The Asia Chronicles: Kinney Asia Teamwork / Two Special M&A Opportunities (HK and SHG)
[Ed. note: This post is authored by Evan Jowers and Robert Kinney of Kinney Recruiting, sponsor of the Asia Chronicles. Kinney has made more placements of U.S. associates and partners in Asia than any other firm in the past two years. You can reach them by email: asia at kinneyrecruiting dot com.]
Evan here, writing from Hong Kong. The past week has been very busy, thus it has taken a couple of weeks to put up another post.
The number of US associate openings continues to increase in Asia, especially in Hong Kong and Greater China, and especially in now-busy capital markets groups. Two particularly special and urgent openings are for M&A 4th to 7th year associates for Shanghai and Hong Kong. The Shanghai opening, a private equity-focused position, does not require Mandarin fluency, but the Hong Kong opening, a more general M&A spot, does. I consider these openings very special opportunities for a number of reasons, including firm, supervising partner, and the realistic partnership track available in both of them. I am not going to go into great detail here, but suffice to say that I believe these are A+ positions and arguably among the best private equity/M&A spots in all of Asia. They are both extremely selective openings, will be filled soon, and the new hires will likely come from a top 10 US firm, most likely from NYC. We know both supervising partners very well and of course we are happy to fill you in on the details. I am cutting this Asia trip shorter than planned for some business in NYC next week, so can also meet in person with qualified and interested persons.
Last week, we made another placement of a US associate in Hong Kong (continuing a nice placement run of the last few months in Hong Kong and Greater China) and moved very close to placements (offers in hand) of a US partner, a US counsel and two more US associates in Hong Kong. Those successes were all expected, as they have been in the works for some time.
Robert and I spent most of last week together in Hong Kong meeting with partner-level candidates and clients. Many of these meetings were set up by our US and Asia-based recruiting back office. This week the focus is more on associate and firm client meetings, something our HK based recruiter, Alexis Lamb, does on a weekly basis here. It is truly a team effort of our Asia group that allows us to have the privilege of representing so many very impressive senior attorneys, and remarkable people, in Asia. The meetings happen from three sources: a) already established personal relationships (past career consulting or recruiting for partner’s firm); b) referrals; and c) our impressive back office team of recruiters based in the US and Asia.
***More after the jump.
Which brings me to the central point of the title of this post: you need teamwork to be effective in any market, but especially in working transcontinental markets. Our teamwork is proving very effective. To be sure, our willingness and ability to travel far and wide when necessary helps me to be a very effective recruiter and agent for US associates in Asia. By traveling I am able to meet with and relate to the dozens of US associates I may be advising at any given time on a near, medium or long-term prospective move to Asia. But it’s also critical for our success that we have our Asia-based team. When Robert or I or another member of our US-based team can’t be in Hong Kong or some other place in Asia, others such as Alexis often can. But having a large part of our focus be on Asia from the US also assists us because decisions that affect firms in Asia come both from US-based and Asia-based management. Among many other things, we have to be aware of a firm’s global strengths and focus, its commitment to Asia expansion, the partnership’s views of Asia-related investment even apart from management’s views (which two views can differ from each other a lot), and the synergy between a particular partner candidate with a firm globally, not just locally.
Robert and I are also involved in helping US firms not yet on the ground in Asia develop the right strategy for doing so effectively, even though late in the game. This type of consulting and recruiting work obviously is done in large part from the US, due to relations needed with such firm clients.
One small recent example of how our Asia strategy can work to the advantage of candidates and clients: Last week, Robert and I happened to meet with a US firm’s head partner for Asia in Hong Kong, in itself of course not a big deal, as we have such meetings frequently. As expected we discussed associate and partner needs. There was one particularly urgent but also unique and hard-to-fill partner need. As it turns out, our next stop after that meeting was to have lunch with an impressive US partner with whom one member of our US-based recruiting team had been trying to arrange an informational meeting for months. This person is not at all looking to move but agreed to meet Robert and me to discuss the market and his career in general. But he turned out to be a perfect fit for the position just described to us at the previous meeting. What started as an informational meeting turned out to be an interview process within just a few hours. Robert knows the firm’s US management very well and has made partner placements there. Both Robert and I know the firm’s key partners in Asia well and I am very familiar with the relevant practice area in Asia. Our teammates in the US helped us make the match.
Whether the placement happens or not, we were able to deliver a potentially career changing and significantly enhancing opportunity to an impressive senior attorney we just met only because our colleagues had been helping along the way for several months. Further, we may have provided the candidate to fill an urgent new partner need for one of our firm clients in Hong Kong less than an hour after being told about the need.
It is 9.30pm in Hong Kong now and I have to get on the phone with my colleague, Yuliya, who just arrived back in Russia (she splits time between US and Russia). She was just referred a very impressive counsel level project finance / energy attorney from Moscow who has an urgent need to move to Shanghai. Afterwards, I have two calls scheduled with New York-based associates who are moving to Hong Kong, one of whose spouses I placed a couple of weeks ago in Hong Kong. At 8am, Alexis and I have a breakfast scheduled with a hiring partner of an important firm client, followed by a number of associate and law firm client meetings, through late dinner and drinks, then more client calls to US….a typical 24 hours on these trips… Robert just arrived back in the US yesterday and he is working with US side firm client management on three different partner placements, two that will be Asia-based (including the one in example described above).
As always, write us with your questions to asia@kinneyrecruiting.com. We can’t work with everyone formally, but we try to help as many people as we can in whatever ways we can.
(122) Comments
Comments
first!
Do you guys also move associates from Asia to US?
Since most readers of ATL are associates, I suggest you stick more to writing about associate hiring in Asia. How is your partner work relevant to ATL readers? Is it just to show off?
Evan, are you going to visit Tokyo on this trip?
The Shanghai private equity position he mentions is at Hogan and Hartson, if anyone wants to apply directly I'm sure they'd appreciate saving the recruiter fee.
5, it is a different position. Surely, there is not only one mid-level PE downstream opening in all of SHG. All my candidates have the option of applying to firms on their own after I give them the information. Virtually all choose to go through me (for numerous reasons, as it greatly helps their candidacy and chances of landing at the right fit spot for them), but they have the choice. Firms are happy to pay recruiting fees for great service (marketing their stregnths to the best candidates possible for various positions and helping them fix recruiting problems). There is also the important business relationship of being able to recruit partners for firm clients, when need be. At the end of the day the fees are a bargain, as long as the best candidates possible on the market are being provided (only lower tier firms will hire a lesser candidate based on a recruiting fee). In a hot market though a lot of recruiters get fees for simply emailing around resumes, due to candidate shortages (things have dried out dramatically for those recruiters in '08 and '09, while the top end of the market has continued to thrive). When the lateral market is in a down cycle, the resume emailers don't have very eager law firm clients unless they figure out how to send the best candidates in the market (but those persons are usually careful about such a move and have put months of thought into it, in many cases in Asia those persons, if coming from US, have been talking to me for months, or even more than a year, before starting a job search. Many of those already in Asia already have a go to recruiter or are refered to one, such as myself or a handful of other good recruiters in the market). In other words, the cold callers suffer tremendously in such a market.
5, it is a different position. Surely, there is not only one mid-level PE downstream opening in all of SHG. All my candidates have the option of applying to firms on their own after I give them the information. Virtually all choose to go through me (for numerous reasons, as it greatly helps their candidacy and chances of landing at the right fit spot for them), but they have the choice. Firms are happy to pay recruiting fees for great service (marketing their stregnths to the best candidates possible for various positions and helping them fix recruiting problems). There is also the important business relationship of being able to recruit partners for firm clients, when need be. At the end of the day the fees are a bargain, as long as the best candidates possible on the market are being provided (only lower tier firms will hire a lesser candidate based on a recruiting fee). In a hot market though a lot of recruiters get fees for simply emailing around resumes, due to candidate shortages (things have dried out dramatically for those recruiters in '08 and '09, while the top end of the market has continued to thrive). When the lateral market is in a down cycle, the resume emailers don't have very eager law firm clients unless they figure out how to send the best candidates in the market (but those persons are usually careful about such a move and have put months of thought into it, in many cases in Asia those persons, if coming from US, have been talking to me for months, or even more than a year, before starting a job search. Many of those already in Asia already have a go to recruiter or are refered to one, such as myself or a handful of other good recruiters in the market). In other words, the cold callers suffer tremendously in such a market.
4, I am going to be in Tokyo, but for only during the day Saturday (just two meetings with partner candidate clients, an in and out day on way to NYC).
2, Yes.
5, I should add that the person who will fill the SHG spot I refer to is going to be likely the so impressive that he / she can go wherever they want and don't need a recruiter to make it happen. But I am more like an agent and help such persons make the best choice for them, considering the right timing for a move to Asia (this spot will likely be filled by person coming from US) and choosing between multiple offers / opportunities. This is the interesting and fun part of what I do. If it were just about emailing resumes around, I would have only lasted a few months as a recruiter, no matter how lucrative it may be (too boring and no service provided).
Guess the Shanghai PE spot is for Kirkland. They are opening in Shanghai soon.
Evan, were you an attorney at one time? Just wondering since lots of recruiters were attorneys that made a switch.
11, K&E opens in November in SHG, but that is not what I was refering to either. But if you go down the list of firms in SHG that have PE groups, you wll eventually hit, so I will just stop replying to these guesses. I can go over all the details of the spot I am refering to for anyone that emails me at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com and who I think is qualified. It is a very challenging position with a lot of responsibility and the firm involved is being understandably very selective. There are frankly not many out there that can fill the role and the firm can handle need with an internal transfer from another asia office if need be.
12, I received a JD from Boston U., was an associate at Cadwalader in NYC and also was in-house at a manufactoring company. Moved into recruiting pretty early in legal career, so not much attorney experience.
11, in most cases when a firm opens a new office in mainland, they recruit for initial team for such office months in advance, usually 6 + months. Thus there is a decent amount of recruting going on for mainland offices that will be opening well into '10.
Evan,
You must be getting a lot of e-mail inquiries everyday, how do you choose which ones to respond to?
11, that would be a great PE group to land in though, no doubt.
16, I do and would like to respond to all comers but sometimes not possible. Of course, have to prioritize the ones from law firm and in-house clients, current and past attorney candidate clients, and prospective attorney candidate clients that I feel are very placeable now or in the next year or so in Asia. Those I get back to same day if possible. There are many others I respond to, but unfortunately miss some.
Evan, you and Robert make the hottest gay couple, ever!
Twentieth!!!
JOWERS
Someone had mentioned in the comment a few weeks ago that Harrison Barnes of BCG had sued Robert Kinney, and that Kinney was in turn suing Barnes for defamation. The link for the Barnes complaint was posted. Does anyone have a link to Kinney's action filed against Barnes?
22 - http://tinyurl.com/2w4apm
http://www.jdjournal.com/wp-content/BarnesvKinney_FAC.pdf
22 - I'm sure Evan can get you a copy.
I know neither Robert or Evan will respond to this nonsense so I will. That law suit from Barnes is a complete joke and has no legs to stand on. I know Robert well and he is certainly not losing sleep over it. He sued Barnes for defamation in TX for reprinting knowingly false allegations in his law suit on Barnes' own website (Barnes owns JD Journal). However, Robert surely can't start publishing his filing in TX when he is suing Barnes for doing same (although Robert's claim does not have false information). It is public record in Travis County in TX. Call the clerk of court there...
Here is one of the countless rip off reports on Barnes, just as an example:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/Employment-Services/A-Harrison-Barnes-La/a-harrison-barnes-lawcrossin-c8d44.htm
Kinney's competitors on these AC comment boards must be desperate to get some of Kinney's market share in Asia. Trying to do so by slamming them and bringing up a silly lawsuit against Robert in their own AC series' comments is very naive but typical in the mostly scummy and dumb as a rock recruiting industry. Not surprised. If they have not turned off the comments or removed the negative ones, that shows you how concerned Kinney must be.
I wish Kinney would turn off the comments. They serve no purpose.
That Barnes guy seems like a real piece of work. He is his own biggest fan. Seems like a smug asshole. Evan seems to be pleased with himself too, no doubt, but not in a super- douchey way.
You should turn off these comments. Your "supporters" - 26, 27 - are making you look bad. Shouldn't supporters talk about your good work in Asia and elsewhere?
agree with 30. In reality, most of the comments lately are other recruiters trying to make Kinney look bad.
31, I bet its the lateral link kids
thanks Evan. good post.
I have spoken with Evan a few times about the China markets. Even if he does not represent you in a job search there, he is a great resource if you can get him on the phone. Just be persistent. He is not easy to reach.
Are you in BJ for the celebration?
if evan places partners now then how does he have time for associates?
I doubt it is lateral link. They have no reason for low blows.
Only people who feel threatened, like Kinney, need to bash other recruiters. Just do your own job and do not worry about what other people are doing.
How are junior associates w/ US credentials compensated at local firms in Shanghai, HK or Taipei? or do they not hire US associates?
37, I am a recruiter in Asia, not from Kinney. Kinney allows themselves to get bashed by keeping comments open here. They don't seem worried and why should they? They have a lot of respect in the market out here.
As for lateral link, their Asia recruiter came over from Cypress, after having no Asia placements while there (in a hot market), or ever before, and I heard from someone at Cypress stole a bunch of confidential data on Asia firms from Cypress' founder while she was tending to her sick parent, provided this data to Lateral Link, and basically started working for LL while still at Cypress. Cypress sued this recruiter and there was an injunction from him even being able to work in Asia when he came on board LL.
LL used to allow comments, but stopped because getting bashed (every article on ATL, especially sponsored ones, gets bashed). I don't think Kinney cares about what lateral link is doing? Why should they? Their competition in Asia comes mainly from the Asia based recruiters.
Evan, are firms in China hiring fund formation associates?
40, a few funds groups are interviewing mid-levels.
40, a few funds groups are interviewing mid-levels.
38, local firms in those markets do hire US associates and the compensation can vary wildly, but it much less than US associate pay in US firms or US practices of UK firms. On the other hand, depending on the firm and your language skills, you can have much quicker and more realistic path to partnership at the local firms.
how did this barnes character and lateralinked get roped into this blog?
lets keep it to asia and whats going on in asia.
although, i must admit, its pretty funny.
and, what about evan and robert. who is running the show here?
either way, just as a matter of editorial style, i think evan lacks credibility as an recruiting authority, not because of this lawsuit, or others trashing him on this blog, but because of all the self promotion. it gets old and people read right through it, like a high school quarterback, al bundy, if you will, talking about his hs td pass record in 76, while sitting on the lazy boy watching the price is right during the day.
a ferrari does not need to talk about its quality. you know what it you are getting. just like wachtel or cravath. its a brand created by what others have to say based on a track record and experience.
when you say it yourself, it just does not come off factual.
give me some testies, man, i want to hear what others have to say, who are real people working with you on all these placements you say you have made.
and, to continue this diary, who is this russian contact you speak of?
44 = another recruiter trying to tear down Evan.
I guess NY Times, American Lawyer, Wall St. Journal, Law Dragon, Asian Counsel, South China Post, LA Times (all publications that have featured Evan in articles about attorney recruiting in Asia) and other third parties are not as astute as you are re who is the US associate leading recruiter in Asia.
He placed me and my wife in HK and also placed other associates we know at both of our firms. Also, he has been providing free information on the Asia markets online for a long long time, going back to the greedy boards, where I first noticed him. I appreciate all that Evan is doing with this post series, but I don't think it is a significant part of his recruiting efforts.
If someone is interested in talking to an authority on US biglaw practices in Asia, they can contact Evan if they want and here what he has to say and make informed opinion from their own experience with Evan (myself and most people I know come away from those first conversations with Evan extremely impressed) or they can not, it does not really matter.
Who really comments on these boards (besides a random like me?). I know a lot of other associate friends in Asia and back in US that read AC and would never comment. Take away the recruiters and joksters and there are little comments left. These comments are so unimportant that Evan refuses to turn them off, even with the negative ones from recruiters all the time.
44, 45 again. I guess you don't realize that this is an advertisement from Kinney. You can choose to read it or not read it if you want, but it is an ad and usually in advertisements it is a good idea to promote oneself, right? Of course, if you are not interested in using Kinney's services, but read each word of these ads going back two years and read through the nonsensical comments (like most comment boards at ATL) from other recruiters, make your own comments, then what is the point? If you are an attorney who is not interested in using Kinney's services, then why the obsession over their ads? Are you an ad man that would like to sell them on your ideas? If not, then it is obvious what your misplaced inentions are.
44, 45 again. As you can see you have me worked up a lot more than Evan would be with your ridiculous slam of him. You question why lateral link and the no chance of winning lawsuit against Robert should be brought up the few times they have (by you or other recruiters), but you bring them up yourself because you are so excited about them both and with your one post just added significantly to the total comments about them.
Like I said, Evan placed my wife and me in HK and we know numerous other associates he has placed here. He told me during a lunch in HK last week that he averages about 35 placements a year in HK / China and I believe him. He is meeting with two of my colleagues this week in New York. Seems like he has a hand in most placements here that originate from the top NYC firms.
Please buy your own ad space.
OMG is Lateral Link suing you too? Yikes.
48, I have thankfully never been sued in my life (knock on wood) so no, lateral link is not suing me. Robert has been sued by Harrison Barnes in a laugher of a law suit that has no chance of succeeding and is full of false claims (Robert has sued Barnes as well but is not publishing the filing as Barnes did on his JD Journal website). We are not worried about it, to say the least. It has provided a lot of excitement for some of our lesser competitors, to be sure. It has also provided some entertainment around our offices because of the absurdity of the claims in the suit.
44, every now and then I respond to the slams from competitors on the comments, although it is probably a waste of time and I get crucified for it :-):
1) re testimonials, any associate I choose to work with that gets in touch with me, I am always happy to provide 50+ references of associates I have placed in Asia, as well as some that I have not placed, but helped with their transfer or lateral move. I don't like to publicize names of persons I have placed, for numerous reasons (that should be obvious).
2) this AC series of posts, although informative, is also an advertisement so it is place to plug our services. That is what an ad is for. However, I don't comment annonymously so the plugs in comments are just that, comments.
3) I have no idea what Russian contact you are refering to. I lived and worked in Russia for two years from '96 to '98, have a Russian wife and step-daughter, have many friends in Russia, speak Russian, recruit in Moscow market some, and served as Russian linguist in the Marines in early 90s.
4) I have made over 75 US associate placements in HK / China since Jan. '07 and I am confident there is no other recruiter that has made near as many US associate placements in the region during that time. This is simply a fact, but does not automatically make me a great recruiter. I can argue that I am the best US associate recruiter in Asia because of my reputation in the market earned over years (most of my clients and placements are referals); and I work 16 hour days routinely and love and and care deeply for what I do (for ex, whether it makes me a big dork or not, I woke up at 4am this morning, after only 2 hours sleep, after having a nightmare that I forgot to prep a candidate for an interview in HK taking place at 5pm HK time. of course I had prepped the associate but had to think about it...).
A small and real time example of what it takes to truly be the best agent / consultant / recruiter in the market, after one builds up a clientel and practice over some years:
this past Friday - after 8 meetings in HK that day and two crazy weeks of non-stop meetings, was at late dinner with colleague. A US associate tracked me down and insisted on coming to meet me re an offer he had received (not through me) and whether he should take it. I spent about 90 minutes with this person and was happy to do so, even though I had early AM flight to Tokyo and had fedw hours of calls to make back to US that night.
Saturday - flew to Tokyo (after being so tired I fell asleep on Cathay's golf cart that takes first class passengers from passport control to the lounge at gate 63). Had 5 hour layover in Tokyo, but took train to town for a meeting with a partner candidate there and took train back to Narita. Flew to Chicago.
Sunday - after landing home in Miami at 10pm and then working for few hours, caught 7am flight to JFK. Met with two partner candidate clients in NYC.
Monday - had 7 meetings with associate clients, not ending until 1.30am.
Today - have 11 meetings, back to back to back and so on (am on 45 minute break now), until 1am (then have several calls to make to asia markets)
Tomorrow -have 5 meetings from 8am until 2pm, then go to airport. soon after landing in Miami, I have 7 calls scheduled with partner and associate candidates in Asia.
I am dedicated to my recruiting / consulting work in Asia and love what I do. I admit, I am a bit crazy and work too much. I go a week at a time with 3 hours sleep then crash out. Although unhealthy, I rely on caffeine pills to get through days sometimes.
This is why I am good at what I do and why I have very impressive and qualified associates tracking me down and asking for meetings all the time when I am in NYC or Asia markets. I worked hard to build up a stellar reputation in the market and work tirelessly to help everyone qualified that I can possibly help in the time allowed in a given day.
For those US based recruiters trying to accomplish same, I wish you the best of luck and happy to help out with advice. The best advice: while you are building up reputation with law firm clients in Asia, ALWAYS be available, even if it means sleeping with your mobile phone and waking up to take unscheduled calls at 3am. Also, make sure your spouse / life partner / significant other is fully on board with the sacrafice because it is crazy work schedule and interrupted nights, as well as travel abroad about half the year.
Evan,
Caffeine pills? That's it? You sure? Hehe.
Wow, sounds like a sucky life.
Major Hagen & Africa rules!
49, what about that lawsuit makes you laugh? If it were I and if a competitor found out I was pseudonymously defaming him on ripoffreport.com, I'd hide my head in shame.
And now comes comment no. 54, starting with "I don't know Evan or Robert, but ...". We KNOW that's you!
I don't know Evan or Robert, but my sources in Asia tell me they are two of the most highly regarded recruiters in the legal field.
Another great and informative post thanks Evan.
Please keep the comments open. I find your answers to questions very helpful.
Candidates worth their salt (certainly the candidates you would choose to take on) are smart enough to not pay any attention to the comments posted by people who should get a life and spend time proactively working on placements. IMO, competitor slamming is a sign of someone who doesn't know how to do their job + just plain bad form.
Kinney guys, please keep AC running with comments and ignore unwarranted negative posts.
Another great and informative post thanks Evan.
Please keep the comments open. I find your answers to questions very helpful.
Candidates worth their salt (certainly the candidates you would choose to take on) are smart enough to not pay any attention to the comments posted by people who should get a life and spend time proactively working on placements. IMO, competitor slamming is a sign of someone who doesn't know how to do their job + just plain bad form.
Kinney guys, please keep AC running with comments and ignore unwarranted negative posts.
Another great and informative post thanks Evan.
Please keep the comments open. I find your answers to questions very helpful.
Candidates worth their salt (certainly the candidates you would choose to take on) are smart enough to not pay any attention to the comments posted by people who should get a life and spend time proactively working on placements. IMO, competitor slamming is a sign of someone who doesn't know how to do their job + just plain bad form.
Kinney guys, please keep AC running with comments and ignore unwarranted negative posts.
Another great and informative post thanks Evan.
Please keep the comments open. I find your answers to questions very helpful.
Candidates worth their salt (certainly the candidates you would choose to take on) are smart enough to not pay any attention to the comments posted by people who should get a life and spend time proactively working on placements. IMO, competitor slamming is a sign of someone who doesn't know how to do their job + just plain bad form.
Kinney guys, please keep AC running with comments and ignore unwarranted negative posts.
Another great and informative post thanks Evan.
Please keep the comments open. I find your answers to questions very helpful.
Candidates worth their salt (certainly the candidates you would choose to take on) are smart enough to not pay any attention to the comments posted by people who should get a life and spend time proactively working on placements. IMO, competitor slamming is a sign of someone who doesn't know how to do their job + just plain bad form.
Kinney guys, please keep AC running with comments and ignore unwarranted negative posts.
Another great and informative post thanks Evan.
Please keep the comments open. I find your answers to questions very helpful.
Candidates worth their salt (certainly the candidates you would choose to take on) are smart enough to not pay any attention to the comments posted by people who should get a life and spend time proactively working on placements. IMO, competitor slamming is a sign of someone who doesn't know how to do their job + just plain bad form.
Kinney guys, please keep AC running with comments and ignore unwarranted negative posts.
Another great and informative post thanks Evan.
Please keep the comments open. I find your answers to questions very helpful.
Candidates worth their salt (certainly the candidates you would choose to take on) are smart enough to not pay any attention to the comments posted by people who should get a life and spend time proactively working on placements. IMO, competitor slamming is a sign of someone who doesn't know how to do their job + just plain bad form.
Kinney guys, please keep AC running with comments and ignore unwarranted negative posts.
54, how exactly is Kinney a competitor of lawcrossing and legalauthority and other related job board sites? How is it defamation to point out that lawcrossing has F rating with business bureau, and other similar facts. To defame you have to first off say something that is not true. In my opinion, Robert, if he did comment, and the many other former employees of Barnes companies that commented on the many public service sites regarding claims against Barnes' companies were doing a public service warning people not to trust those companies and not to send their money there. I would not be surprised if there is an explosion of such comments on this board if former employees of Barnes and many pissed off customers of his companies start to notice these issues being brought up here.
FYI - as far as i'm aware there are only two excellent partner recruiters in Asia, Jim Olivier and Carl Hopkins! The rest simply don't get the respect of law firm management as far as i am comcerned.
Just read my alumni mag and I think the same Rob Kinney was PA '89? I am at S&C in the US now, but am thinking about trying make the move to the HK office one of these days....
Evan, Is it possible to negotiate for a better expat package if offered a low one in Asia?
@66: stop crying & go home.
I second 67. Nobody likes whiners.
ditto 67.
I have talked to Evan before. He knows the market better than any recruiter and most attorneys I have talked to before. He is at another level.
70 - what level, exactly?
TYIA.
I agree with 70. One chat with Evan and you will realize he is the biglaw recruiting guru for China.
Evan, I think you should start your own recruiting firm, as you seem to have all the action, why stay an employee when you can have it all as one man machine. On the other hand, maybe consider big players with real offices worldwide, like MLA, instead of a regional firm located in Austin, TX. Also, I hope you do not get mixed up with the lawsuit discussed above. It would be a shame for you to get bogged down with litigation, whether meritless or not, and have fewer hours to service your recruits. If the writing is on the wall, I think you could find another job somewhere. You seem very qualified. Yours truly.
evan, you and your wife are hotties!
xoxo,
bisexual brent
Do you ever place lateral partners, or just associates?
75 = troll
75, Evan and Robert have indicated many times in the AC that they place partners in Asia. I wonder if they really care all that much about placing associates any more, because of all their partner level work these days.
What does "AC" mean?
78是蠢猪
78, I think 77 means the Asia Chronicles.
不懂中文的请滚出中国法律圈子
滚滚滚！！！
Hi Evan,
What is the market standard for US qualified (JD) junior associate compensation among US/UK firms in Singapore? I know it used to be NY standard, but not sure what it is this year and for next year after the whole economy topples recently.
Thanks.
at the competitive firms (all major US and top UK firms), it is NY market rates and likely always will be. Firms differ quite a bit re the additional housing / expat allowance in Singapore. Typically, firms that offer 60k+ in HK offer zero to 30k expat allowance in Singapore. Keep in mind that if you are a US JD that is not coming from a major US or top UK firm (and with title of US associate at current firm), then you will likely get local rates in Singapore regardless of US JD. In other words, a US JD does not per se make you a US associate for comp purposes in Singapore. Also, if you are in a litigation / arbitration spot in Singapore, you will likely get paid at local rates, even if you are currently a US associate at a top 10 US firm. Typically, only transactional US associates get the US comp packages in Asia (although there are some exceptions to that).
83 - are you just asking out of curiosity? Thinking of running back to Singapore with your tail between your legs? If the latter, please write to asia@kinneyrecruiting.com.
TYIA
Hi Evan,
I'm a 1L at a T10. This summer, I have the option of interning at 1) a good-sized local law firm in Asia and 2) the legal department of a large corporation in Asia. Which one would you suggest I choose (as landing biglaw as a 1L seems impossible at this point)?
86, I think both seem like nice options for IL summer in this economy. If I had to choose without knowing more, I may lean towards law firm, but it does not matter much. Your IL grades are going to determine your 2L job and your chances of having a great first year associate job. Your IL summer spot is a nice line in your resume for interviews for 2L summer spots, but is not going to make a big difference. So go with the summer internship that you think will be the most rewarding experience for the summer.
Evan,
I am a T3 graduate currently working at a V10 in NYC. I'm thinking of moving to Asia for sh*ts and giggles. I am not "legally fluent" in any language other than English. What do you think?
88,
Not in this environment buddy. Asia isn't for sh*ts and giggles. Generally firms screen for "commitment" and "cultural compatibility".
You coming and going in a few years is not going to be looked upon favorably.
Consider Texas or Washington State...
89 - obviously I wouldn't let them know that. Thanks for the advice though!
- 88
Have asked here before, will try again. Does McKinney/ anyone work on U.S. placements in Thailand?
Thanks.
91 - no. There are like 5 firms in Thailand. Look them up and contact them.
Evan,
I got to HYS, if I were to talk to you, would you understand more than 50% of the words in my active vocabulary, and/or be able to conversate with me using somewhat similar logic?
picking up the comment #84 you made, for a US JD doing directly upon graduation to China offices of U.S. firms as an associate (not legal consultant), would he or she be considered as US associate for comp purpose?
94 - yes.
94, yes that is correct. As long as you are being considered a US associate at your firm in China (and you are going to a major firm that pays competitive comp, basically all major US firms), you will be compensated at US rates and depending on firm, will have certain expat package as well. The only exception would be if you are being put in a litigation or other group that happens to be considered a "local practice" at some firms and comp is then not US (some US firms, but not all, pay US JDs who are considered US associates local rates in China if they are in litigation oriented practices). In reality though you being a litigation 1st year in China is highly unlikely and the majority of US firms in China have little or no litigation practice there.
Evan, what is the rationale behind "some US firms, but not all, pay[ing] US JDs who are considered US associates local rates in China if they are in litigation oriented practices?"
Me Chinese Me want Big paying Lawyer Job in China.
Is bizness taking a hit son? You can't afford a new column? Damn, this one's been up a WHILE
97, there are various reasons, but if a US firm has a local practice already (such as in HK where some US firms have license to practice HK law and thus 50% or more of their attorneys are HK qualified), then any litigation oriented practice would be within that practice. Such US firms will usually offer even their own arbitration associates, let's say transfering from NYC, local rates if they work in HK because that is simply the market rate for that practice and such firm has a structure that includes a local practice team. On the other hand, if a US firm in HK without a local practice were to bring in an arbitration practice, for example, they will more likely pay US rates.
In reality though only a small percentage of US associates in HK / China are in a litigation related practice. IP litigation and arbitration practices are slowly expanding though.
99, apologies for having this post up so long. Have been too busy to write another the past few weeks. Have been that slammed with work and a lot of travel. Will put a new one up this weekend or next week. By the way, the cost of the ad space is same regardless of how often we write new posts, whether one post a year or new post every day...
Me Chinese,
Me Play Joke,
Me Put Pee-Pee in Your Coke.
Thanks, Evan, despite the fact that you constantly travel and are super busy at work, you not only take the time to write a column, but you also take extra time to write answers to posts (including some stupid ones that you really don't have to). I think it's pretty clear why you are so successful, and I hope the jealous minions of law students and associates don't get to you. Keep up the AMAZING work, and good luck destroying your competition, you've earned it!!!!!
103 = troll
WOW LOL @ 104!!! Jealous much of success?
Hi Evan,
Picking up on the comment you made #96, I am doing a US JD and have just been offered a Summer Associateship in Singapore by a major US firm (in the corporate transactional department.)
Assuming all goes well and they asked me to start in Singapore, will I be considered as US Associate for compensation purposes, or should I run to Hong Kong instead? How does first year US associate compensation typically work in Singapore?
Thanks!
Evan and others, please disregard 103, who is actually trying to discredit Evan by sarcastically posting overly effusive praise, which will then generate a round of comments accusing Evan of posting anonymously.
Evan and others, please disregard 103. He/she is actually trying to discredit Evan by facetiously posting overly effusive praise, which will then in turn generate a round of comments accusing Evan of posting anonymously.
Pardon the double post.
- 107/108
106, you will be a US associate for comp purposes in Singapore, will get NYC base and bonus (as long as you are at a competitive major US firm). However, in Singapore the expat / housing allowances are much smaller than in HK, with a number of top US firms offering no allowance at all, even though the cost of living in Singapore is not so drastically lower than HK. You will be better off than in NYC though, from take home pay perspective, if you are in Singapore, due to significant tax breaks you get as US person abroad (assuming you are US person).
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Evan,
You make my gaydar detector go off the chart! Keep posting the pics!
xoxo,
Michael P.
112, so you think we should look for jobs in Asia?
Evan
If the additional housing/expat allowance is so much lower, or even non existent in Singapore when compared to HK, what is the primary motivation for a US JD to choose to work in Singapore?
115 - It starts with a "p" and ends in a "y." Five letters.
115 - It's not like a U.S. JD entitles you to show up in either Hong Kong or Singapore and pick through a list of job offers. "Real laywer jobs" in both markets are at least as competitive as the NYC market, and likely more so.
Plus, anyone who says living in Singapore costs about the same as living in Hong Kong is not being forthright.
Finally, the Hong Kong jobs are generally considered more "prestigous", if that means anything, than the Singapore jobs.
*prestigious
-117.
117
Evan said the cost of living was not drastically different in post 110. Is he not being forthright?
119:
I think in Singapore the option of slumming it up/ living on the cheap while still maintaining some semblance of a comfortable lifestyle is very possible.
In Hong Kong, you can live cheaply, but you will be noticeably less comfortable.
Still, I would definitely defer to Evan over me, a random commenter.
-117.
119, HK is certainly a higher cost of living than Singapore. However, the difference in cost of living between the two cities is not so drastic to warrant the difference in expat packages that exist, especially when some top US firms pay zero expat packages in Singapore, but over 60k US in HK.
HK in general is a more desireable market than Singapore for young professionals coming from Western markets, such as NYC and London. Singapore is arguably a more beautiful place to live in general. There are more US associate positions in HK and firms in HK, especially in hot markets, have to compete more vigorously for talent than in Singapore.
The drastic difference in expat packages between the two markets has to do with a) traditionally, going back decades, companies did not pay expat in Singapore because it was considered a paradise destination, rather than hard overseas duty; b) during the recent boom from '05 to '08, firms in HK drastically raised the expat packages due to the competition for talent there; and c) just as Singapore US firms were about to raise expat packages in that market in late '08, the market crashed.
There are some great opportunities in Singapore as a US associate. However, most junior to mid-level US associates moving to SE Asia focus in on HK rather than Singapore, unless they have personal connection to Singapore. In a hot market, those that look at both markets, typically have 4 offers for every 1 in Singapore, due to their being more need for US associates in HK. Singapore went on mini hiring boom in late '07 to early '08, but not nearly at level of HK.
There is, in general at US firms, a focus in Singapore on project finance and banking, as well as an India practice focus. Most US firms with offices in Singapore, have much larger offices in HK. The majoritiy of US firms with offices in HK do not have Singapore offices.
Evan
Thanks for the explanation.
115, 119