First to invade Kashmir.

Legalized it!

Did Elie leave after Lat bitched about him on facebook and twitter over the weekend?

BTW Lat, that was shitty. If you have a problem with someone, say it TO THEM, not the world.

I echo what the small boutique BK firm lawyer said. I too work at a personal BK firm. It is NOT what I planned on doing when I went to law school, but for most of the lawyers here it isn't. It sounds like the lawyer described above at least has a cordial work environment. Mine is far from it. Very hostile, screaming/yelling. People are encouraged to rat each other out, and threatening to fire people is the norm.

I feel good when I help people that are really having a hard time, but for a lot of people, they just don't want to pay their credit cards. Some people I talk to that are legal secretaries make more money than I do, and I have 6 figures worth of debt right now! So that can be frustrating.

Needless to say, as my first job out of law school I'm miserable. I am thankful that I at least have a job right now, and it's paying something. Anyway, personal BK law is very gritty. You deal with unsophisticated clients all the time. If you like that kind of work, great, this may be for you. But for me . . . I don't want to be a lawyer anymore, and I'm exploring other options.

Hopefully other BK lawyers are having a better go at it!

The thing about bankruptcy practice is that sometimes you have to repeatedly thrust your case through loopholes before you achieve discharge.

I clerked for a bankruptcy judge and although I went on to practice in the financial law field, most of the other clerks that I knew have stayed in or come back to bankruptcy practices with stable jobs in small, mid-sized, large firms, and government. I've drawn on bankruptcy background extensively in my own practice. Bankruptcy is a good focus for law students to develop either a corp fin or litigation background.

First to post a real comment.

Number 5 was the first to post a real comment :o)

Lathamed to small law here. Small firms suck. Like 5 said the clients are unsophisticated. We have no perks. There is no support. My supes are not that bright. Pay is much less than biglaw.

I'll leave law if I have to stay in this shithole.

4, if you'd actually followed Lat on FB or Twitter, you'd know that he's expressed his frustration directly, in an "aggressive-aggressive" (not passive-aggressive) way.

8,
I resent that.

-2

5- For what it's worth, I have been where you are. I worked for a consumer bankruptcy mill for two years. I can relate to the satisfaction of assisting someone without health insurance who has been hammered by cancer, and can also relate to the frustration of dealing with unsophisticated clients who simply do not want to pay their bills. I too reached the point where I did not "feel like a real lawyer", was miserable, and began to explore options outside of practicing law.

I am now with a small firm (18 lawyers), where I do T&E and general litigation. I have also drawn on my bankruptcy experience to represent creditors in bankruptcy court. My current gig is more of what I envisioned when I started law school, and is more satisfying - isn't it funny how our level of satisfaction in life (and in the law) is largely dictated by our expectations? Anyway, I would encourage you to try another practice area before you leave the lawyering world for good. For me it has made all the difference.

Good luck.

Lat,
I work in such a shop. I don't have a lot of time so with your permission here are some random observations:
1. It's not a booming area. It's a very competitive field and we have to fight for anything above the $595 yellow pages bankruptcy.
2. That being said we haven't had any layoffs and we're busy, but only busy enough to make our hours requirements.
3. It's very hard to get your foot in the door as an entry level associate. We are looking for at least 2-3 years of solid experience because we don't have the time or resources to train you.
Bankruptcy boutique guy.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/400/45137997.jpg

I left the real estate group at a BigLaw firm to join a bankruptcy boutique. I did it for job security. The work we do is very sophisticated - mostly Chapter 11 work representing debtors and principals of debtor companies. Sometimes we handle a consumer Ch. 7 pro bono. I think the experience has been phenomenal. I definitely get a lot more substantive work/responsibility than at my BigLaw firm - I was taking depositions and making appearances in court within 4 months.

The pay is slightly lower than what I used to make at BigLaw but they pay my insurance, cell phone, and I have a Corporate Card to use for "business development" (basically means I can take my friends out and pick up the tab). The partners also make it a point to introduce me to their contacts.

The only downside I can think of is that I am one of only two associates that does bankruptcy here. This means that all the partners know exactly where I am and what I'm doing at all times. So dodging work is not an option.

12 - This is (5). Thanks for the advice. I am actually interested in "soft" IP law, but that area just recently got hit by the downturn. I'm pushing almost 1.5 years at this firm. Hopefully I'll get out and experience something new soon. I'm glad you're happy where you're at!

Elie got Lathamed!!!

Fuck that fat fuck. His ignorance and unethical "journalism" cost a lot of people their careers.

Let's be clear about one thing - firms like Pachulski act as local counsel to big firms on big cases. Not that it's not interesting work, but they do the nuts and bolts crap with the court, not the substantive motions/plan-drafting. I can understand why a clerk wouldn't necessarily see the difference, since the docs all have Pachulski's footer when they get filed. But make no mistake, being local counsel means being BigLaw's bitch when it comes to getting the administrative pieces handled.

We need many more bankruptcy attorneys to handle the personal bankruptcies of all the law students and recent law grads who are biting the dust faster than you can say "slap that monkey."

God, there's no interesting news lately. Anyone care to speculate about whom might be going to 190?

akin gump has seriously evil partners in its bankruptcy group -- give the whole bar a bad name

My first law job was working in a relatively small Bankruptcy Shop. They did a mix of individual debtor work (7's and 13's) and creditor work.

The work is largely mechanical and lends itself to "mill" type conditions, but once you become established it really can be a pretty lucrative practice. Here's why.

When congress changed the bankruptcy code in 200(3?) a lot of the old practioners of Bankruptcy work just got out of the business. Further, the transitiont to bankruptcy work being almost exclusively electronic has left a lot of old hats not really knowing how to deal with the new systems.

An attorney who is willing and able to take the more complicated Chapter 13's and small company Chapter 11's (construction contractors are always declaring bankruptcy because the operate on such a shoestring), you can have a pretty healthy practice.

Just make sure that you get paid up front, which is a staple of any debtor work

"My firm doesn’t provide ...legal malpractice insurance"

For realz? That sucks - do you pay it out of pocket? I don't even think it's legal not to have it in my jurisdiction, and you'd be nuts to go without it anyway.

For the record, what did Lat say on Twitter?

well. small firms (and solos) only comprise about two thirds of all working lawyers, so it makes sense that you should devote 1 thread in 100 to that segment of the profession....makes sense in the world of media journalism, anyway, I guess. Cuz all the rest of the media devotes about the same amount of attention to this segment....

17,

If you're talking about Chrysler or Circuit City or Lehman maybe. But there are many many other creditors and debtors that have neither the money nor the inclination to hire a Jones Day or a Weil to represent them in their bankruptcy, and even fairly sizable companies Chapter 11's may be "small potatos" for a Jones Day or a Weil because they can't stack attorneys on it without giving the client a coronary.

Lat, you stud. Great hack job you did on Wilmer. Shame that memo surfaced to reveal your little p.r. scam. Happened to me as well. Who would have expected that we would invade Iraq and my little weapons of mass destruction gig would be revealed and come to an end. How did you manage to keep your job? Lost mine. Let's get together to discuss, big boy. Call me.
Judith Miller,
Formerly of the New York Times

Lat, you stud. Great hack job you did on Wilmer. Shame that memo surfaced to reveal your little p.r. scam. Happened to me as well. Who would have expected that we would invade Iraq and my little weapons of mass destruction gig would be revealed and come to an end. How did you manage to keep your job? Lost mine. Let's get together to discuss, big boy. Call me.
Judith Miller,
Formerly of the New York Times

22 - Try following him:

http://twitter.com/davidlat

But I think he deleted the offending tweet (which was complaining about a colleague's grammatical mistakes).

The growth niche is personal bankruptcy for lawyers.

The one great thing about doing consumer bankruptcy work is the hours. The place I used to work at was basically a 9 to 6 job. Made about $60K, but in a mid-size city where my mortgage was only $1,200 a month. Most of the clients weren't trying to get out of credit card debt; they were poor people taken in by sub-prime lenders and bad car loans. I liked the work, and the bankruptcy bar here was wonderful.

I do recommend avoiding the "mill" type practices that won't file adversary proceedings (or defend them) and doesn't really practice law, but push paper.

Just admit it...everyone - including you if you don't already - wants to work in biglaw. Spare me the bullshit.

-Rotting in Small Law

30=likely credited. In college, I was some sort of bullshit assistant for some terrible law firm. My boss was a dumbass fat fuck TTTTer who practiced copy and paste law. His fucking arrogance was ridiculous and unbearable. His partners would take me out to the bars and rip the shit out of the 400 lb. scumbag. I went on to a t14 school, and am a biglaw 5th year, and have never had as bad an experience as with fatfuck mcgee. I hope he died of a heart attack because this fucker was a plague on the legal profession.

A word of warning from someone who has practiced bankruptcy law for most of my career and has either direct experience or first-hand accounts of several types of firms (very small firm, medium size boutique, AmLaw 20, and AmLaw 100-200). Bankruptcy is a high-stress area, whether consumer or corporate, because all of the players/clients are in a bad mood, and this transfers to the partners, who will often push it on to you. Whether debtor or creditor, people are either losing money or at risk of losing money. Even the clients who are "making money" are very aggressive lenders/financiers who are very demanding (at the corporate end, think Carl Icahn/Donald Trump, at the consumer end, think the Joe Pesci landlord character in the movie "The Super".)

Small time bankruptcy practitioners are similar to cockroaches. In urban areas, they advertise "doing" simple cases for $500.00 while violating 11 U.S.C. §§ 526-527. If I didn't have more important things to do, I would report these morally bankrupt cockroaches to the U.S. Dept. of Justice or the U.S. Trustee's Office for defiling this practice area. Most small time bankruptcy practitioners do not have malpractice insurance and usually compete with petition preparers that charge a fraction of attorney's fees. With real estate and small corporate areas of law drying up, it has given me great pleasure to see old attorneys try to learn this area of law in order to survive. Let the unwashed continue to suffer...

Anyone know about small business bankruptcy work for solos? Is that a good field for solos to specialize in or does most of that work go to larger firms, leaving solos to handle only the consumer cases? Thoughts? Thanks

Partner Emeritus, your citation is disgusting and indicative of the shitshow you call a "legal career." It's 526-27, not 526-527. You're a small-time phony who spends his life on this festering blog. Get a life you sicko law student virgin.

BREAKING NEWS: A photo of Elie from fat camp was just released to the public:

http://3.media.collegehumor.com/collegehumor/ch6/c/9/collegehumor.b71fb6acea76b13e695264e90e5d621c.jpg

This comment is addressed to post no. 35.

Thank you for the chuckle. Your parents must really be proud that you were able to correct a legal pioneer on a citation form. I am sure your life is replete with these types of "achievements." Perhaps if you spent less time focusing on pendantic matters your life would have some purpose or meaning. Somehow I doubt it.

@PE

The provisions of 11 U.S.C. §§ 526-527 were added to the bankruptcy code at the behest of the credit card lobby when BAPCPA was enacted in 2005. No one thought attorney advertising was a problem before that. The provision went through on the idea it was protecting consumers against criminals who prey on debtors. Google foreclosure scams if you want examples. In any event, no one in the bankruptcy bar, the UST or the Dept of Justice gives a shit about these foolish provisions, just as no one gives a shit that the pre- and post-filing credit counseling requirements are a joke. That's the problem with reform: it's only effective if there is a genuine need and the people expected to enforce the reform are on board with the idea.

Your assignment: find a way to spin that idea into a criticism of "Commissar Obama" and his economic policies.

So Lat hates Mystal now? I missed it. What happened?

34 again ---- Also, is there a practice area that is good to pair with bankruptcy practice? Something that would bring repeat business? I am planning on clerking for a bankruptcy judge then going solo after. Thanks for any advice

PE has achieved so much he feels the need to brag about it on abovethelaw.com anonymously. In fact, he just stated I focus too much upon " pedantic matters" whereas he is responding to my post that focuses on "pedantic matters." PE lacks the brain power of a capable villein. He certainly does not, nor did he ever, attend the likes of YHSC.

@38 - In order for PE to complete his assignment, he'll first need to understand your post and your request. Somehow I doubt his feeble mind is capable of that. Of course maybe he'll prove me wrong. The alternative is that he'll just ignore your post and my post the way he does any post that clearly calls out his BS.

This comment is addressed to post no. 38.

Be careful, commenter 35 will be correcting you very shortly on your poor citation form.

While I agree with your assessment of the impetus for sections 526-527, I disagree with you on the government's stance regarding the enforcement of these provisions. The Dept. of Justice has fought tooth and nail against the bankruptcy bench bar to have the "debt relief agency" designation stick to attorneys. I believe this issue may be on appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, which will ultimately rule against the bankruptcy bench bar. Bankruptcy attorneys are debt relief agencies pursuant to BAPCPA. Furthermore, the U.S. Trustees' office has to justify their generous budget every year. How do they accomplish this? By showing success in enforcing the foolish provisions that you state no one gives a "shit" about.

As for Commissar Obama, if he were truly a friend of the proletariat, he would move his politburo to repeal BAPCPA. If Commissar Obama were a friend of the middle class, he would have moved his politburo to enact a law that would give bankruptcy judges the authority to cramdown first mortgages on residential properties. The fact is, Commissar Obama failed to do these things. Now ask yourself, why did Commissar Obama side with the banking industry?

PE, wtf does "pendantic" mean you fucking loser?

thx 44, I didn't even notice that, what a fucking tool. This just proves he uses a thesaurus when he types comments.
-35,41

I rarely come to this site, but when I do and see PE, I have to rip this dipshit striver law student apart. His writing is terrible, and when he strays off into the political arena he clearly doesn't get the focus of this website. No associate in the world comes to this site and gives a shit about politics. Give me a fucking break.

@PE,

35 sucks. The “debt relief agency” provision is only going to the Supreme Court because a bankruptcy court in Georgia decided to sua sponte issue an immediate order the day the new provisions went into effect essentially declaring the statute unenforceable. The UST has to at least pretend they care. In normal rank and file bankruptcy cases, this is never an issue. I would expect with a combination of the bad economy and the general apathy toward the rules of the new bankruptcy code that many practitioners who had fled the field will return soon, along with a slew of unemployed law grads.

As to justifying its budget, the UST has very little to do with consumer cases. They use computers to run ratios of debtors’ debt to income, and occasionally request documents in cases where these ratios seem abnormal (e.g. a debtor with $30k in annual income and $250k in unsecured debt) but they rarely follow up on these inquiries unless there is evidence of fraud. They mostly rely on the trustees and individual creditors to enforce 727 actions. And both the Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 trustee programs are self-funded by a combination of the debtor’s filing fee and an administrative fee taken from the funds distributed to unsecured creditors. Chapter 11 debtors must pay a quarterly fee to the UST based on the size of the estate, though given that the UST is somewhat more involved in these cases, I assume these fees do not cover their expenses.

As to Obama vis-à-vis BAPCPA, practitioners of consumer bankruptcy would assure you that the revisions had little effect on actual consumer bankruptcy work. The so-called means test only affects roughly 2% of all filers, and only a quarter of those ultimately fail and are forced to dismiss or convert their case. I have represented several of those .5% of debtors that failed the test, and found them to be petulant, indulgent, and entirely worthy of their fate, and that is coming from someone with nothing but sympathy for debtors. American bankruptcy law is still the most generous in the world, and I’d rather see the government devote their energy to more substantial reform.

PE,
Whom do you support for president in 2012?

This comment is addressed to post no. 45.

I am no associate.

39, it looks like Lat deleted the FB status/tweet, which had him wondering if anyone knew of a remedial spelling or grammar class he could force a certain colleague to attend; and then expressing frustration with an apparent lack of interest in correcting mistakes (someone proposed docking his paycheck $5 for each carelessness). Now Lat is looking into an anger management class for himself. Before that, he wondered "why it's so hard for some (highly educated) people to tell the difference between 'it's' (the contraction) and 'its' (the possess[ive])."

Bankruptcy might be good now, but isn't the field slow during good times? What did bankruptcy lawyers do with themselves from 2002 through 2008?

30, I would rather make $50-60K/year in gov't than $150K+ selling my soul to Biglaw.

Just one man's opinion.

50,

You'd be very surprised.

Consumer bankruptcies are undoubtedly somewhat higher than normal right now, but they're not "that" high. There's always a substantial percentage of irresponsible people that will load themselves up on debt and discover they are unable to pay it off.

With corporations the cause is slightly different. During good times, people tend to be much bigger risk takers. More people go out and start companies, and many, if not most, corporations that fail, do so in the first couple years of their lives.

50, the short answer is that with a few notable exceptions, firms generally keep their bankruptcy departments relatively small to avoid having to do drastic cuts, etc. in the "good times"

Bankruptcy in the good times tend to dabble in distressted M&A, real estate, and commercial litigation.

Depends on what your focus was while in Bankruptcy.

I work in the bankruptcy department of a mid-size, multi-practice, single-office firm of about 120 attorneys in NYC. I am a second year, and currently the most junior member of the group. We generally represent creditors and creditors' committees, although we occasionally will Chapter 11 debtor cases. We never handle personal bankruptcies. We do not act as conflicts counsel very often.

The work has been very good here. I get a lot of substantive work, and opportunity to be involved with the cases at every level. I do some doc review, but generally I am drafting motions, complaints or position letters for adversary proceedings. I also have a lot of contact with clients and the committees we represent. What I enjoy about my firm is that I get to work on very sophisticated matters and bankruptcies, but without the BS and killer hours of a large firm. I also get paid pretty close to "market rate".

My only frustration is that since our department is not huge, we cannot handle more than a few cases at a time, so the partners literally will not pitch committees until they know for sure that our current representations are close to wrapping up. So I have no clue from month to month how busy we are actually going to be, and whether my job is secure for another two months.

155- How did you enter your position? Entry level?

I work in a 3 person bankruptcy boutique as a first year. The individual cases pay the bills, while I also do some more substantive work. It's not bad but I would like to handle more sophisticated work.

56 - 55, here.

I was fortunate enough to get my position through OCI, and I did my summer associate work at this firm. In the past few months, however, I have also been contacted by several other similarly sized firms looking to build up their bankruptcy practices, and have interviewed with these firms. If you can demonstrate that you have some good experience and an understanding of bankruptcy law already as a first year, I believe you would have a pretty good shot at landing one of these positions.

I am a former practicing bankruptcy attorney who now places commercial bankruptcy attorneys in law firms nationwide. So, my comments are from the perspective of both a former bankruptcy attorney and a recruiter. One idea for entry level candidates (law students or associates looking to transition into bankruptcy) is to work for a firm that represents Ch 7 Trustees (frequently, a bankruptcy partner in smaller and mid-sized firms is a Trustee and often retains his firm to represent him/her). You get basic, entry level experience in this position - you learn the Code and you see both the debtor and creditor sides. I've had partners request lateral candidates with this type of background/skill set.

Another idea for law students or unemployed associates looking to enter the bankruptcy field is the position of Trustee's Assistant. Most Chapter 7 Trustees have senior level paralegals who work as their assistants. Again, you will learn the bankruptcy process and become familiar with schedules, statement of financial affairs, procedure, basic forms, etc.

Finally, I just wanted to address a previous comment about the firms that do primarily conflicts counsel work. My comment is just a word of caution for associates looking to advance - there is less room for advancement at firms that do exclusively bankruptcy conflicts work. I've seen many associates reach a certain point at these firms and then have to find something else (especially when bankruptcy slows down - which it will eventually). However, if you are starting there to gain a few years of experience and then move to another firm, that's different - just have an exit strategy. And, always, always, always have a crossover practice area no matter what size firm -- real estate, commercial litigation, corporate finance, etc.

58, good stuff, thanks.

To #58 - What can one do to hone skills while working in bankruptcy to be sure they have skills which will allow them to crossover once times are good again? Thanks.

I run my own bankruptcy practice. I take everything from straightforward chapter 7 cases to chapter 11 cases for small to mid-sized businesses and highly leveraged individuals.
My practice is both interesting and profitable. I do anywhere from $10K to $20K per month, have almost no overhead, but I do have Westlaw, and I've been out of law school for less than three years. The biggest upside is being the captain of your own ship. I make all the decisions and I live with the consequences. I was a paralegal at a very large very well known DC firm, and I swore that I'd never go back. My choice was atypical for someone who went to a Tier 1 school and clerked for a federal judge, but the quality of my education and clerkship experience paved the way for my practice success.
That said, bankruptcy is highly technical. If you don't know all of the rules, you will commit malpractice eventually. You must also be prepared to litigate. Bankruptcy involves a lot of court time. The calendars are very fast, the judges are highly technical, and you have to be able to think on your feet.
If you want to break into the practice, I'd recommend either getting some job experience or doing one of the multi-day bankruptcy boot camps.
Finally, avoid the yellow pages. I advertise exclusively online. My costs are low and I am in the position to pick and choose my cases.

To the person who attempted to correct PE's citation form for 11 U.S.C. §§ 526-527 -- PE was right (this one time) and you were wrong. See Rule 3.3(b) of the Bluebook, on page 62 of the 18th edition.

To the person who asserts that "everyone" wants to work in Biglaw -- please explain Barack Obama, who as president of the Harvard Law Review could have had any Biglaw job he wanted but chose not to work in Biglaw. Or, more pertinent to this thread, please explain Isaac M. Pachulski, who received the Fay Diploma (class valedictorian) from Harvard Law School in 1974 and then immediately went to work for a bankruptcy boutique, Stutman Treister & Glatt, and is still there 35 years later. Or explain any random associate at the same firm. For example, the first attorney listed in alphabetical order on that firm's website graduated magna cum laude from Harvard in 2004 and received his J.D. from Harvard Law School in 2007. Do you think he wanted to work in Biglaw but couldn't find a Biglaw job, so he settled for working at Stutman?

58, following up on 60's comment, unless you are at a small firm doing lots of different things, it is very difficult to develop even competent skills in another practice area outside your primary area. BK lawyers are, first and foremost, litigation lawyers. When transactional stuff happens in reorg situations, they usually bring in the applicable transactional lawyers. In my experience, the BK lawyers aren't running M&A or real estate transactions.

Commercial lit I can see, but it is really difficult to cross over from litigation to transactional work at a firm of any size. You would need to have done it at a small firm/boutique first.

51 - then, obviously, you don't work for the gov't.

"akin gump has seriously evil partners in its bankruptcy group -- give the whole bar a bad name"

I think I could probably get an offer, coming out of a clerkship, at Akin and similar firms. I'd love it if you'd elaborate on Akin and any firm that occupies a similar position in the bankruptcy world (Paul Weiss, Milbank, Kramer Levin, Wilkie Farr, White & Case, etc.)

Boutiques in cities like LA tend to be big players in the larger local cases. That being said, LA large cases are dwarfed by east coast large cases (which is unfair because a disproportionate share of the Del. and SDNY cases are Cal. companies).

BK is great. We get complex issues in all areas of civil law, lit. and trx'l, and at the same time get to be specialists.

It's basically recession proof--even if it gets slow--that just means that the economy's improving and there are likely other business law opportunities and higher demand for lawyers generally.

To 60 & 63 re crossover practice areas - I mention the need for a crossover practice for several reasons: (1) I've had lateral associate candidates interview at regional firms in the past 3 months and they were asked about their crossover practice - where could they fit in when bankruptcy work slowed down; (2) a crossover practice is critical for bankruptcy partners outside of NY and DE - the partners I know who maintained a book of $1.5+ million in 2007 were ones who had significant non-bankruptcy work/clients - many bankruptcy partners had their worst years in 2007 because they were dependent on bankruptcy work.

Regarding which crossover practice to choose, I agree with 63 ... commercial litigation is absolutely the best choice. I've seen attorneys have great success by picking a niche litigation practice - oil/gas litigation or condominium litigation, for example.

However, I've also seen associates with a real estate crossover practice. Many prominent boutique firms specialize in both bankruptcy and real estate so that one practice area is always hot. So, a bankruptcy associate at such a firm might have just enough real estate experience (does not have to rise to expert status) to sell his/her real estate experience in a good market.

67 -
I get what you are saying, and I'm not arguing with the value of having another skill set. But most associates that practice at larger firms or specialized boutiques just won't have much experience in other areas. That ignores the reality of big firms/boutiques.

Smaller firms and more generalized boutiques, that's a different story. You can develop at least marketable skills in a few different areas in those environments.