I've heard that the ship be sinking. Is this correct? Can anyone confirm?

Thanks.

QUINN SECURE

ELIE IS BACK!

yeah 3 securely anchored to your blackberry.

No way this is Elie. It's just Lat masquerading as Elie. Notice the tone and the lack of spelling and grammar errors.

"complete disregard for their reputation in the legal community"

if this is becoming common place, how does it damage a firm's reputation?

i missed a couple of days - can somone fill me in on the lat v elie thing? please

LAWSUITS RISE

EDITORS FALL

ELIE REMAINS (for now)

Layoffs in 45 days? That should make for a Merry Christmas!

I feel like I've gone to a funeral and the deceased crawled out of the casket and started talking to the funeral guests. Welcome back Elie.

Damn. I was getting excited about an Elie-free ATL.

HI ELIE!

Yay! Elie is back! We missed you Elie

Looks like Elie was just in time out.

BACON

No...go away. No one missed you.

glad you're back. although i may not always agree with what you type, you are the best thing this site has going for it.

Mr. My Worm has a very interesting name. Kinda like Sir Denis Eton-Hogg of Polymer Records.

Hey! I received the Squire Sanders statement and that last sentence was not in the original.

WELCOME BACK ELIE!!!!

Don't worry about the haters.

3 - You better CHECK YOU EMAILS!

Welcome back Elie. Lat must have given you yet another chance. Don't fuck it up this time.

Question: is this the Future Elie or the regular Ellie?

Commenter #10 nailed it - Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas, SSD Associates! Aren't you glad you put a "numbers guy" in charge? (Query whether laid off associates will still attend the firm's holiday parties...)
Considering Crain's Cleveland had TWO articles recently featuring SSD partners talking about how hard it is to get business, this should come as no surprise to anyone at the firm or in Cleveland.

Elie:

How are you feeling after your moob reduction surgery?

How is the scarring? Do you still feel beautiful?

Thank God Almighty! Elie's back!!!

Yesterday: how I learned to stop worrying and love the MysTTTal.

Welcome to the jungle. It ain't pretty.

lol "further timekeeper reductions" ?? If that doesn't show associates that they are just human billing units, then nothing will.

Mission Accomplished!

Before becoming a lawyer I was an engineering manager. While some may disagree, general consensus in my former company (and others I spoke with) was layoffs are much better before Christmas than after. Since the Holiday season is a big spending time for people, it is far more offensive to lay someone off just after they add more debt on gifts/vacations/whatever they spend money on at the end of the year.

Elie,

I'm almost certain that this was written for you:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125132002307361669.html

Now go away again.

The ship be sinking...

30 - i thought firms always called billing associates timekeepers

Score! Elie has come back, return of the jedi style... or is it return of the king?

FIRSTY McFIRSTERSON (or here, thirty sixthy mcthirty sixerson) feels for all you deferred indefinitely...there's nothing worse....

Welcome back Elie. Mistakes are mistakes. Most don't really care. What we do care about is lightening up our days with a good laugh. It's rough out here.

So, do your thing. Personally, I don't care about the typos. It's not like you're filing a legal brief.

WHY DIDN'T THEY RE-DEFER/REVOKE 2 MONTHS AGO? WHAT THE FUCK CHANGED SINCE THEN?

Don't lose focus. young attorneys. Keep the loans on a 10-year payback cycle, scrape by however you can, and the world will be your oyster once you are debt free. You can take a lower paying job, or a non-law job altogether and just write off the whole law school thing as an expensive mistake. Just keep your eye on the ball.

Who are the peer firms for this firm?

Elie is the Matt Millen of bloggers.

1, OMG, Soda Popinski. Camp brilliance.

I think 32 is right. Pre-holiday layoffs while horrid are better. Now that folks have been told their jobs are on the line, wouldn't it be better to get the pain of uncertainty over with, and then either enjoy happy holidays safe and secure for a few months, or just get the hell out of there if terminated and take a few weeks, enjoy your holiday and get some perspective about the important things in life.

Elie, ignore the haters. It's great to have you back.

Also, good luck to any deferred/laid-off SSD folks.

WELCOME BACK ELIE!!! WE MISSED YOU (TYPOS AND ALL).

This is damn great news. More layoffs, more deferals, more up the ass for young law grads and young associates. You suckers picked the wrong time to invest so much time and money in what you thought would get you the brass ring. Well, it got you nothing but a dick up the ass. Enjoy.

Who is the next firm to re-defer? I'm taking odds for the next hour.

I don’t understand what took them so long to decide they have no need for (half of the) incoming associates. Why couldn’t they have let the poor souls know in August or September? January is now only a couple of months away. Deferred associates should know whether they are going to start.

If there are any other firms out there waiting to make this decision, I urge you, on behalf of all deferred associates with mythical start dates, to let us know NOW.

Comment removed by moderator.

47, no sector is doing great right now. Best thing for recent grads to do is to bunker down and find some means of paying the loans down in 10 years. Even if it means living in a rural area with a low cost of living. Just get out of debt. And if you can learn a skill while doing it, (family law, estate planning, bankruptcy, insurance defense...anything but Biglaw associate work) all the better.

As to the "getting the Bird" line: that linked story is actually riddled with errors and inaccuracies. Not that ATL would bother to fix those sorts of things.

Lat made Elie give him a rusty trombone followed by a Turkish breakfast in order to keep his job.

Damming, FU 50.
I need to stop clicking on image links while at work.

We're happy that Elie is back? What a fickle crowd this is.

Warning: Troll bait.

Let's see those 50 time keeping units about to be terminated (oh did I say 25? I meant 50. so sorry) are clearly being terminated for economic reasons, right?

yet they are bringing on a new 25 TKUs. Those 50 terminated TKUs did not measure up for some reason. Maybe they smell funny. Maybe they had a miscarriage and are likely to try again, maybe they didn't cover their mouth when hacking up swine flu. In the universe of SSD associates, they picked you for execution. Watch Schindler's list. kind of random, but not entirely random.

If you are axed by this shithole, count your blessings. You still suck, at least you don't suck in Cleveland anymore. Now FO and leave law for the survivors.

None of these firms get it - they need to lower billing rates.

35, yes, attorneys and paralegals are called timekeepers. This phrasing is a lovely way of ensuring that ALL timekeepers - not just associates, but paralegals and counsel as well - will be freaked out by this message. Here's my advice: don't answer your phones, people... Better yet, why not use those 4 weeks (plus rollover) of vacation now and head for the hills? It isn't like you're going to make your billables requirement anyway, right? After all, they can't fire you if they can't find you.
Also, I would like to commend SSD for pre-emptively throwing their soon-to-be-terminated TIMEKEEPERS under the bus as performance-based layoffs. Nothing says "class" like firing them at the holidays* AND making it known to potential employers that it was because they weren't good enough (which should pretty well ensure they won't get hired anywhere else, ever), as opposed to coming clean and admitting that the firm is doing this because of the economy (i.e. their "rain makers" can't even make it sprinkle). Nice. REALLY nice.

*The point is well taken, though, that it is better to be laid off before you spend a lot at Christmas, though I sincerely doubt anyone in their right minds in any big law firm is going gangbusters on gifts this year, anyway. Of course, this assumes anyone in a big law firm is, indeed, in their right mind to begin with.

SSD can not spell Cincinnati. My guess is their clients in Cincinnati will not be happy to be called "Cincinatti"

http://www.ssd.com/summerassociates/

Is there any firm worse than SSD in this legal downturn? This is the 4th or 5th round of layoffs, all without severance, and less than three months notice to those affected. They didn't give offers to any summers and they already cancelled next year's class altogether. Now they are indefinitely deferring half of the incoming first years.

ATL had a contest a while back for safest firm to work at. It should also have a contest for crappiest form to work for.

welcome back Elie

60 - Thelen and Heller would be worse. Other than that, maybe not.
But associates in the last round (April) did get 90 days notice and pay. Not exactly 3 calendar months but close to it.

What was SSD's offer rate for 2009 summers? Start date for those folks?

35 and 58,
I was planning to go gangbusters on Christmas gifts for my young children this year. But then I realized how selfish that is.

Somewhere, there is an 87 year old who needs a hearing aid; a 105 year old wants Lasik surgery; and a 93 year old would like hair implants. I plan to send extra money to medicare and the Social Security trust fund. That's right, I'm sending money above and beyond the 7.5% that comes out of my pay checks.

I have my priorities right. Old people are the future.

Last week, Foley and Lardner's Chicago office extended its deferral period for several practice areas. Yet, it moved up incoming litigators.

At what point can incoming associates scheduled to start in January feel (relatively) secure that they will actually start? I would have thought that by November firms would have made the hard decisions. Are firms going to re-defer a January 15 start date on January 1?

Welcome back, Elie.

A lot of us were afraid you left.

Don't listen to the haters.

Should anyone really be surprised that working for a Cleveland-based firm is not such a great gig?

SSD is dying. Gone by 12/31.

Foley & Lardner has deferred many of its incoming associates past their initial February 2010 estimate. A handful of people (mostly litigators) will start before or around then.

Is there a cause for promissory estoppel? I think not!!
Hahahahaha

Is there a cause for promissory estoppel? I think not!!
Hahahahaha

Is there a cause for promissory estoppel? I think not!!
Hahahahaha

Is there a cause for promissory estoppel? I think not!!
Hahahahaha

Is there a cause for promissory estoppel? I think not!!
Hahahahaha

64 - 58 here.
The point of my comment is that no one is secure in this market. Are you really that dense?

Is there a cause for promissory estoppel? I think not!!
Hahahahaha

Is there a cause for promissory estoppel? I think not!!
Hahahahaha

Would it be asking too much for ATL to tone down the hypocrisy a little? First, it tells the firms "disclose" "sunlight is the best disinfectant."

Then, when a firm DOES actually disclose (making it possible for people with exit opportunities to take them before getting a scarlet "L" -for Laid Off) it gets pejorative commentary from the blog.

The firms aren't stupid. If they can avoid negative ATL press, they will - most likely. Why make it difficult for them to follow the rules that ATL has set forth? It's just immensely hypocritical. And counter productive.

If ATL is committed to hypocrisy, then perhaps it could dump the holier-than-thou attitude. NY Daily News for Lawyers.

66- I have the same question. In the next few months I am supposed to sell my house (at a loss), have my spouse quit a job, pull my kid out of school, move across the country, and rent a very expensive apartment. Am I going to hear that there is no job as I unload the moving van?

Nigel Tufnel, you really should have posted "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland........Fu*k!"

I second 80.

People are moving, quitting jobs, selling homes, signing leases, and generally make a huge commitment to start with these firms.

We don't deserve to start, but we do deserve to know before we move across the county whether our job will be there when we get there.

79 = SSD managing partner

80, 82:

Sounds like a section 90 claim---no joke!

Best of luck to all of the re-deferred incoming associates.

to all:

this is just the beginnning with many firms to follow.

i believe that ssd came out first with salaries as well (not that its a great thing or anything) so kudos for them because soon they will be considered to have done this early - which can enable deffered to pursue opportunities if they exist.

Another firm (small-mid size) - just fired all their document service dept., and cancelling all parties, halloween and x-mas~

60 - No, cause Latham would sweep.

Not only is there a valid promissory estoppel claim, but those indefinitely deferred might have an intentional infliction of emotional distress claim if they can prove severe emotional distress as a result of Squire Saunders' game-playing with their careers.

60- Proskauer will be one of the next to follow SSDs lead. They are hurting.

A guy in my 3L class last year told a bunch of us that we were making a huge mistake heading to V10 firms in NYC after graduation because the financial crisis had destroyed all those firms' businesses. We would be better off if we were doing what he did: sign on with SSD in Cleveland. (My whole summer class started on time at full salary more than a month ago.)

64 -

Right on. Don't forget perscription drug coverage for their penis pills. You think current old people are bad wait until those retiring baby boomers start breaking down. They will absolutely suck us dry over the next 20 years. The "Me Generation" only knows how to think about themselves. They lived the good life and spent more then they had their whole lives, maybe they can show some restraint and sacrafice in their sunset years so that the following generations can have a shot at prosperity. I won't hold my breathe though.

I just can't take it anymore

76,
There are many people secure in this market. They post here all the time. Be careful or the secure gentleman from the United States Department of Justice may bomb you back to the Stone Age.

To the ATL editors:

I have an idea that can help both ATL’s bottom line and incoming associates. Look into the firms with January start dates – see lawfirmchaos.blogspot.com – and reach out to them asking for confirmation that incoming associates will actually start when scheduled. Create a thread with the results and I assure you ATL will get a record number of page views.

Someone needs to force the firms’ hand already. We are not entitled to start, but we are entitled to some degree of certainty this close to our supposed start date.

SSD management's short-sightedness is the reason they are in so much trouble. Their rain makers are getting old and crusty and they have treated associates like crap for so long that I, like many of my talented former colleagues, have moved firms prior to making partner. Their younger partnership ranks blow with respect to business generation. The more senior partners pretty much care about their pocket books only, not their legacy or survival of the firm. My former colleagues who are still associates at Squire are ALL looking to leave. They are reporting that pretty much every associate at the firm is looking to get out before the firm comes crumbling down. Merry Christmas.

One Who Knows: Folks, you best get right with the idea that most firms are getting ready to retrench for the long haul. Anyone with a brain in their head knows that huge deficits, higher taxes, inflation, and higher interest rates means much slower growth in the years to come. Obama and his troops are dead on a course of action that spells doom for growth. Slow growth or no growth or recession means less legal work, which means you guys are getting ready to have a huge dick stuck up your ass for a number of years. Even if you have a job right now, there is no reasonable expectation that you will have it two years from now. The bloodshed of the past year was just a warm-up for what's coming. Get ready, assume the position, and spread those cheeks.

80 and 82. How many new lawyers have houses to sell? Ever think that it was a bad idea to uproot your whole family and force your spouse to quit a job just so you could go be a grunt somewhere? If you all really want to be real lawyer, go join a local firm, make little money, but learn to do something. BigLaw has nothying going for it but the money and screwing your family for the cash will never be worth it.

80 and 82. How many new lawyers have houses to sell? Ever think that it was a bad idea to uproot your whole family and force your spouse to quit a job just so you could go be a grunt somewhere? If you all really want to be real lawyer, go join a local firm, make little money, but learn to do something. BigLaw has nothying going for it but the money and screwing your family for the cash will never be worth it.

Most law firms have an unsustainable business model. It's difficult to justify spending $120k for an unexperienced lawyer unless you're sure s/he can bring in work, which most can't.

I'm sorry to say, but most law students are going to have to settle for smaller salaries and worse hours.

Welcome to reality.

100, it is difficult to pay "unexperienced" people. By the way, do you have a job?

98 & 99: Good advice for current law students. But at the time those of us who are now deferred got our offers, the legal market had not fallen apart and was still decent -- remember, we said yes to our summer jobs in the fall of 07. When the legal industry began its long fall, it was too late for us. At that point there were few jobs to be had, we were past hiring season... and by the time we were 3Ls, when small firms would normally hire, many were not anymore.

So while advice will help a 2L, it is not helpful to someone who has already graduated. Are you saying when things looked good, we should have known better and ignored OCI? Please. Most of you went (or at least tried) for the big jobs too.

99 -- I think about this all the time now. It seemed like an okay idea two years ago when I was interviewing. Now I am not so sure, but it is hard to change the plan, especially when I can only assume that the offer is good and the salary remains high.

Also, lots of my classmates had houses and condos. Especially the ones who had a few years of work prior to school.

66, 80, 82 et al.

I too am very interested in when I should feel safe about signing a lease (3x my current one) and moving my wife and kid across the country.

ATL editors please get some sort of thread started with this, publicize the firms who offer some assurance. Please, this would be a very useful service and would hearken back to the days when ATL was a very effective tool for current and incoming Associates.

SSD is only doing what's prudent given that the Dow has fallen below 10,000 today, signaling the end of the 6 month bear market rally.

Publicize the firms who offers some assurance? Are you joking? They've all offered many assurances many times. The sad truth is they've been as wrong about the economy as (almost) everyone else at every step and they don't have any better idea than you do about whether they'll ever get back to busy and back to billing. It's a bummer. Sorry.

106 - I agree, to an extent. But this is not about projecting where the economy is going anymore. This is about assessing CURRENT needs. If a firm doesn't have work to bring in new associates in January, then REVOKE OUR FUCKING OFFERS NOW.

I was in Cleveland recently on a biz trip. I was told the economy was horrible there and didn't realize the full extent of it until I went to the airport for my return flight and the huge underground moving walkway connecting terminals was completely empty, but for me..

I like the idea of highlighting firms which have given reassurances, but (1) what good would it really do and (2) there is zero likelihood that one ounce of honesty would come out of the exercise.

(1) It's too late for anyone to change what firms they go to. The only people who might actually USE the information are current 1Ls, and their time is too far in the future for any info now to be of any value.

(2) Every firm would send out a statement stating their commitment to their employees while they are "continually reassessing in light of developing conditions" and so much Obama-esque weasel language that, at the end of the statement, absolutely nothing of substance will have been said. Firms are not likely to risk any suits by committing at all.

It sucks for those of us who are deferred. I don't think there's any way around it. Life is uncertain. Make your plans and spend your money accordingly.

49/66 - what is the difference if you start on time when you can be terminated at any point anyway...please stop sniveling you pathetic whiner.

107 - welcome to the real world...kind of imperfect isn't it?

109 is absolutely correct.

110- the difference is that if you are going to be terminated anyway you don't blow a couple grand moving and uprooting your family.

SSD sucks. Bad lawyers, bad management-just all around bad.

Guys at my high school used to have their offers deferred all the time. It left them frustrated, but it was no big deal.

I'm still wondering when these money-hungry equity partners are going to stop the cuts just so they can save their over-inflated PPP?

From an in-house point of view, our billing rates are not going down, so we are forced to either increase in-house attorneys or simply reduce the amount of work sent to outside firms. However, we see these cuts taking place and still no reduction in billing rates. While I understand that my company alone cannot support an entire department (and I also understand that many companies are reducing budgets for outside counsel) - but at what point are the partners going to take the big leap and reduce billing rates even though they may take a cut in PPP instead of putting good attorneys out of work? Are partners that far removed from remembering what it was like to be an associate?

116 nailed it. SSD has cut salaries and cut associates but hasn't cut its rates, at least upfront. It may negotiate out lower rates per client but it hasn't cut them. It simply can't justify those rates anymore.

You've been up all night trying to figure out what to do with your life!?! Your an associate with your entire life ahead of you! How about being 50 and laid off after a market crash that cost you your job, your savings, your house with no job in sight.

At least your only trying to figure out what to do with your life and not trying to figure out how to keep food on your table.

Frankly, I believe it is better to be cut now while a reasonable severance is still available. They are currently giving 3 months, and this will likely fall at some point in the future (Foley has already reduced theirs from 3 to 2).