is in a car driving past it. But so long as each attorney meets the requirements for admission and fulfills the ethical obligation to answer all of the questions on the application (and in any interview) truthfully and completely, then there's no scandal or ethical violation at all.

So do you have any rule or case law or any other kind of legal authority to back up your arguments? I would be interested to see what you have.

I know that you know that these applications to the DC Bar for purposes of waiving into other jurisdictions are not being made in GOOD FAITH!

And, yet, you defend the practice. (you should show these posts to whatever partner you work for- you will score many points as a true "Company Man or Company Woman").

You just can't bring your self to admit that DE lawyers are scamming, can you?

Let's recap for the audience (which will include the Disciplinary Boards of the "No Reciprocity" states you hold in such contempt) what is going on here:

1.) DE gets to protect its fiefdom by denying reciprocity to lawyers from NY, PA and other states.

2.) But, the DE lawyer, being so much more professional and brighter than the rest of lawyerdom, (your language not mine-see your post at 11:18 yesterday morning), pool their collective talents and figure out a way to gain admission to the Bars of NY, NJ and PA w/o having to take their Bar Exams;

4.) The DE lawyers engage in this exercise to beat the system even though the DE lawyers are aware of the "no reciprocity" rules of those states;

5.) Instead of living within the system DE created (and people like you benefit from), lawyers in DE look for a way to get the benefit of their system (keeping others out) without paying the price for their selective admission process (no reciprocity from NY or other states).

I think that that accurately explains the situation,

I return to your earlier posts where you pontificate about how the Bar in DE is so selective because it wishes to maintain its "high standards" blah, blah, blah.

But, when you are confronted with a practice engaged in by lawyers in DE which is a pure end around the "No Reciprocity" rules of neighboring states, your defense of this rather despicable practice can be summed up as follows- "Well, OK, we do that, but, after all, its legal".

And so, the DE lawyer continues to siphon off legal work from lawyers in states like NY, PA, NJ etc. all the while denying their "colleagues" in those states access to legal work in DE by denying them reciprocity.

And you are proud of this practice?

Nothing but a bunch anglers-that is all you folks are.

The more you defend this practice, the more I intend to follow this issue up with these other state Bars.

What is remarkable about all these posts is how far you have sunk. Your early posts were filled with bromides about the stellar quality of the DE lawyer and how they are the most ethical of creature- all the while you defended their ridiculous "no reciprocity" rules; the fact that bar applicants from major firms in Wilmington had access to outlines which are updated yearly successful candidates; the "subjective" nature of 60% of the test etc.

Now look at you. Reduced to demanding that I meet some burden of proof that this practice is unethical. You sound like a criminal defense attorney at a Preliminary Hearing.

Pathetic.

Hey, 96, maybe one reason for the high quality of legal work here in Delaware is that we're expected to use actual statutes, case law and legal analysis to make persuasive arguments, and not rely on whining and name calling.

So, since you've taken the liberty of summarizing my arguments, allow me the opportunity to do the same to yours:

1. You think it stinks that Delaware attorneys can be admitted by motion into DC and then be admitted by motion into NY.

2. You don't know of any rule or decision or any other legal authority that prohibits the practice.

3. You agree that NY, DC and DE all allow the practice without any questions or reservations whatsoever.

4. But YOU still think the practice stinks, and therefore all Delaware attorneys are pathetic losers, frauds and "anglers".

Well, excuse me, but if this is what passes for legal reasoning or advocacy in the state where you practice, then Delaware has yet one more reason to keep its no-reciprocity rule in place.

Nice chatting with you.

97: Nice try to climb out of the hole you dug for yourself.

I did not "agree" with you that PA, NY and NJ allow the practice w/o "reservation"?

Where did I say that?

They just have not discovered this fraud yet- but trust me- they soon will. And from what I have learned, the lawyers in DE try to be quite discrete about this practice for precisely the reasons I have stated-they know it is wrong and that the application is not being made in good faith.

The purpose behind the application is not to practice in DC or to even attend a "ceremony" at the Supreme Court. Yes, those purposes are legitimate.

But, the only reason why the DE lawyers are waiving into DC is to circumvent the Supreme Court of NY;'s prohibition on granting reciprocity to DE lawyers. I think they may call that common law fraud.

By the way, any lawyers at your firm ever do the DC to NY Bar Admission two-step? If it is so ethically sound and legal, why don't you tell us who those lawyers are? Maybe they can share with us why they think this is appropriate.

We can also pull their admission papers and see what kind of disclosures were made or not made.

After all, you have again retreated into the mantra that DE lawyers are of the highest integrity, skill, honesty, professionalism etc.

In light of that, you should have no hesitancy in giving all of us who have been engaging you these last several days the names of the lawyers in your firm that have obtained admission this way.

Let's see if you have the guts to share with us their names.

Probably not.

Stay tuned 97.

98,

So, same old story from you. Everything is a "fraud;" which you're going to (oh no!!) report to the authorities. You want me to give you names -- to show you I "have the guts." Sheesh, this is like third grade recess.

Well, not to burst your bubble, but I don't know anyone who has ever done what we've been talking about for the past two days -- and I never said I did.

What I did say is that the practice of applying to the DC bar for the purpose of then applying to the NY bar ISN'T PROHIBITED ANYWHERE IN THE RULES and, if it is done, IS APPARENTLY DONE OUT IN THE OPEN, given the questions that attorneys would have to answer truthfully and completely to be admitted to either jurisdiction. I don't even care whether or not you agree with either of these points, because these points come directly from the DC and NY bar admission websites. (Read them yourself sometime, you might learn something.)

In contrast, I have also asked you, several times now, to show what sort of legal authority you have to support your claim that this practice is "fraudulent." Anything will do -- a rule, a court decision, a regulation, anything at all.

But of course you don't have anything like that, do you? Sure, you keep saying it's fraudulent because it's fraudulent, but that doesn't really help your argument. And here's a quick bar tip for you -- fraud requires a FALSE STATEMENT or OMISSION; attorneys who apply to NY and disclose on their applications that they are also members of the Delaware and DC bars are not making either a false statement or an omission.

So, in Delaware as in most other states, if you have nothing to support your position, that means you lose, my friend.

Anyway, this has been fun, but I have to get back to work now. Have a good life, and maybe you'll change your mind and take the bar exam here in Delaware next year. It would be a great way to show how "pathetic" and "corrupt" the rest of us are, right? So keep me posted. Thanks.

99: This has been entertaining. I am not sure whether the others that have posted or replied have found this as enlightening. We look at this from two different perspectives.

Yours is entirely predicated on whether or not this maneuver is "legal". I have read the websites and the applications for the admission by motion.

There is no specific question "Hey, are you joining DC just to waive in next month in NY?" or "Hey, you say you are a DC lawyer, but I also see you have a DE ticket, did you obtain the DC ticket because you know that we do not have reciprocity with DE and you wanted to avoid taking our Bar?".

Nope, those questions are not there. Whether the DE lawyers are honestly disclosing the full extent of their memberships in other states on the NY application, neither I nor you, friend, know for sure.

I have asked that that be examined since I know that when I tell my colleagues in our humble state about this maneuver, they are very disturbed by it- for all the reasons I suggested.

My perspective is that as colleagues before our respective Bars, it is not healthy for the profession if one group of lawyers tries to manipulate the system we have agreed to abide by.

I have done some research. It was DE that set the tone here when it refused to grant reciprocity to other states. Other states responded in kind.

Everyone was more or less content. But then, the DE lawyers (after all your are the best and the brightest- why just ask any of you), figured out a way around the no reciprocity rule.

I have asked you repeatedly whether or not you think this is fair- and your reply is,always, that it is "legal".

Best of luck in DE. It is doubtful that I will sit for that Bar-not smart enough.

But, if you ever waive into NY via DC, let me know.

Regards.

100,

Thanks for returning the discussion to a more professional tone. Happy to respond in kind.

I agree that your last post captures the essence of the dispute here. Waiver into NY via DC would appear to be allowed by the rules of both states, assuming that the attorney in question has fully and accurately disclosed membership in all bars. You say that DE attorneys, having denied other states reciprocity, cannot now "take advantage" of this opening to join other states' bars. I say that the "fault" (if there is one) belongs to states like NY, because they have the power to make a rule like you suggest but have not, and until then, there is nothing inherently fraudulent or evil about the practice. So we don't have to cover that ground again.

But what about this angle -- you would propose a rule where a Delaware attorney is prohibited from waiving into DC and then relying on the DC admission to waive into NY. But what about the far more common situation where a DE attorney is also a member of the bar of PA or NJ by having sat for the exam in those states? Or even more on point, what about the attorney who becomes a member of the DC bar AND THEN sits for and passes the DE bar?

See, your rule would have anyone who is a member of the DE bar be denied admission in NY (or any other state), even when that person is also a member of another state's bar. But there's lots of situations where an attorney may have membership in several state bars, including bars where that attorney has taken and passed the state's exam. Or would you require each state to disbar any attorney who becomes a member of the DE bar?

I guess the point is that your theory -- that anyone who is a member of DE and DC bars who applies for admission to NY is doing so illegitimately -- isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be, and you might find that many, if not all, DE attorneys who have admission in other states, including DC, have entirely legitimate and good faith reasons for seeking admission there.

And best of luck to you in your practice, wherever it may be located. I'm sure Delaware would be fortunate to have you practice here, but our loss is another state's gain.

101-Always good to end a positive note. We have used local counsel in DE and have found them to be as professional as you say,

I think we more or less understand each other although we do not agree.

And, no, I am not suggesting that PA disbar a lawyer who sat for the PA Bar and then sat for the DE Bar and passed. That is not what "reciprocity" involves. But, I know that you know that.

The lawyer who is a member of the DE Bar who waives into DC and then several months later begins a campaign to waive into NY, PA or NJ or MD is circumventing the no reciprocity rule-albeit "legally".

Do I think it exhibits the act of a person who is being honest in their actions? Of course not. Is the lawyer looking to gain and advantage over his/her colleagues in NY? by doing this? Of course he/she is.

Being barred in two of the toughest jurisdictions in which to gain admitance is a personal benefit to that lawyer.

And if you gain admittance to the one jurisdiction w/o taking the bar via this DC-NY "angle", well, you have just made yourself more valuable to your corporate clients-which are generally headquartered here but are incorporated in DE.

The NY lawyer on the other hand, suddenly is not as valuable to that client pool,

In short, these DE lawyers are poster boys/girls for Darwinism.

I agree with you that based on the DC application and the NY application for admission by motion, there are questions which inquire into the motivation for the request. It appears as though the DE lawyer is acting within the law by completing the apps-assuming they are not concealing their DE residence from NY or that they work in DE.

I have no idea, nor do you, whether or not the applications that are being submitted are fully disclosing all information called for or whether these attorneys are listing DC residences so that it does not draw attention from the NY Bar folks when they look at the application.

You would like to think that they are, but, my call this morning to our court system when I explained this end around and how the applications really do not address the issue was met with, and I quote "..Oh, really, that is what the DE lawyers are doing? Let me get your name and I am going to speak with our Director..."

So, the issue is now in play.

I certainly have no issue with a lawyer in DE who wants to practice in DC joining that bar and actually practicing there.

Whether NY or PA or NJ wants to let that admission by motion to DC apply to a lawyer who principally practices in DE and is looking to avoid the NY Bar is up to them to decide.

But, from what I have witnessed, there are quite a few lawyers from some of the largest firms with offices in NY, DE and DC that have joined the Bar here in NY although they were DE lawyers for a all of their years of practice via this route. They have not practiced in DC or live in DC-ever- but they are here in NY through this rather unfortunate practice.

So, I will leave you with this thought: I am always very watchful of lawyers who engage in these practices. While they may be "legal" (again assuming they are truthful throughout this process), but, they are the type of lawyers who look for ways to gain an advantages and never think about the equities (a topic I am sure you have studied recently) of what they are doing.

Remember, there is law and then equity.Do not always focus on the first.

Once I sense that a lawyer has no problem with engaging in such maneuvers, I avoid these types like the plague. They eventually will take advantage of you at some point.

P.S. If DE wanted a more diverse Bar, it would allow reciprocity of lawyers with ten plus years experience into their Bar.

But, the lack of reciprocity almost insures that the Bar will remain white.

That is bad especially for the City of Wilmington which is about 55% minority.

I, too, have to return to the piles on my desk.

Best of luck down there in The First State ( and I should not be so hard on it since we have a house in Bethany-great beach,)

To #59:

I don't know where you got your information about the bar passage rate, but you are incorrect. In fact, Widener Harrisburg ranked third in the state. Widener's bar passage rate was 94.32% for first time exam takers. Drexel was ranked number six.Take a look at this:

1. Pennsylvania: 96.08% (#8)
2. Temple: 95.57% (#65)
3. Widener-Harrisburg: 94.32% (Tier 4)
4. Pittsburgh: 92.86% (#71)
5. Villanova: 90.57% (#61)
6. Drexel: 89.84% (not ranked)
7. Penn State: 89.22% (#65)
8. Duquesne: 88.00% (Tier 4)
9. Widener-Delaware: 84.93% (Tier 4)
10. Rutgers-Camden: 78.83% (#77)

So #59, go ahead and bash Widener and other PA law schools all you want. Clearly, Widener's Harrisburg campus is doing something right and deserves to be accredited. I'm glad that I will be going back to Maryland when I graduate from Widener (yes, I am a Widener student and proud of it) so that I won't encounter a jerk like you in the "flooded market" where you practice.