Not in BigLaw, try medium to small firms.

I do not understand this at all. I heard from everyone that IP was "recession proof". I guess its not depression proof.

Sucks for us.

I know seven IP attorneys who have been fired in the past six months. Incidentally, all seven were dilatory in law school, inane at their law firms, and are now penurious.

I thought IP was always secure.

good luck. even most mid-small firms are barely interviewing these days. even if you do snag one, they're still hiring far fewer summers/associates than in the good ole days...

Mission Accomplished!

All of you suck.

JaKe' I'd love to CaVe your face in.... fag

I knew things were bad when the marquee read:

Puppet Show

and

AIPLA Career Fair

IP SECURE

JaKe,

I am going to cover you in bbq sauce and leave bound and naked in Mystal's office. Hopefully he eats you in one sitting.

guest

Honestly, not all IP is equal. Hard is not the same as soft. Prosecution is not the same as litigation.

The really good patent litigation shops are doing fine because those cases have to be brought, but like any other litigation shop, if the case can be settled, there is a lot of pressure to do that.

@13 - You lie.

"does anybody know where an IP attorney can get a job?"
Bend over and I'll show you.

Or maybe firms aren't in a position where they need to do screening interviews in October. The PLIP at Chicago was full of employers looking for patent focused summer associates. Between this, normal OCI and people dumping IP resumes on firms, I doubt firms are still at a loss for applicants.

Workiing in IP, I think that right now the practice is far from recession proof. In a way, it is what I would compare to a perfect storm.

Due to the recession, companies have severely cut their R&D and as such new filings are down. The policy of the U.S. Patent Office has made it almost impossible to get a patent resulting in more applications being abandoneed and fewer applications being filed.

On the litigation end, the costs have sky-rocketed. Also, the current case law is very much against the patentee. It is relatively easy to assert inequitable conduct and allege that a patent is invalid due to obviousness. Thus, I think savy patentees are hesistant to sue. Those that sue demand severe fixed fees which means that most firms are not making much money on a case and that the pressure is there to settle the case.

As to the poster that noted that not all IP is created equal, while I have to agree that it all depends on the firm and the type of clients in general the statistics show that patent work (counseling/ltigation) is way down compared to other practice areas (almost as bad as M&A and real estate). The fact that the work is down is confirmed by the layoffs at big IP firms such as Fish & Richardson. F & R is consistently ranked as one of the highest filers for patent litigations. Yet they have lost in excess of 100 attorneys in a year.

Very sorry to hear about this. Still, kudos to the conference organisers for giving the heads-up in advance. It's extremely annoying to attend an interview/career fair only to find that employers aren't seriously considering hiring.

Irell's still hiring. Just make sure you go to HYS.

frosty piss

Couldn't IP litigators just transfer to plain litigation? Depos are depos, motions are motions. Just because most general litigators can't understand the technology and PTO jargon involved in patent litigation, doesn't mean that an average IP litigator couldn't handle a contract dispute.

David, did the puppets get bigger dressing rooms? Nigel

What is HYS?

Irell is a shit shop. Always has been, always will be.

Locke Lord Houston

this is all very interesting, but ATL seems to always dodge the central question: is the legal economy good or bad?

Nigel:

I never found out. The prospects of legal employment were so dim that I left and did some freeform jazz exploration instead.

God the commenters (excluding myself) are losers. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^***********************************************************
#!@$%&!@#$%&%$#&!!@$#%&&%#$%@!&*$%#*&!
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910
10987654321zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedca. JaKe E.

The AIPLA career fair includes a lot of soft IP. The real test for IP is whether the Patent Law Interview Program was strong this past August. I'm betting that there was no shortage of employers there.

When I signed up for the AIPLA job fair this year, I was told that a typical number of employers was 30-40. That means that this year's 9 employers is a 75% drop from past years. It's bad for IP too. I know very experienced and qualified people who can't find a job to save their lifes.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

B==> -~o -~o -~0 ( . )( . )

21-
But other litigators are light on work, too.

IP on the East Coast is in disarray right now. West Coast IP boutiques seem to be doing much better than their East Coast brother and sisters. Firms that do a lot of work for start-ups or companies that require regular tranches of VC funding, are approaching crises mode.

31: i'm intrigued by your ideas and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter

17 --
"The policy of the U.S. Patent Office has made it almost impossible to get a patent ..."

Really? I work in an IP firm that received almost 400 Notices of Allowance in September alone. No, the industry is not recession-proof, but your statement is a bit of a stretch.

I hear the Pitcock Law Group is hiring.

Anyone have any insight into how the IP lit departments of the big Boston firms are doing?

Number 18. How about some citations for your stats? F and r and layoffs heavy In corporate. Of course you don't even mention that.

35 - 17 here. I am glad that your personal experience is better. I prosecute biotech cases and it is almost impossible to get a notice of allowance.

A large IP boutique is doing another round of interviews at my school (decidedly not a top school). It's possibly because they didn't yet know what their hiring plans were when they were here in August.

If you're a student and you know people at firms that have canceled their summer programs, keep in touch with them. Those firms may be willing to hire interns and clerks at hourly rates. No, it's not SA pay, but a job is a job, experience is experience, and if a position does open up you won't be competing with an entire SA class for it.

37 - pretty great.

"HARD" IP SECURE

Elie, thanks for this post. Keep up the good work putting the lie to the "IP is fine" myth.

37-
Not well. A few firms are having no summer program to speak of. A couple I've been talking to were done with their hiring mid-Sept. Most that are hiring seem to be taking on 1/2 the usual number of summers.

Plus, if you're not in the area, you up against Boston's notorious xenophobia of anyone who went to a non-617 school.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but you're gonna have to work harder for a job this year and keep an open mind. I'm even applying for jobs (shudder) outside of 128.

Number 18. How about some citations for your stats? F and r and layoffs heavy In corporate. Of course you don't even mention that.

3L here...I've got an IP job starting in the Fall of 2010 in Mid-Law. Life is good.

41,

That's not what I hear. How were your department's collections for last quarter? Hmm, that's what I thought. And what about prosecution? DOA , right? What did you bill for September, by the way?

The AIPLA Job Fair is not a priority for IP firms. Look - they get 30-40 in good years. The Loyola program has probably 2-3 times as many students and employers.

All firms are looking at containing costs now, so the less-attractive forums are being dropped, especially those that require travel.

Our AmLaw 100 firm is hiring in IP litigation, but I won't name it because we are already swimming in ridiculously good candidates. Seriously, competition among people with 4.0-delta GPAs in college and Order of the Coif grades in top 10 law schools.

Everyone interviewing students for IP positions is thinking "I could NEVER have gotten a job in this market." And they are probably right.

"Our AmLaw 100 firm is hiring in IP litigation, but I won't name it because we are already swimming in ridiculously good candidates. Seriously, competition among people with 4.0-delta GPAs in college and Order of the Coif grades in top 10 law schools.

Everyone interviewing students for IP positions is thinking "I could NEVER have gotten a job in this market." And they are probably right. "

47 is right. I can't remember the last time I saw a resume without a Phd. And this is not the usual ATL fear mongering - the quality of applicants for IP jobs is mind-boggling.

21: Yes, IP litigators can transfer to "regular" litigation. However, there is a glut of those also.

46 - All good. Billed 190 in Sept.

- 41

san jose!

I am recruiting Ph.D. bio/chem prosecutors for a firm in D.C. Please feel free to e-mail me at sam at rosenstocksearch dot com.

I hear Fish & Richardson is hiring like crazy. Great firm too, really stable, and they treat their people great!!!

- Stuck in '06

People with EE or CS degrees are having an easy time getting a job even in this economy, the other disciplines are having a great deal of trouble

@17 - I do IP litigation and "It is relatively easy to assert inequitable conduct and allege that a patent is invalid due to obviousness" is nonsense.

About 2.5 years ago everyone was worried that would be the future, but the Fed. Cir. has curbed those concerns in the last 12 months or so.

That said, IP lit isn't exactly thriving right now.

We need to bomb IP back to the stoneage!

-DOJ Secure

People with EE or CS degrees are basically being forced to beat recruiters away with brooms, even In This Economy.

I'm heaing a lot of mixed messages here. I can speak only for my patent boutique, which has just over 100 patent attorneys. We are busy, we are giving almost every client some discount (5-10%), and we aren't hiring.

My experience at an EE/CS boutique is similar to that of 58. There is business, but it isn't as profitable.

The definition of "soft" in the IP job market is that there are EE/CS guys who have not had a cold call from a recruiter this week.

It's only Wednesday. Chill out.

There is a glut of MS/PhD grads with law degree, because no one was hiring BS/MS bio/chem/genetics/pharm science grads from 2000-2004. These people went into PhD programs to ride out the economy. When that failed, they went to law school, only to face this economy.

It must be soul destroying to have graduated high school in the mid-1990's and have been in college and law school since then to only graduate from law school into this mess with multiple 100,000 loans hanging over your head.

Anecdotal: The only unemployed EE/CS prosecutor that I personally know has a crappy technical degree, a TTT law degree, and has not passed the patent bar.

Most IP lawyers that I know would be well-suited for employment at the local hobby store that sells Magic: The Gathering cards.

63,
There's a lot of value in being able to connect with your clients.
-EE patent lawyer

64 = Alexandra Dupre

65,
Well played.
-64, Spitzer Secure

62 - isn't a TTT law degree de rigueur for IP attorneys? (e.g., Santa Clara)

Patent application filings are down about 20% this year. BigLaw patent prosecution shops are getting hit harder than the solos and boutiques because you get the same (sometimes better) quality for a fraction of the price. Corporations are beginning to catch on to this.

Santa Clara. It's like one of the top schools.

Beckham secure

68 - Working in BigLaw I am surprised it has taken so long for clients to catch on. For proseuction, BigLaw just cannot compete with smaller firms where the rates are $100/hour or more cheaper for people with similar experience.

The economy is soft for IP lawyers?? Fuck you Elie. YOU'RE SOFT.

fucking fat tub of shit

Not sure if 69 is flame, but...

Full-Time Part-Time

75th Percentile LSAT 161 159
25th Percentile LSAT 157 156
Median LSAT 160 157

IP FREELY

IP on everything.

Too bad the IP losers didn't do corporate. Even according to ATL, "Deal Work Is Blazing Back."

Even the mighty Kirkland is hurting in IP.

72 - It's from Bend it like Beckham.

But SC was the home of Chisum.

69

Earning potential for a Santa Clara J.D. w/ a sci/eng background = earning potential for a T-14 lib arts.

Bonus: better hours, no need for social skills.

The reality is that many IP firms are doing well, they just are not hiring newbies. Why would we when there are numerous people with actual experience available (e.g. unemployed patent agents/consultants/attorneys and patent examiners). Unless you have IP experience your chances of getting employment are not very good. Newbies require a lot of resources to train. Even then there is no assurance you have a mind for this type of practice. I had to unlearn most of what I learned in law school to do my job.

Rakoczy firm in Chicago. IP boutique.

Rakoczy firm in Chicago. IP boutique.

IP boutique in NYC - foreign prosecution factory and some domestic clients. Filings are down by about 15% for foreign clients and new apps are down by about 30% for domestic clients.

They fired 4 or 5 patent pros associates and offered x months severance if they signed a non-compete. Some of the associates apparently refused and immediately poached business.

Partners have been spending more time on the phone brown nosing the poached clients and with employment lawyers than any sane person would want.

Upshot of this is that the boutique would have had to give a 40% discount to get the work back. This would have meant it was cheaper to keep the associates on board. Hope that realization saves a few more jobs around here, especially considering three years ago they were unwilling to give a 20% discount to my piddly-ass potential clients.

82,

Payback is a biznatch.

...And justice is sweet.

Computer Science isn't even a science degree. If you aren't knowledgable in the area, don't post. Just look at the requirements for the patent bar. You're all idiots.

Covington is hiring.

Covington is not hiring.

I know I'm not really adding anything to the conversation, but I just wanted to say that 85 is a dick.

Computer Engineering is an acceptable degree for qualifying to take the patent bar. Computer Engineering vs Computer Science is semantics. Furthermore, far more schools offer a BS CS than offer a BA CS. So yeah, I think I speak for everyone when I say that YOU'RE an idiot. Idiot.

82, I like your story. If you can do the work, more attorneys should take this approach. I did something similar, although it involved going to another firm with much lower billing rates than my old employer. I love competing against my old firm. I know all their weak spots and routinely use them to my advantage. My partner was so arrogant thinking that the clients were coming for him. That was certainly true, but not entirely so. If you aren't treated right, the best revenge is turning a partner's clients into your own.

82

My understanding is that a law firm cannot ask a departing attorney to sign a non-compete agreement, because it violates a client's right to select counsel of his/her choice.

maybe 82 meant a confi and waiver of claims againsts the firm?

85- YOU are the idiot... there are many schools that have Comp Sci programs that qualify you to sit for the Patent Bar. www.uspto.gov Do your homework before you post.

85,

Two things: 1. you are wrong/ignorant. 2. the patent bar is only necessary if you want to go into patent prosecution. if you plan on going into ip litigation, it is not necessary -- although opinions differ on if it is beneficial.

Biglaw is currently cutting out prosecution and focusing on litigation, so if you want to work in biglaw, in ip, in most v50 firms, no patent bar necessary.
(Could I have more ,s in that sentence? I think not.)

Lastly, what you mean to say is that "computer science" isnt "engineering." I think most would agree EE is not "science" but it is engineering, while biology is science, but not engineering.

In conclusion..you're a moron.

91, I wondered about that, too. Maybe it was a confidentiality agreement and waiver. Definitely, the idea was that they could not approach the clients.

Anything that is public info is fair game. For foreign cases its easy to know who the agents are if they filed a PCT application. In-house counsel are a bit harder to reach.

IP is only soft in degenerate general practice firms that do transactions and patent boutiques that litigate like little girls and obtain patents from government clerks. My fanatical IP litigation legions are strong and will accept new comrades who wish to join my litigator's paradise and serve me. When all others disappear, I WILL REMAIN!

87, that's not correct. Covington has actually hired several lateral associates over the past year, both in IP Lit and other practice areas (and no layoffs).

"The policy of the U.S. Patent Office has made it almost impossible to get a patent resulting in more applications being abandoneed and fewer applications being filed."

Patents are not granted or denied based on "the *policy* of the U.S. Patent Office". Those decisions are made on the basis of U.S. patent law as it currently exists.

97 - Then why did Kappos recently send a memo to all examiners, directing them to be more proactive in arriving at allowable claims, and stressing the rejections to not equal quality? And try citing U.S. Patent law as it currently exists to an examiner - they don't care. So, patent granting decisions are at least heavily influenced by PTO policy, and decisions are not necessarily based on current US patent law (though they ought to be).

Agree that the earlier statement that "it is almost impossible to get a patent" is overstating the situation.

98 here - sorry, I pulled an Elie - I meant "stressing that rejections do not equal quality."

100th! I am awesome!

At my GP firm, work has significantly shrunk over the past six months. A caseload that used to provide more than enough work for me to exceed the billing goal now has me at my lowest billable hours ever. It is across the board in our department. Clients almost simultaneously started dropping half their cases, and instructing us to delay action as long as possible and/or spend minimum effort on matters. If it doesn't turn around soon, am pretty sure they will start firing some of us.

while 85 might be a dick, he's got a point. a CS degree might be substantively identical to an engineering degree, but doesn't automatically qualify you to sit for the patent bar, while an engineering degree does. might be/probably is a dumb policy, but that's how it is.

Ugh. An accredited CS degree DOES "automatically" qualify you to sit for the patent bar.

http://www.abet.org/AccredProgramSearch/AccreditationSearch.aspx

Use the "Program Area" drop-down menu to search for accredited CS programs. There are several hundred.

Irell stronger than ever in IP lit.

101, if you are doing patent pros, firing you is a no-win proposition for a partner, because you can solicit business from the clients directly.

There are lots of advantages in patent prosecution: "bar" admission that is good in all 50 states, being able to work from your laptop and file electronically, billing on a per piece basis, and small pieces of work that clients are willing to try you out even if you are new, to name a few.

Transferring applications on which you are working is a no-brainer for clients, since it avoids someone else having to study the application. Even if the partner writes that time off, it hurts his realization rate, especially at a GP firm.

Most Japanese patent firms are only three or four patent agents, so they won't see a problem sending you work. Pick up some rudimentary Japanese on you downtime and you will find an easier time to connect to JP clients when you visit.

Can't tell you to keep a copy of your docket from now on so you know what you are/were working on, but . . .

Wow, patent prosecution sounds like a lot of fun.

Work is work. But working from the beach, your kids' play room, or a titty bar is divine.

106, you do what you want, I'll do what I want, which is what 95+% of law grads can't do, others who could don't have the brains for, and more don't want to do.

ITT: a bunch of people bitter about not getting science-related UG degrees