They probably did one of those application fee waivers for everyone with a >145 LSAT.

'Iowa had an 87.4% employed at graduation statistic last year.

=====

that employment stat sure sounds like a Big Old Lie
I do not believe that 87 percent of all iowa law school grads had jobs at graduation.

These law schools lie and lie and lie, all so they can make more money, mo money mo money.

These law schools need to be investigated to see if the banks that make the student loans are paying the law school admins to inflate the employment stats so that more students will enroll.

several years ago when I was applying to law school, Iowa was ranked a top 25 school. even then they waived my application fee. I guess that's what you do to get people to consider living in Iowa City for 3 years.

The problem is that the prospective students that are capable of reasoning get into schools that provide a legitimate, albeit diminishing, chance of employment. So the ones that can reason are justified in their reasoning, and the rest -like those applying to Iowa- aren't capable of understanding the situation.

4 here again - just wanted to clarify that I got into Iowa and turned it down. So I can't relay any info on how the job market looks for those graduating from Iowa.

Also - before law school, I had never heard of ATL and didn't read it until I had started law school. I'm not sure warning prospective law students about the state of the legal industry here is going to do much good. And sadly I dont' see law schools or the ABA or anyone doing anything to slow the interest in the legal profession.

4 - Iowa City used to have one of the best pizza places in the nation. Unfortunately, it got shut down for serving alcohol to minors.

is the "up, way up" headline a nod to this scene from Slap Shot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFSCP8IMehU

its immediately what I thought of -- guess that’s the gift of a rustbelt youth....

Iowa is a top-25, a state school, and places well in Chicago, Minn., Iowa, Indiana, St. Louis, etc . . .

IN-state tuition is low. One could argue that it might make sense for someone to choose Iowa over BU for example, if they get some scholarship money and in-state tuition.

This is the reason apps are up, I would suspect.

The real problem is that law is not unique in the underemployment/deflation world. Every alternative profession that these would-be students are qualified for is facing the same situation. Ask a newly-minted undergraduate engineer or econ guy about his/her job and salary prospects.

60k for a shot at the big or midlaw lottery doesn't look so bad given the alternatives.

The problem is the government subsidizing law school debt.

No subsidy = less debt available = lower demand = lower tuition = lower starting salaries = lower billing rates. A virtuous cycle.

Iowa places well in BIGCORNLAW but that's about it.

There should be only 100 American law schools. Maybe 50.

12 YESSSS!!!!!

Deflationary pressure? What are you talking about? Salaries skyrocketed from 1998 ($80k for first years) to 2001 ($125K), and again from 2006 ($135K) to 2007 ($160K). And except for a few firms that are really struggling, starting salaries have remained at those levels through one of the sharpest financial crises in decades. All while the number of law students rose significantly (as a response to those salaries).

There's no deflationary pressure for talent. The only people complaining about salaries in this industry are the ones who aren't talented enough to distinguish themselves and land jobs at the 100 or so firms employing a combined 80,000 associates at these salaries. Them, and bloggers who quit the profession.

I graduated from Iowa in May. While am sure that people have all sorts of different feelings about their experience at Iowa, I think it is a totally over-rated law school. First, I will say that I did get a job at a big firm, so these comments are not because I am bitter.

Iowa is a school that is in desperate need of money. They have too few faculty members, and there course offerings suffer from this. Furthermore, some of their faculty choice are made out of desperation, and the school does not hire the most qualified faculty.

The program is better than a lot of of programs at other lower ranked schools, but the scholarship that comes out of the school is not that impressive (besides that of Herbert Hovenkamp).

Last, because of its location, it is not nearly as effective at placing its graduates in good, high-paying jobs as other schools ranked near Iowa. The University of Illinois is much better if you want to go to Chicago and Minnesota is better if you want to practice in Minneapolis. So, I guess I am just unsure of why someone would choose Iowa over other comparative schools.

Undergrads know better than to try to enter the job market, so... Apply to grad school in order to postpone working for a living.

WTF do you mean by "that's right, Iowa"? Iowa has been, and continues to be, a top 25-30 law school at a fairly reasonable price. Admittedly, 40K for out of state seems a bit steep, but they also provide a lot of scholarships (I went there on a full-ride). As far as job prospects, I had a ton, and currently work at a V20 firm in a major city. As far as Iowa City goes, it's not nearly as bad as this article or posters make it sound. Yes, it's not Chicago, LA, NYC, etc., but it's got a great undergrad insitution, which brings a lot of culture and activities to the city. It's very progressive, especially for Iowa, and it's really not a bad place at all to live for three years. Oh, and great live music.

16--if your writing is representative of the product Iowa puts out, the law school should be closed.

But what I really wanted to say is that NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO GO TO HARVARD, Elie. Get over it.

Ricky Stanzi sucks.

if quotes lord of the rings, then does not continue reading

Does an increase in applications mean an increase in class size? I don't quite get how this will destroy the legal profession. It just seems like the effect would be to have a 2013 class that has much higher numbers than classes in the past. Maybe if Cooley opens a 2,000 person law school in Iowa and all the dings go there, that would be a cause for panic. I would think it is better for the legal profession to have "smarter" students getting their JD's? Not sure, just a thought...

15,

What about the thousands that have been laid-off or no-offered? What about current 2Ls at my t-6 school, half of whom do not have a paid gig lined up for the summer and will likely not get one? I'm sure it's because the most recent graduates and students are of worse stock than there predecessors. It can't be the economy, lol.

There is certainly deflationary pressure in the industry when students and graduates of top schools now earn a lot less than what they would have just a few years earlier.

It's possible Iowa will receive a similar number of applications this cycle as it has in past cycles. The difference is that everyone is applying much, much earlier.

I used to live in DC. I moved to the Midwest for law school, with the expectation that I would get the hell out of there immediately following graduation. After a year of living in Madison, WI, I realized that I didn't want to leave. As much as I miss the nice things that come along with a larger market (e.g., better restaurants), I don't miss the dbags like Elie who talk out of their ass about places they've never been to or lived in.

Don't listen to the nay-sayers, Elie, weaving in LOTR quotes is great, and just about the only redeeming quality that exists in any of your writing.

I used to live in DC. I moved to the Midwest for law school, with the expectation that I would get the hell out of there immediately following graduation. After a year of living in Madison, WI, I realized that I didn't want to leave. As much as I miss the nice things that come along with a larger market (e.g., better restaurants), I don't miss the dbags like Elie who talk out of their ass about places they've never been to or lived in.

Elie, what the hell man? Your post is unnecessarily pretentious against Iowa. You don't write these things when referencing a coastal non t14 school.

Iowa is constantly a top 25 law school and you forget one MAJOR consideration: you can get in-state tuition for 2 and 3L year quite easily. A t25 legal education with thousands less in debt than peers? My god, it's almost like Iowa sounds like an EXCELLENT CHOICE for those who want a legal education but recognize the biglaw model is dead.

You should edit your post and do justice to Iowa's law school.

YOU ARE A STUPID ELIE

This article and most of its comments are incredibly rude and misinformed. The University of Iowa is a top 30 law school, and the state has a civil rights history that seemingly more “enlightened” states could only dream of: http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/choosing-iowa-as-a-target-for-gay-marriage-laws/. Undoubtedly the major increase in applications is based largely on the bad economy. I’m sure Iowa is not alone in its huge increase in applications. But maybe, just maybe, people are finally beginning to recognize Iowa in general (and Iowa City specifically) for what it is and has always been - a place that celebrates and encourages intelligence, industry, independence AND kindness. Believe it or not, those things aren’t always mutually exclusive.

This article and most of its comments are incredibly rude and misinformed. The University of Iowa is a top 30 law school, and the state has a civil rights history that seemingly more “enlightened” states could only dream of: http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/choosing-iowa-as-a-target-for-gay-marriage-laws/. Undoubtedly the major increase in applications is based largely on the bad economy. I’m sure Iowa is not alone in its huge increase in applications. But maybe, just maybe, people are finally beginning to recognize Iowa in general (and Iowa City specifically) for what it is and has always been - a place that celebrates and encourages intelligence, industry, independence AND kindness. Believe it or not, those things aren’t always mutually exclusive.

The real problem is the huge influx of foreign lawyers into the U.S. legal market. Big law's associate ranks are made of about 15-20% foreign lawyers. Address that issue and you've gone a long way toward reversing these "deflationary pressures."

What's up with all the iowa haters? Last time I checked Iowa had a more evolved populace than, say, California or Maine.

I'm an '09 Iowa grad clerking right now for a federal court. I have plenty of complaints about the school, but a generally good experience. Also, Iowa City is a fun, good sized college town. It's not a rural community for those of you who have difficulty imagining what Iowa is like.

I know that the Dean of Admissions is very self righteous about not "gaming the system" so I would be surprised if they had accomplished this through some crazy fee waiver, but maybe they've had a shift in policy in the past year. I don't know 62% seems crazy high.

What's up with all the iowa haters? Last time I checked Iowa had a more evolved populace than, say, California or Maine.

What's up with all the iowa haters? Last time I checked Iowa had a more evolved populace than, say, California or Maine.

I rather die than live in Iowa for any amount of time.

35 - unless you're referring to the populace of the Iowa Supreme Court, you're mistaken. Gay marriage was instituted in Iowa by seven people, and the process for amending the constitution is pretty rigorous as I understand it, so the state is kind of stuck with it.

Have you ever even been to Iowa, #37? And I'm not talking driven through it on I80/visited Grandma at Christmas. I'm talking actually stayed her and spent time here. Because I can't imagine that anyone who has actually given this state a chance could say something that extreme and ridiculous.

#38, read the link on post 30. There's a lot more to Iowa than the Varnum decision.

What's up with all the iowa haters? Last time I checked Iowa had a more evolved populace than, say, California or Maine.

What's up with all the iowa haters? Last time I checked Iowa had a more evolved populace than, say, California or Maine.

Iowa is an excellent law school. Elie, your comments are better directed at certain, predatory fourth-tier schools than they are at quality institutions like this. Going to Iowa is an eminently sensible choice for prospective lawyers

Elie, you are an embarrassment who has ruined what used to be a great site.

What's up with all the Iowa haters? Last time I checked Iowa had a more evolved populace than, say, California or Maine.

40 - well the comment I was responding to was specifically referencing gay marriage, so that's what I why I went that way. I'm familiar with Iowa's progressive history, but why do things like Iowa Supreme Court rulings from the 1800s say anything relevant about the population today? If anything, they're a lot less relevant to Iowa's populace than Varnum.

34, 38

32 - If the huge influx of foreign lawyers into the U.S. legal market really bothers you then START LEARNING TO SPEAK FOREIGN LANGUAGES. Or stay in Iowa. I honestly do not know why I spend the time explaining to you simpletons these elementary facts.

This isn't so much about Iowa hating as it is law student hating. I don't want any place, including Harvard and Yale, to have an increase in applications of 62%. There's too many freaking law students as it is, the last thing we need is more. The ABA needs to get on the freaking ball. Isn't it supposed to represent currently practicing lawyers? Isn't it in our interest to restrict access to the profession? What is the malfunction over there that is preventing them from cutting back on law schools? I honestly don't understand.

How does an increase in applications automatically mean an increase in lawyers?

Iowa has ALWAYS been a TOP 25 law school; this is the first, and hopefully only, year outside the top 25. It generally places at least one quarter of its students in jobs through OCI, which is about ten percent higher than the national average. It provides in state tuition to 2nd and 3rd year students as well as insurance and a monthly stipend for working as a research assistant. Iowa's student-edited journals are some of the best in the nation. Iowa City is small, but a small city allows students to focus on what is really important - education. It's a great school and more people are realizing that. I, and many of my 3rd year colleagues, have biglaw jobs in major cities waiting for us after graduation. (Note, I said biglaw, not bigcornlaw.) Iowa is a great school and deserves some respect.

48 - you're right, but more applicants does not necessarily mean more lawyers; it means the application process will be more competitive. in the long run, more applicants might mean the ABA will approve a new school (which will lead to more new attorneys every year), but in the short term a higher number of applicants will not lead to more attorneys because the current class sizes are relatively fixed.

An increase in applications at any one school does not mean an increase in lawyers, of course, it's just symptomatic of the problems with process - lies about employment statistics, ease of access to loans, and an overabundance of law schools which waters down positions so that average students can get in to the field. Preferably, I would want it to run like medical school, if you don't have a 3.6 GPA and a 165 LSAT you don't even bother top apply to law school, 'cause you ain't getting in.

I'm sensing slobbery and snobbery from the author.

48-

You are an idiot.

1) As has been pointed out on here repeatedly, more applications DOES NOT MEAN more lawyers. It means more competition for the same number of spots (unless Cooley/Florida Coastal/etc . . . open yet another branch school).

2) The A.B.A. is not a cartel. You expect it to just go revoking accreditation from random schools? What about the current students? What about the schools themselves?

I do, however, acknowledge that perhaps a time has come to "raise the standards" substantially for new law school accreditations.

There are serious problems at U of Iowa Law. Take a look at the faculty at Drake, the other, less reputable law school in Iowa. At Drake, almost every faculty member is from a very strong, top law school. Now take at look at Iowa's faculty - on a one by one comparison, the credentials just don't stack up.

While there are some very strong professors at Iowa, most of those people are close to retirement age. The younger faculty members of this strong cohort don't make up for the fact that Iowa seems to be doing nothing to attract and retain a strong faculty. Attracting strong, younger faculty members is critical to keeping the school vital and the academic quality high. Iowa does seem to be able to attract a bumbling diversity tool for a Dean, but I don't think that will make up for the shortcomings in other areas.

There is an overreliance on "adjuncts" at Iowa - a sure sign that something is wrong. One particular adjunct, a former SCOTUS cleark, is a total flame out who hasn't done anything of professional or academic significance in almost 40 years. He has an unsubstantiated, outsized ego, acts as though he's some sort of legal god, and is vindictive and childish toward students who refuse to treat him as such. Other "adjuncts" at this place have thin to questionable credentials.

There are several important structural issues that need to be addressed, but the current administration seems to be doing nothing but digging a deeper hole. There is no commitment to bringing in new faculty - four very good people left last year and this doesn't even begin to address the more than a dozen who have left in the last decade.

There is no commitment to getting rid of dead wood teachers in the adjunct ranks. There is no commitment to maintaining and improving the quality of the education received. There is no commitment to quality students who want to have a legal career. There is no effort to expanding employment connections and opportunities for graduates.

Law school applicants thinking about attending Iowa should grill the administration about employment figures. Iowa regularly reports that well over 90% of its grads are employed 9 months after graduation. Reporting a figure this high would be laughable in a good economy, but it's outright fraudulent in the current economy.

Iowa should own up to the reality of the market. If they don't or can't, then new students shouldn't trust this place with their futures and money.

Only people who go to the top 10 universities, law schools, and business schools should be allowed to have careers. Everyone else should be forced into slave labor to pay off their student loan debts, and then summarily executed/euthanized.

Go ahead and call me a troll, but this is the general attitude on this website.

Iowa is the armpit of Wisconsin...the hairy, non-deodorant wearing armpit...

54 -

1) As I just explained, and could have been inferred from my statement about this not being an Iowa problem, obviously more applications to Iowa does not mean more applications, but if you took your head out of your ass and looked at the big picture, you might realize that it is a symptom of a larger problem.

2) Why should the ABA not function like a cartel? That's what a guild or union is SUPPOSED to do, that's why it exists. A cartel is an organization that fixes prices. A guild or union is an organization that fixes prices for labor. Sounds pretty freaking similar to me. Go back to your hole, stupid.

I turned down Harvard for Iowa, in part because Harvard seemed full of jerks with Elie's condescending attitude. I know another person who turned down some T10s for Iowa. It is a strong school with an excellent reputation. After factoring in the low cost (hardly anyone pays out-of-state tuition for 2L or 3L year) and the fact that you don't have to deal with the Elies of the world, it is a steal.

I am much happier with my foreign colleagues who manage to get into biglaw and an H1-B in this political environment than I would be working with nativists who bitch about how they are too incompetent to get a job when competing with people for whom English is a 2nd, 3rd or 4th language.
Elie, I am sorry that you were a casualty of better foreigner English, because you don't seem to blame the foreigner. Good on you.

oops, i meant more law students - 58

easy: college grads with no job prospects blindly assume that spending 3 years and 50k-180k will dramatically (magically?) improve their life prospects. law school is not for everyone but it is marketed as such.

I turned down Ohio State to go to Iowa because Iowa had better looking cows grazing on campus ( in the Ag school) One expecialliy charming bovine gave me the eye and next I knew I had hot monkey love for prime rib.

I turned down Ohio State to go to Iowa because Iowa had better looking cows grazing on campus ( in the Ag school) One expecialliy charming bovine gave me the eye and next I knew I had hot monkey love for prime rib.

I'm a 3L at Iowa and I'm sick of people who know nothing about the state or the school assume we're nothing but a bunch of hicks because we're in the Midwest and we're not Chicago. Last summer I had students from Rutgers and Seton Hall mock Iowa law to my face, saying they "didn't even know Iowa had a law school" - yeah, that's probably because we're too far up the rankings for you to see us from down there.

Iowa law has its flaws, some problems with the administration are getting worked out and a number of departing high-quality professors are being replaced by under-qualified and unexperienced profs but it's still a solid program.

Finally, Iowa City is a great town that UNESCO named a City of Literature (one of only three in the world) and that's full of decent, well educated, well read and socially progressive people.

Stanzi is the Manzi.

Incoming 1L: Is this heaven?
2L: No, it's Iowa. Although I can see why you're confused, as there are no jobs in either place.

#67: Unlike all the other cities in this country, in which the job market is thriving.

Please, continue with the Iowa Hate--it keeps the pretentious douchebags out.

Love,

federally clerking, Big Law working Iowa alum

@ 66:

5 INT and still get the W? He obviously sold his soul to the devil.

Must be some VERY STUPID or NAIVE applicants out there - the legal field is SINKING, run, don't walk to other fields like medicine/nursing with the same or higher pay for less time/money/studying expended.

I went to a T1 law school, graduated in the top 10% with 6 top grade awards, did a Major State Supreme Court clerkship and Federal District Court Clerkship in a major metro area and my Holland & Knight offer got yanked while on the federal district court clerkship, so I am now working for the federal government as an attorney for a mere 75k.

Run, do not walk, away from the law when good candidates are making a mere 75k in Chicago

I graduated from Iowa in 2008. This post is egregiously misinformed.

Iowa is a Top 30 school. It's within spitting distance of the Top 25, where it has remained for some time. Iowa places exceptionally well in all midwestern markets, but I also have friends in Biglaw in NYC, DC and LA. I know a TON of people who landed federal clerkships (including the (9th and the Fed Cir.); and that's if I leave out the state appellate clerks. Out-of-state tuition is a beast, but the school bends over backwards to give out-of-staters RA positions (admittedly, often to the lament of in-staters who are largely overlooked for such jobs), which qualifies them for in-state tuition for the remaining 2 years. Iowa City is a fun, lively Big Ten college town and I doubt anyone can beat IC for ribald debauchery on football saturdays. (GO HAWKS!). UI has one of the best med programs in the country, and THE best MFA program, not to mention a host of other highly ranked grad programs. If you think that IC is a one-horse town lacking sophisticated thought, you couldn't be more misinformed.

Summary: my football team will make yours dance like a motley crew of uncoordinated fat kids, my friends will beat your ass at beer pong, AND I'm employed (making 6 figures, not in Iowa, and with zero risk of getting LAIDOFFPWNED).

So suck it.

Oh, #71, a mere 75K! How shall you survive?? Best of luck with the food stamp application process.

#72 - I love you. Marry me. And in Iowa, male or female, we can make it happen.

71 - a mere $75K? whoa....how do you make rent? Do they provide food stamps for your gruel? Or rather, FOR your GRUEL?

73 - great minds, eh?

74

I'm with you 74/75. I knew people were right there with me on that one. - 73.

People from Iowa are incredibly defensive

#77 - what if people talked shit about where you live and work all the time? Would you be defensive?

72: Yes, Iowa's one of the greatest teams in the history of the Outback Bowl. You own the 4th or 5th team in the SEC every year. Ron Zook was your biotch (still is, I guess).

You want none of Charlie Strong's current defense, or #15.

Go Gators.

if you want a job in the midwest, then Iowa or any midwest school is a better choice than any school from the coasts that is outside of the T5.

73: I actually witnessed a group of 5 gay couples, having traveled across the country, show up in Iowa to be married after Varnum was handed down. I've never been more proud of Iowa.

77: The pretentious tone of this post was based either upon misinformation; or a conscious desire to gloss over the truth. Present an even-handed assessment, and I'll respond even-handedly.

79: I'm a girl. I don't know shit about football. We're undefeated and that's good enough for me. (But my friends WILL beat your ass at beer pong).

- 72

Why are gator fans so defensive 79?

A college town is a college town. It's only 3 years. If you can get your J.D. for less than 60k and enjoy some nice cheese curds, why not?

79 = typical UF grad. As a whole, they can best be described as unlikeable. For the guys, most likely stems from having small penises and no clue how to satisfy a woman. For the girls...well they are all ugly and have bigger penises than the guys.

77 - I'm a girl too. So lucky for us that we're in Iowa afterall! Iowa, you make me smile.

Keep the LOTR quotes coming. More hobbits, fewer lawyers!

Ok 48, so why don't you decrease the surplus by dropping out immediately? Or did you mean that now that you're in, you want others kept out?

Moron.

Actually, I want to keep stupid people, like you, out. Why is it okay for doctors to have high admissions standards but not lawyers? Where is it written that any dumbass with an application fee and a B.A. can be a lawyer? It is an elitist attitude, but when the hell did we decide that lawyers weren't supposed to be elite? - 48

88, given your ability to string together a sentence, I'm not certain that you should be the measure of "elite."

Also, LOL at the notion that ALL doctors meet high admission standards. Please. Are you 12?

88, if you're in competition with people with TTT JD degrees, maybe you're the one who is a TTT. Do you think people with top-tier MBAs worry about competition from University of Phoenix MBAs? In fact, the MBA degree is not a barrier to entry for anything, so it's incredible that there's no widespread unemployment among business school graduates given that their jobs are wide open for anyone to apply.

Douche.

Iowa sucks.

All law schools in Iowa are TTT.

Good luck getting a decent job in this economy from this toilet school.

"it's incredible that there's no widespread unemployment among business school graduates"

If you believe this, you're a douche. And a moron. And a retard.

Not 88

All American medical schools have higher admissions standards than whatever dumbass school you went to, or most law schools for that matter. And obviously some people like you are going to slip through the cracks, but that doesn't mean we can't cut law schools and raise the overall standards.

Law school applications & G's are up. Elie & Hos are down. ...While you mother fuckers bounce to this.

Top 30 school = TTT? Really?

Iowa = TTT

Job placement for biglaw ITE for this "Top 30" (LOL!) school = TTT

I agree with 91. People who go to U Iowa, or got rejected from it, may think that it's a top school. No one outside of Iowa or perhaps the contiguous states thinks that. Elie is a fat imbecile, I agree, but there really is no good reason for such an increase in the number of people seeking to obtain a largely-unmarketable degree that still has over 70 grand in debt attached to it (even assuming in-state, etc., but including meager living expenses). Law grads in general aren't doing well in terms of job prospects. That is doubly true for those from no-name schools.

93, Harvard MBA class of 2009 is over 90% employed already. How is this possible when the MBA is not a legal barrier to entry for anything? How come we don't hear Harvard MBAs whining about too many University of Phoenix MBA graduates and how the other schools need to be shut down.

94, anyone can go to a foreign medical school and become a US doctor after passing some tests, without taking any US medical school classes. It's much easier for a TTT foreigner or Carribean-trained American to be a doctor in the US than a lawyer. Your analogy is idiotic.

Okay, nearly 100 comments in and nobody has pointed out the obvious: An increase in Iowa applications doesn't necessarily mean more applicants to law school. It could just be that applicants are applying to more schools to be sure they get in SOMEWHERE, even if it's University of Iowa. Geez.

JaKe went to law school in Iowa. Now he is shoveling the shit off of my sidewalk.

Thoughts on this Lat? http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2174828

What do #97 & #98 base their rankings on? The Report is somehow right when it ranks your schools, but wrong when it ranks Iowa?

When I was job searching in 2007/2008, people on the coasts were all over Iowa law students -- not only because they're smart and go to a high ranking law school, but because they actually have a goddamn work ethic, rather than just a sense of entitlement. My friends who recently graduated from U of I experienced the same sentiment, despite the crappy economy. Yes, we have all been affected, but me and my recent grad friends are doing federal circuit clerkships and working "Big Law" jobs all over the country. So even if you base success purely on dollar signs, which most of these anti-Iowa assholes seemingly do, Iowa is still kicking ass.

90 -

If you're too stupid to understand that saturation at the bottom of the market puts downward pressure on salaries and employment at all levels, maybe you should go get a University of Phoenix MBA to explain basic economics to you. Or, if you're too much of a dick to sympathize with your friends at very good firms who have beel laid off because there is an unending stream of new lawyers lining up to replace them, then maybe you should just go screw yourself.

Anyone who turns down Harvard to go to Iowa is a moron. Period.

Yeah, that means YOU, #59!

check this site http://surf-wetsuits.com/

I'm a T10 BigLaw partner and an Iowa law grad. I don't think the education I received at Iowa was fantastic, but I enjoyed the experience, graduated with no debt and got a BigLaw job through OCI. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

103:

Why don't you go back to grade school and learn how to differentiate between and properly use pronouns.

103:

Why don't you go back to grade school and learn how to differentiate between and properly use pronouns.

HEY ELIE,

In case nobody has said it yet:

You didn't deserve to get into Harvard.

You only got into HLS because of the color of your skin.

GO FUCK YOURSELF, YOU UNDESERVEDLY ELITIST FUCKTARD

Honest question: What does TTT mean? Thanks!

104, if you're too stupid to understand that students with different abilities and degrees of different reputations are not competing in the same market, maybe you should get a University of Phoenix MBA to educate yourself. A Harvard JD with good skills is not replaceable by a Cooley JD regardless of whether Cooley graduates 100 or 10,000 students a year. University of Miami graduating 5x their class will not cause Cravath to hire more from them or IBM to want their graduates to work on their cases.

But since you seem to be competing in the same market with TTT graduates, I guess your case is a little different.

Elie,

Perhaps I can forgive the constant grammar and spelling mistakes. We have all made typos before, although yours are much more frequent than those of anyone I know.

What makes you truly insufferable, though, is that you share your idiotic opinions in almost every post you make. It is entirely clear you often have no real comprehension of the legal matters you write about. Whether you are whining about layoffs, bitching about declining salaries, turning a good Samaritan statute into a cause of action, or even disparaging Iowa's law school (I did not go there), it seems you have some ignorant opinion about each subject before you have a decent amount of facts in front of you. What makes this really bad is that your opinions are rarely well-thought out and are asinine. I have to wonder if you were (or are) a so-called megaposter on AutoAdmit.

It is a wonder how you ever actually practiced law. It is a larger wonder why Lat ever hired you.

But because we are stuck with you, at least for the time being, perhaps you should realize that your job is to present us, the legal community, with "news, gossip, and colorful commentary" in an interesting manner--it is neither to editorialize every post nor to show us all how ignorant and insipid you truly are.

Iowa kicking ass? LOL!

Maybe for the top 10% + LR...maybe.

According to Iowa's own financial aid website, the average law student graduating in 2009 had $81,735 in debt.

Good luck paying this off while toiling away in some Midwest shitlaw shop (where most Iowa grads end up) making $40k/yr.

99 -

Yet another idiot. Admittance of foreign doctors is how the states try to pull an end run around the AMA. The AMA, as it should, attempts to keep a stranglehold on the supply of doctors, but the states want to reduce medical fees, so they let these doctors in to increase competition. It's not the AMA's fault that these foreign doctors are able to practice. It's good for you and me, and especially insurance companies, but it's bad for American doctors, the AMA's constituency. I want the ABA to take a page out of their playbook and start sticking up for me.

I'm sorry, #109. Me and my friends -- oops, I mean, my friends and I, are far more successful and happy than you can ever hope to be.

115, so you want the ABA to follow the policies of the AMA that you admit are not working and are being circumvented easily. In the unlikely event that your policies work, you're okay that it will screw over the rest of society with higher costs.

Wow you must be a blast at parties.

Jesus 112, you have just won idiot of the year award. We're all lawyers. I am not going to sit here and explain macroeconomics to you, but trust both me and every non-stupid person in the universe when we say there is a trickle-down effect to market saturation at a certain level. The lawyers at every firm (with the notable exception of Wachtell, the one firm with true luxury cache in the economic sense) are affected by the salaries of all the other lawyers in the nation to a certain degree. I promise.

107 = lying

What a bunch of defensive unemployable losers! Nobody buy this sh**. Iowa blows. 103 is a meth junkie.

Iowa is one of the most overrated law school in the T30. If you look at its average LSAT and GPA, you are left scratching your head. I think their mean LSAT and GPA are below the bottom 25 hash mark at most of the T25. It's nice of them to say they have a holistic application process, but doesn't everyone? If you look at half the schools in the T30, you see a diverse range of student experiences. Iowa is just unimpressive. I expect most schools saw a jump in applications this year.

118, okay you're right. When Cooley opened its new campus in Ann Arbor, that really caused a "trickle-down effect" that affected the salaries and job security of the associates at Cravath. Cause you know, Cravath could always replace their associates with Cooley graduates at lower salaries.

Similarly, when University of Phoenix at Boise began to grant MBAs, that really saturated the market and affected the salaries and job security of the Harvard MBAs at Goldman Sachs. I promise.

It still amazes me how many people hear "University of Iowa" and think of some backwater aggie department in the middle of a cornfield. I did my undergrad there and it was a main contender for law school.

The University itself is a preeminent liberal arts school, with former faculty like Kurt Vonnegut and TC Boyle (bar-none, the world's best creative writing program). The Physics building is named after Van Allen, who discovered the "Van Allen" radiation belts that were the only impediment to traveling to the moon for a while, because he taught there. The Fine Arts department has a museum with a collection that puts most universities to shame - housing originals by Picasso and Pollack that it bought before they were worth anything and are now priceless.

Iowa City is a great town, too. By some data (wikipedia) it is the most educated zip code in the world, owing to the concentration of degrees in such a small area. On any friday or saturday night you can go to the ped mall and see tens of thousands of students dominate the downtown scene.

Oh, and the football team is 9-0, which is better than any school you went to, because your school sucks.

98, 114: If you honestly believe this, then your perception of Iowa is the least of my concerns. Iowa grads place well, and they don't need to be top 10% to do it. I'm certainly proof of this "phenomenon." I turned down multiple (not shitlaw) offers before settling on the path I took.

- 72

117 -

The policies of the AMA absolutely are working, the average salary of a doctor crushes that of a lawyer. The states just try and mitigate it to a certain degree. And you're damn right I want to "society to be screwed over with higher costs." It's called wanting to get paid more, everybody does it, and it always takes money from somewhere. That's how this little thing called capitalism works, genius.

10, as an engineering grad, I can safely say that job prospects are really good.

I graduated from one of the state schools in the Midwest. I had some minor scholarships, but even without $20,000.
http://consider.k-state.edu/tuitionandcosts/
http://www.financialaid.iastate.edu/faq/costofattendance.php
http://nebraska.edu/current-and-prospective-students/tuition-and-cost-of-attendance.html

Unlike law, prestige is much less of a factor in undergraduate engineering degrees since programs have to meet base accreditation requirements.

Salaries are high enough that you could pay off loans for all tuition and living expenses in less than 5-10 years. See below. In my opinion, the salaries listed below are low, because I made 10k more than starting out several years ago.
"Salaries in 2008 for new grads: B.S.E.E. received starting offers averaging $59,110; M.S.E.E. grads averaged $70,630." http://www.engineersalary.com/Electrical.asp
"Starting salaries in 2008 for B.S. grads in biomedical engineering averaged $52,530 and M.S. candidates were offered $65,800. " http://www.engineersalary.com/Biomedical.asp

125, please understand the difference between normal capitalism and rent-seeking.

Iowa being in the top 30 shows how much of a joke the US News really is.

123:

Are you out of f***ing mind? The University of Iowa itself "...is a preeminent liberal arts school?"

ROFLMAO!

The undergraduates from that place are clueless, provincial morons.

Go to Iowa Law if you want to work in Iowa. Go to Minnesota if you want to work in Minny. Go to Illinois if you want to work in Chicago. Go to WashU if you want to work in STL. Iowa likes to think it can place people elsewhere, it doesn't do a very good job.

127 - Ah, a non-moron. It is sort of rent-seeking, but frankly, I'm fine with it. Every union in the world is essentially doing the same thing, why can't ours?

118 - I will try to explain this to you one last time, in simple terms. Start by taking the bottom half of the lawyers out back and shooting them. Suddenly, there is a huge demand for the ones just above that level, so the fees the market will bear for their work product skyrocket. The midsize firms they use to work have to give them raises to keep them. The lawyers at the level above that, Biglaw, could suddenly make more money in midlaw, so Biglaw has to give us all raises to keep us. You get it, dumbass? Since you can't shoot the existing lawyers, the way to do this is to cut back on the number of new ones. Figure it out, douche.

Last year's 87.4% employed-at-graduation rate may be artificially low. We have an unfortunate tradition at the College of not tracking the doings of our grads. The same will likely be true this year.

Of course, recruiting is hurting just like everywhere else. But Iowa students are surprisingly resourceful (if not largely self-reliant). We're used to scouring the country for jobs. Not having all the employers in your backyard helps with that.

Regarding the question of cost, Mr. Mystal is likely unaware of the large percentage of out-of-state students at Iowa who receive in-state tuition and scholarship. I'd be willing to bet that, for most students, an Iowa J.D. is a better investment than many other top-twenty-five schools. Iowa grads recoup that investment relatively quickly, whether or not they've secured a $160k starting salary. (As for me, starting at $160k, I'll simply enjoy the extra disposable income.)

Of course, none of this is an endorsement for higher enrollment. But, as many comments have already noted, nothing in this post suggests higher enrollment. And that's really what you're worried about, Mr. Mystal (at least if you want your argument to make any sense).

"Iowa likes to think it can place people elsewhere, it doesn't do a very good job."

Exactly. Iowa is good if you want BIGCORNLAW.

End of thread.

Woops, mean to address that second part to 122 - 131

132, when I hear/read employed-at-graduation I think employed in the legal field in a permanent full-time job. When a law school reports employed-at-graduation they think paid job. Slinging hash at the truckstop in Council Bluffs is not employment for which I need a law degree.

131, didn't I already tell you that you're right? Your sound reasoning is why Harvard MBAs, who are almost as knowledgeable about economics as you, are all clamoring for the AACSB to shut down all the TTT MBA programs and also for all business jobs to be restricted to MBA holders.

Right, 135, because ambiguities in reporting are a problem that singularly affects Iowa Law; and not, say, every single other law school, everywhere, ever.

129: The "provincial morons" wandering around the Iowa campus are much, much hotter than you are. Those homemade, corn-fed Iowa boys fill out their shirts nicely (your lovehandles don't count). And your football team will not - NOT - beat Iowa (9-0!!).

-123.

Kids are not heeding my sage advice. In this economy, a peer firm has its pick of the litter. There are many brilliant laterals with impressive credentials and a year or two of training. Personally, I think there are enough decently qualified laterals that hiring from law schools is imprudent. In this economy, the firm will only hire from the top 5 law schools (schools like Cornell, UVA, Georgetown and Penn don't make it). In order to be considered for employment, you will have to be at least in the top 3% and have law review. Once you satisfy this criteria, you may be hired to the firm where you will have about a less than 1% chance of making partner. The odds are against you, and always will be. Law students have no leverage. Last week, I went to an event at at top school (in the NYC area) and had to fend off desperate students seeking my business card. We now control the market and law graduates will be at our mercy. Do you still want to incur a six figure debt to live a miserable life? Face it kids, the dream is dead. Go become a refrigeration specialist, mechanic or plumber. You will live a better life.

I hereby give up. You are inpenetrably stupid. Lack of an MBA is not an entrance barrier to anything, therefore cutting half the business schools would not have nearly the same affect because those jobs would be filled by the exact same people , only with just their undergrad business degrees. Elite young bankers don't even take time out to bother with an MBA anymore, there's no real reason to. Anyway, I'm done explaining high school economics to you. Good luck with the whole going through life stupid thing.

11 FTW. The government has subsidized student debt. Why? It's the same reason the government does most of what it does. It's making payments to its owners - in this case the academic class. Once you understand it you'll get Krugman and the NYTimes and $ billions in global warming research dollars annually.

However, the wheels are coming off the wagons and all those JD profs with degrees in Cross Dressing Multicultural Femin0- Marxist Post-Modern Transgender Law are realizing the're about to become permanently unemployable. Obama is desperately trying to inflate a commodities bubble but it'll only work for awhile if it works at all. You see at some point, the market, which is nature, always wins out.

I take it 135 regrets doling out for his J.D.

I'll take my eggs over easy with that hash, thanks.

Man, I meant to type impenetrably. A line loses all it's punch when there's a typo, especially one that looks like an actual error. Oh well

123/138: Cute, corn-fed Iowa boys FTW!!!

138 makes a good point. You'd never guess, but the people at Iowa are really, abnormally attractive. Male and female (which is perfect for a gay marriage state). Like I've gone out in New York, DC, San Diego... but downtown Iowa City on a Saturday night is like a live Abercrombie catalogue.

So while Biglaw hiring is shit across the board, your best hopes at Iowa law are going to be a respectable firm in Des Moines. But on the other hand, going to Iowa substantially increases your chances of finding a REALLY CUTE Iowa trophy spouse. This should replace hiring data on Iowa's admission brochures.

Why does the number of applicants matter? What matters is the quality of the students.

So here is the ranking of the top 40 schools by LSAT and GPA scores of incoming students. Where is Iowa? Not in the list.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2009student_quality.shtml

139 speaks the truth. As a Biglaw associate, I can tell you that the "endgame" (i.e., partnership at a top firm) sucks. The pay is fantastic, but you give up some of the best years of your life, are more likely to get a divorce, and you'll end up a bitter, pretentious douche bag (see, e.g., 139).

Don't believe me? Consider this - even when Biglaw was booming and salaries were skyrocketing, the overwhelming majority of Biglaw associates hated their high-paying "dream" jobs. When asked about their careers, nearly every associate I knew said, "I just need to work here for a few more years, save up some cash, get some experience, and get the hell out of here." The vast majority of those who didn't express such sentiments were utter douchebags.

Now that the economy has tanked, the refrain has changed to, "I just need to stay here until the economy improves and I can go in-house." So, in both good and bad times, the message is, "**** Biglaw."

A little late, but I have comment on 71, which represents why recent law grads are perceived as a bunch of self-entitled pricks. ONLY 75K IN CHICAGO!? Oh, the HORROR.

Seriously, in this economy, 75K is a decent amount of money. I live in Chicago and you can live very comfortably on that amount, assuming of course you weren't some jackass who decided to buy a $500,000 townhouse in Lincoln Park your first year out of law school.

Also, 75K working the federal government, i.e., 40 hours a week total, is very reasonable. Oh yeah, you also have that little thing called job security.

Grow up. Just because you went to law school and did well does not mean you are entitled to a six-figure paycheck.

Instead of reducing the number of law schools, they should require students to place in the top 50% of the class after 1L year. Those who can't don't deserve a job, and will not get one, anyway, so schools would be doing them a favor.

Ricky.

Stanzi.

Sucks.

The only people who complain about biglaw are people who never worked in sh*t law for 1/3 the money doing the same work and working nearly identical hours. The grass in no greener at a smaller firm. For the most part, lifestyle firms are a myth.

Iowa grads rarely get biglaw. That 60% more people are begging to go to a TTT like Iowa is a disaster. Sh*t law wages have been stagnant for decades already. Small firms lawyers are making less adjusted for inflation than they have in years and years.

The legal industry hasnt even managed to grow at the same rate as GDP for 30 years. Our industry grows at half the rate of overall GDP. Those of you who think this is a golden business are just clueless.

That is, schools should drop students that are in the bottom half of the class. oops.

-149

103 ---- people who went to Iowa and think they have "biglaw" jobs do not; no real biglaw (skadden, cravath, wachtell, gibson dunn, latham, etc) firm would recruit there. Baker & McKenzie and Day Pitney are not biglaw firms; they are garbage. And no one who actually has an appellate clerkship calls it a "federal circuit clerkship," unless they actually work at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. idiot. Further, no one who goes to a good us news-ranked school cites their school's ranking; people barely on the cusp of being at even-marginal schools come up with "T25" and other such assorted trash.

153:

I know for a FACT that Skadden has recruited out of Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, and other Big 10 law schools. Get your facts straight you dolt.

You're a perfect example of the douche bag I was talking about.

-147

153:

I know for a FACT that Skadden has recruited out of Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, and other Big 10 law schools. Get your facts straight you dolt.

You're a perfect example of the douche bag I was talking about.

-147

I could give 2 shits what any of you anonymous hacks say about any school - I'm getting $160k/year. At a firm that has laid off no one. Who gives a fuck whether I went to Yale or Iowa or fucking Cooley? I'd bet all of those '08 grads who went to Latham are glad then went to a REAL school and a REAL biglaw firm, right 153, you insufferable teabagging tool?

The pitchforks are out in this thread.

I didn't even know Iowa had a law school. what a joke. I love how usnews puts these bulllshit schools on the list to make it "even"....come on, you cant tell me that Iowa makes better lawyers than some cutthroat at cardozo or fordham...GIVE ME A BREAK

go eat corn

153 (aka jackass):

Are you really going to question someone's credentials because they wrote "federal circuit clerkship" on a f'ing blog? You're an idiot.

158:

You are yet another shining example of a classic douche bag who gives the rest of us lawyers a bad name. And "go eat corn?" Is that an insult? LOL.

-A corn-eating m'fer

111:

Fuck you.

161 - very profound; you must have graduated from Iowa....

I'm laughing at 153. To include Latham in that class of firms is an absolute joke. Dude, I'll kick your ass in court any day of the week.

Iowa = TTT

That is all.

Now, GO EAT SOME CORN, BOY!

It's sad that most of the people here are just out to take digs at a school for where it's located. I have a hard time understanding how they're commenting with such scathing comments when UI is still a great school, 25/26 by the current count. I just looked at their faculty and they have Hovenkamp, the national expert in Antitrust, not to mention Kurtz in property, Weston in Human rights, and Baldus--- the man who made history by challenging the death penalty under the 8th Amendment--- to name a few. I hate to be contentious, but this just sounds like sour grapes from kids who went to schools where they paid a lot more for a less prestigious degree

Corn tastes better than you lady's shart, 164.

165 - that the problem with Iowa - it may have a good faculty but is not prestigious. Maybe it is location, but the reality is that V10 firms, such as the one at which I am a partner, do not think of UI when looking for top quality candidates.

165 = Amen, I didn't go to Iowa, much less the Midwest, but schools don't end up in the top of the rankings by accident. It seems a lot of unemployed graduates from schools elsewhere have a lot of time to check this blog and try to tear you down

This thread has some funny comments. How is approving of two men pounding each other in the ass a sign of sophistication?

I forget, is it the corn side or the rice side that's the crispiest? Perhaps a UI grad can remind us....

@ 167: Your loss. I don't know why you don't think of their as above the lower halves of schools elsewhere--- there is clearly a separation between the students who got scholarships and excelled there vs. the kids who got into Ivies and finished at the bottom fo their class. Coastal elitism just breeds snobs, not hard working, great lawyers

If you are not admitted to a preeminent peer law school, cease seeking to become a lawyer.

If you do not know the difference between a preeminent peer law firm and a non-preeminent, non-peer law firm then you will likely not be admitted to a preeminent peer law firm and should immediately end your bid to become a lawyer.

@ 167: Your loss. I don't know why you don't think of their top grads as above the lower halves of schools elsewhere--- there is clearly a separation between the students who got scholarships and excelled there vs. the kids who got into Ivies and finished at the bottom of their classes. Coastal elitism just breeds snobs, not hard working, great lawyers

@ 167: Your loss. I don't know why you don't think of their top grads as above the lower halves of schools elsewhere--- there is clearly a separation between the students who got scholarships and excelled there vs. the kids who got into Ivies and finished at the bottom of their classes. Coastal elitism just breeds snobs, not hard working, great lawyers

165 is spot on. If you look through the rosters at V10 firms, you see very few (if any) Iowa grads. Yet, those firms still get the best clients and the best work.

@167: whose loss?

172: I love that there are douches like you in the world. It means that when some schmuck gets hit by a bus that maybe, just maybe, it's one of you douchebags. Sweet shades assclown

The vitriol in this thread, like most things in life, comes from Elie being an idiot. Yes, there are way too many law schools. The ABA should cut half of them. If they were to do that, though, Iowa makes the cut under virtually any standard. This post should be be about anyone applying to Cooley, or the fact that Cooley exists in the first place. I will now go to bed and picture hot, legally married, Iowa lesbians. Good night

172 definitely works for one of the two douchiest firms by far: Latham or Morgan Lewis

I didn't go to Iowa, but I can promise you that I'm the only actual lawyer who spent all day at a mediation today to have read this crap after drinking post-work with the mediator. You couldn't pay me enough money to do what you retards do.

-A real lawyer who does not spend all day reviewing documents, went to a midwest law school, and graduated '08.

179 - a f*ing mediation? BFD! I spent all day arguing motions in limine and have an opening statement to present in the morning. This is for levity purposes only. Try a case sometime you douche.

Everyone cool out. If you like an unpleasant odor, Iowa vs. New York City is win-win.

175: I don't usually hand out accolades, but you're right--- 165 is spot on. It's those firms' loss that they don't hire hardworking kids who make hay while the sun (and often moon) shines. Kids from the coast are too accustomed to entitlement, while midwest kids will turn legal lead into gold for half the price. Enjoy unemployment, low-ranking coastal grads

Commenters #176 and #178 clearly are angry at and frustrated by truth contained in my original post; both of these posters were clearly rejected from preeminent peer law schools and are slowly realizing that they will never work for a preeminent peer law firm.

Incidentally, I have an outstanding offer at my Father's preeminent peer law firm. And it only because I work hard.

Oh, your father. Sounds like it. Douche.

WHY DOES YOUR OFFICE SMELL LIKE FARTS?

183 is funny. She's just trying to piss people off. If you don't want to please her, just ignore her.

Jesus, 184, do they not have irony in Iowa?

Hmmm.

Outstanding offer = great, good job

... at my father's peer law firm.

Right. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt if you didn't have an account and gone on to choose a terrible picture. I can't help openly hoping 176 gets his wish;

Hmmm.

Outstanding offer = great, good job

... at my father's peer law firm.

Right. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt if you didn't have an account and gone on to chose a terrible picture. I can't help openly hoping 176 gets his wish;

Commenter #188 (and #189--moron) obviously failed to work sufficiently hard in life, has therefore been relegated to receiving his education from a non-preeminent, non-peer law school, and is quite bitter about it.

I am sorry that my uncanny success due to hard work reminds you of your failures.

183:

There are undoubtedly far too many law schools, lawyers, law students, and kids who want to go to law school. At the risk of sounding like you, I think the legal profession should be more selective.

However, Iowa is a good school. Is it Harvard or Yale? No, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a good school by just about any reasonable standard.

The "T5 or bust" mentality is not only elitist, it is extremely obnoxious. Individuals with class do not brag about their alma maters and scoff at other schools, but insecure, former nerds do.

PS - I pray, for your sake, that your profile picture is some lame attempt at humor. You look like a nerd who thinks that he is a hot shot because he did a few lines of blow and has a decent paycheck. If you are going to try to mask the fact that you are a tool, do not go with the pink shirt, glasses, and slicked-back hair outfit. You look like a gay porn star from 1986 (not that there's anything wrong with that).

191 - seriously - don't even respond to 183/190. She is just pulling your strings. Don't give her the time of day. She wins when you do that.

Iowa is a good school, just like the Philadelphia Phillies are a good ball team--both are defective and unsatisfactory when push comes to shove.

Furthermore, Commenter #191, you misunderstand. I am not bragging about my alma mater--in fact, I never mentioned it by name--but rather pointing out that my prestigious education and obscene wealth render me superior to under-educated paupers like your.

Okay, let's try this again, I'll be clearer -

Dear 184 -

Jake Emeritus is a character, an ironic representation of an over-entitled recent law grad who professes eltist views about work ethic and prestige in spite of the fact that he has never actually earned or done anything. It is all a big joke, something commonly called a "troll" on the internet, although I must admit, Jake is an awfully amusing troll. By failing to realize this painfully obvious fact for this amount of time, you have single handedly destroyed the reputation of Iowa Law for years to come. Congratulations. Now leave the internet before you hurt yourself

I think I did Science Olympiad with 191.

"In any event, a 62% increase in law school applications at Iowa probably tells you all you need to know about the future of legal salaries. It’s not pretty."

^^This would be true...if schools started admitting and graduating more students. If anything at all can be generalized from this increase, it's that more students will be rejected.

194:

Unless you regularly read the comments you have no way of knowing that 193 is a troll/fiction. He just seems like a massive douche bag.

197, none of those three traits are not mutually exclusive.

JaKe is fictional, AND he is a troll, AND he is a douchebag.

Hope that helps.

Oops, meant to say, none of those three traits are mutually exclusive. Sorry.

--198

check this site http://surf-wetsuits.com/

157 FTW

I want to do international law. There is just so much suffering in this world. Would Iowa be a good place for this education?

I didn't think this was possible, but JaKe just ownt' half the readers of this thread.

My main gripe with Iowa Law is the lack of big time scholars. Yes, good work does come out of there. However, I rarely see their professors rank in SSRN downloads or citations. Other schools in the T25 do a much better job. Iowa oversells and under performs. I actually feel bad for the students who get duped into going there.

To all the NYC d-bags ragging on the Midwest, Chicago is one of the greatest cities in the world. Unfortunately, Iowa doesn't place well in Chicago.

145 is right on! Forget the rankings. Girls at Iowa are shockingly hot, and I am told the dudes are too.

The same kids who went to Fordham/Cardozo because they thought they'd get a NY supermodel AND a flashy corporate career could have gone to Iowa for a more prestigious degree and a cuter date.

Hey let's all make fun of how backwards Iowa is! Iowa... the state that single handedly nominated our first black president (who was leading in the polls until Iowa?).

Keno Davis is from Iowa!!!

I went to the U of Iowa law school and loved it. My professors were brilliant and so were my classmates. I felt both challenged and supported every day. I barely made the top third of my class, and I'm certain I never would have been a contender for a clerkship or a Biglaw job. As was evidenced by many of my friends, however, "Biglaw" jobs respected and hired Iowa law grads who were more academically successful than I. My friends scattered all over - some stayed in Iowa, others went to Biglaw jobs on both coasts, to Chicago, to Minneapolis, to circuit clerkships all over the country. I stayed in Iowa City to practice at a small firm.

Of all my Iowa law friends, I'm almost positive that I have among the lowest income (roughly 50K per year) and do the least "prestigious" work (criminal defense, immigration and family law). But I'm also by far the happiest person I know. I actually enjoy and look forward to going to work. My cases are fascinating, I feel like I genuinely help people every day, and I love the community in which I live.

The main thing I took away from reading this largely vitriolic thread is this: If the life I live is that of a failure, I will happily continue to fail every day for the rest of my life.

In NYC, Cardozo will take you a lot farther than Iowa, "prestige" notwithstanding. Nationwide it may be more of a wash.

153 - just for the record, whoever you were responding to was (probably) talking about the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. I know of at least one person we placed there in the last 2 years. Plenty of other federal and state clerkships too, would you like to hear all of the appropriate titles of those courts, idiot?

As an Iowa law school grad I can say that the school does overstate employment numbers, but I find it hard to believe that every other school doesn't do that. I have friends going to Jones Day, Baker & McKenzie, Latham & Watkins, and the list goes on. Sure, when I chose to go there I knew it wasn't the best school around. But they give a ton of full ride scholarships to out of state students, so I am coming out with virtually no debt and a job at a firm in Minneapolis. All the people I keep in touch with from law school are employed in NY, VA, Chicago, Minneapolis, KC and one who wanted to stay in Iowa. I am happy with my choice because I think it was a smart one. Smarter than all the people coming out with a delayed start date and nearing $200K in debt.

I went to law school in the Midwest (not Iowa) but am from the East Coast originally and have no respect whatsoever for the state of Iowa. I believe the legal market revolves around NY and DC and I don't think anyone should go to Iowa unless they are from Iowa.

But anyway, my story is this- I was on my way to class one morning during my first year of law school, and another student in a BMW cut me off and took the best spot in the parking lot. She got out and gave me a mean look- she was a blond girl in her late 20s who was probably attractive at some point but already had deteriorating looks. She may or may not have been self-aware of the deterioration. So she continued to stare at me- like she was waiting for me to congratulate her for cutting me off- Then I saw she had Iowa tags.

So I said, "Jesus Christ, I didn't think they even had BMWs in Iowa- well don't take my spot again, cracker."

I never saw her in that spot again.

Wow, 212, you really showed her. And made a case for your lack of respect for an entire state at the same time. Double whammy.

153 -- you are uninformed. My classmates (Iowa 2008) accepted offers at Skadden, Latham, Sidley, Kirkland, Covington, Gibson Dunn, and Mayer Brown, among other biglaw firms.

194 - Jake (or his character) is actually still in law school, slaving away on law review like a tool, and working part-time at his daddy's law firm (probably Sullivan & Cromwell)...at least that is what his previous posts suggest

Random racist comment

Why is elie hating on Iowa when so many of his buddies have cornrows?

Elie, you fat walrus, I can understand ripping on t3 schools that are every bit as expensive as Harvard, but Iowa is a good school and there probably is a decent local market for its grads. I think the world could probably use a few more Iowa grads who actually end up doing legal work and a few less Harvard affirmative action admits who end up wasting the opportunity given them to write blog posts full of basic grammatical errors and typos. In addition, the east coast snobbery is totally unnecessary. There are people who choose not to spend 75% of their net income renting a 300 square foot box of despair in Manhattan. And they may not be entirely wrong.

At the risk of sounding cliche, the people who yell the loudest generally have the least to say. I've never heard anyone try sound hard to convince others that their school is "a great school" unless there was some defect. And this goes for, at the least, all the top 20 schools. I've never heard anyone have to justify going to any school in the top 20. If you're happy with where you are/went, fine. But there is seriously no need to defend your decision on an anonymous blog. That behavior really just raises yet another lame saying: you know, that one about protesting too much?

At the risk of sounding cliche, the people who yell the loudest generally have the least to say. I've never heard anyone try sound hard to convince others that their school is "a great school" unless there was some defect. And this goes for, at the least, all the top 20 schools. I've never heard anyone have to justify going to any school in the top 20. If you're happy with where you are/went, fine. But there is seriously no need to defend your decision on an anonymous blog. That behavior really just raises yet another lame saying: you know, that one about protesting too much?

218-19,

I went to a T10 school, but think that Iowa is a reasonably good school at a reasonable price for in-state students. I doubt its students who stay in Iowa have to waste time convincing people it's a great school. Most people in Iowa probably don't give a rat's ass.

--217

Suck my ass, Mystal, you obese, race bating, white baby killing, WALRUS!

217,

Perhaps my point wasn't clear: there is no need to anonymously defend the greatness of your school. Doing so makes it appear, at least in my mind, as though the place is somehow defective because, again, most students/alums at good schools don't feel the need to defend their school's greatness. I have no opinion of Iowa (although I do know people in the MFA program). Frankly, you could insert any school name you'd like into my comments.

That is all.

-219-220 (sorry for the double post)

Jews stole my money and my breakfast burrito.

State schools are going to have a surge in law school apps because of the economy. As someone posted earlier on does it make sense to go to a top 20 private school at $40K a yr when you can get into a top 25 state school at possibly less than half that cost. A better indicator of how the economy is impacting law school admissions is to review the applications at private schools outside the top tier. If applications to these schools have also increased then I would agree that you have a population of college graduates who are confused beyond help.

Lat, please just fire Elie now. He does not think through anything that he posts, he is a terrible writer, and has lowered the level of discourse on this site dramatically.

So his post is that in the middle of a down economy applications are up at a respected law school that has relatively low tuition, in a location with a very low cost of living. Wow, that is quite a scoop.

Do you think that Elie is dumb enough to have thought that this is newsworthy or do you think he was just looking for an opportunity to act like an elitist prick? Either way, he should be fired.

Here's the skinny folks (Iowa grad in the house). Iowa is a law school in crisis. The state has slashed the money going into the law school, and the College of Law (and its on-the-way-out Dean) has been unable to tap the alumni for significant cash.

We lost three of our best, young faculty this year (probably because we couldn't pay them...really, who bolts for Indiana, WashU, and Lewis & Clark unless its for some extra lettuce?).

Recruiting was a bloodbath from what I hear this year. Not a single Phoenix firm came to OCI. Phoenix has been an Iowa stronghold for decades (the former managing partner of Snell & Wilmer was an Iowa grad). Ouch.

Now, as far as US News is concerned, Iowa has always been a very straight shooter. They never inflated, or "gamed" the system. The Admins felt that they were above this behavior. Well, with employment numbers dwindling, I'm sure that Dean Jones and Collins Byrd got together in the admissions building and decided that we were going to fall into the 40s without some gaming. That's what is going on, I can almost guarantee it.

Moral of the story:

For non-Iowa grads: Flame away. We don't care what you think...we knew what we were getting into when we signed up.

For Iowa grads: Open you damned pocketbooks. Sadly, the value of our degrees is in part dependent on where we rank in US News. So, as Iowa goes, so goes the value of your degree (at least in part). This is particularly true of recent grads.

You want a top-notch dean? They don't come for free. You want great, new faculty (other than Hovenkamp, who is ugly, overrated, and has bad breath)? Well, we best pay the big bucks. So, spread the word.

Iowa's application surge is directly related to the recent success of it's football team. Lots of law students are looking for 3 more years of enjoyable undergraduate type experiences and Iowa can give them that or better. With Joe Paterno on his last legs, many prospective law students no longer see Penn/Penn State as a viable option for those who want to have a Big 10 winner on their resume.

David,

I thought you said that Des Moines is in Indiana?

Nigel

Elie,

No one likes you.

206 that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Iowa Law is more overrated than losing your virginity

226 -- answer: Indiana is ranked higher and is, at least marginally, considered a better overall university. WashU is top 20 and as a university is in a league entirely beyond Iowa's reach. Lewis & Clark...maybe prof wanted to get stoned and teach at the same time?

THEIR MEDIAN LSAT IS 161

THAT'S TOP 25???

Are law students at Iowa as ridiculously lucky as the football team is?

I'm going to tell all you fearful, chicken-sh&t dorks what you need to know:

#1, Iowa is a great law school if you can get in-state tuition, but too many kids are getting suckered into law school, from the 4th tier to HLS, SLS, and YLS.

But to my point - whatever you are doing, wherever you are working, GET SKILLS. There is a never-ending supply of over-achieving dorks willing to burn the midnight oil for bonuses or partnership prospects or what have you. You will easily get exhausted if you try to keep up against an endless wave of law grads, year after year, trying to be the most super associate they can be.

Your only hope in this profession is to become skilled at some area of the law, whatever it is. If you are stuck doing nothing but doc review, then pick up a pro bono bankruptcy, divorce or landlord/tenant case. Or if you're stuck doing some obscure transactions work, commit to learning some aspect of the process inside out.

Being "bright" and "hard working" is not going to secure your future in this field. You will need skills to maintain a career in law. If there's no way you can get skills in big law, you have to leave. Take the hit now and start your real education as a lawyer. Because you will be forced to leave Biglaw eventually anyway. You risk-averse, scared dorks hanging on to your miserable biglaw associate jobs for every last paycheck are really hurting yourselves in the long run. You will soon be unemployed and unemployable if you do not have an expertise in some area of the law.

Iowa Fucking City. WELCOME TO THE LION'S DEN.

My guess is that 231 has experienced neither.

I'm going to tell all you fearful, chicken-sh&t dorks what you need to know:

#1, Iowa is a great law school if you can get in-state tuition, but too many kids are getting suckered into law school, from the 4th tier to HLS, SLS, and YLS.

But to my point - whatever you are doing, wherever you are working, GET SKILLS. There is a never-ending supply of over-achieving dorks willing to burn the midnight oil for bonuses or partnership prospects or what have you. You will easily get exhausted if you try to keep up against an endless wave of law grads, year after year, trying to be the most super associate they can be.

Your only hope in this profession is to become skilled at some area of the law, whatever it is. If you are stuck doing nothing but doc review, then pick up a pro bono bankruptcy, divorce or landlord/tenant case. Or if you're stuck doing some obscure transactions work, commit to learning some aspect of the process inside out.

Being "bright" and "hard working" is not going to secure your future in this field. You will need skills to maintain a career in law. If there's no way you can get skills in big law, you have to leave. Take the hit now and start your real education as a lawyer. Because you will be forced to leave Biglaw eventually anyway. You risk-averse, scared dorks hanging on to your miserable biglaw associate jobs for every last paycheck are really hurting yourselves in the long run. You will soon be unemployed and unemployable if you do not have an expertise in some area of the law.

Don't meth with Iowa

Don't meth with Iowa

154, 159 and whoever else is took issue with 153:

If you've ever worked at Skadden, you know that people that went to "non-core" recruiting schools were one-off hires and are seen as haveing questionable skills by their associate peers.

I question no one's credentials due to their use of "federal circuit clerkships;" I question the veracity of their claim to 1) be such a clerk, and 2) know classmates at Iowa that are similarly situated.

As for the claim that the Iowa defender "was referencing Us Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit" clerkships, that's ludicrous. First, Iowa does not have an overabundance of Federal Circuit clerks, and second, the claim the Iowa defender was making was clearly aimed at demonstrating that a significatn number of grads were in federal appellate clerkships generally.

Hey Elie, instead of ragging on Midwest schools why don't you write an article that talks about the root of the problem? Where is the ABA? Where are the State bar associations? They should be the first groups to step up and try to lower the supply of lawyers.

Another dumb as rocks article. As 17 noted, when the economy is bad and there are no jobs for the masses of liberal arts majors, the new graduates go to grad school to put off entering the real world until the economy gets better.

I got into iowa at a time when it was in the top 25 or so, and didn't go there because the amount of money they offered was not enough. To all those bashing iowa - wasn't iowa city ranked one of the best small cities to live in?

242 - schools, the ABA, the bar associations, and the federal subsidation of student lending are the culprits. The root of the problem is the fed spending, however. When fed tries to influence a market, inevitably their intervention causes a bubble. The schools and lenders then manuever to see how they can get in on this "free money" and everything gets thrown out of balance. It is far more effective and inefficient for the feds to directly give money (not loans, credit or promises) to those it is seeking to help, but to otherwise stay out of the market. And I'm a liberal democrat, btw

242 - schools, the ABA, the bar associations, and the federal subsidation of student lending are the culprits. The root of the problem is the fed spending, however. When fed tries to influence a market, inevitably their intervention causes a bubble. The schools and lenders then manuever to see how they can get in on this "free money" and everything gets thrown out of balance. It is far more effective and efficient for the feds to directly give money (not loans, credit or promises) to those it is seeking to help, but to otherwise stay out of the market. And I'm a liberal democrat, btw

how about doing some actual research. What are the rates of application increases for grad/professional school?

compare increases in applications to cheaper schools (like iowa) with pathertically expensive schools (like Wash U)?

If you don't like Iowa law school, then don't apply. You probably couldn't get in anyways.

I graduated from Iowa. All my friends and I have great jobs (meaning well-paying) in large cities across the nation. For those of you who claim we shouldn't have been able to get good jobs outside of Iowa/the midwest, it sounds like you are bitter because we came to your cities and took jobs away from you. But don't worry, we can hire you to clean our toilets.

Incredible that these kids don't get the message: there is a massive oversupply of J.D.s in this country and it's going to get worse, not better. Unless you get into a T10 school (and can afford BIG tuition) or have a parent with a successful practice to guarantee your employment, forget about law!

Since the schools don't give a rats ass about their students' post-graduation employment prospects and the ABA will accredit anything and everything, the only answer is for more states to follow the examples of CA and DE by lowering bar passage rates. No state should pass more than 50% of its bar examinees. Passing only 25% would be even better. Not only would it protect the public from dopes who shouldn't be practicing law, but eventually the horror stories of people with massive debts and repeat bar failures would deter law school applicants.

So, 241, your argument boils down to this (grammar and spelling mistakes aside):

(1) People at Skadden - or more appropriately, you and the few people in the firm you identify with - are presumptuous, solipsistic douche-bags.

(2) As a presumptuous douche-bag (see (1)), you simply can't believe that anyone from Iowa clerks for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, let alone any federal appellate court.

(3) And your personal disbelief, absent any factual inquiry, matters so much to an objective determination of reality (again, see (1)).

The majority of students at Iowa Law are riff raff cornhuskers who grew up on farms. This is actually true of the majority of people who live in the midwest. They probably couldn't even tell you where Harvard is located. They all voted for John McCain, and George Bush before him, even though they couldn't even tell you what the three branches of the federal government are.

Furthermore, no one should attend law school because entering the legal profession will inevitably lead to depression and decreased quality of life. You will be burdened with unimaginable debt, won't be able to find debt, and ultimately will probably go bankrupt and end up homeless.

232,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Indiana JUST jumped Iowa for the first time in the rankings? Their leap (was it 11 spots??) came after the faculty member (an Indiana alum) decided to bolt.

Yes, WashU is ranked higher, but you have to live in St. Louis. WashU is not SO much higher, though, that there's a huge incentive to leave for the same pay.

You're right, though, the Lewis & Clark thing is just weird. He was the faculty adviser for Law Review (meaning, he got his picture taken with the Board every year and that's about it).

251,

You're an idiot. I'd say at least 2/3 of the law school students were ardent Barack Obama supporters (and that's a conservative estimate...oh the irony).

BUT, there is some truth to what you're saying. There is a good percentage of Iowa law students who are not intellectually on par with a lot of other schools bottom feeders. But, I see no drop off from the top of Iowa's classes than those of other comparably ranked schools.

It's not about the quality of the law school ... it's that we have a totally saturated legal market that is not going to recover for several years to come. You think the top firms are going to hire law students with no experience in 2 years, when they will be able to pick up experienced lawyers for less money? Only students at the very top schools will be getting offers, and even then, only those inthe top half of their class. What laid off 3rd year with 150k of debt wouldn't take the first year salary? Going to any law school right now is a stupid decision. You are taking on debt you won't be able to pay off. This is a profession in trouble.

254,

The SKY IS FALLING!!!

The University of Iowa is not at fault for the oversaturation of the legal market. Students knowingly make the choice to go to law school and take their chances at landing a job when they get out.

If you think Iowa is all corn, you've never been to Nebraska. If you think all Iowans are all farmers, you're just ignorant.

The University of Iowa is not at fault for the oversaturation of the legal market. Students knowingly make the choice to go to law school and take their chances at landing a job when they get out.

If you think Iowa is all corn, you've never been to Nebraska. If you think all Iowans are all farmers, you're just ignorant.

250, no one was arguing the merits of any of the points I was making. they weren't being asserted for the truth of the matter, but simply for th efact that they existed (e.g., that Iowa was not a conduit of people to Skaddden). And you continue to harp on the mistaken notion that the Iowa defender was referring to multiple grads getting Federal Circuit clerkships, when he said "federal circuit clerkships." Plainly, he was trying to claim that Iowa had multiple people in Circuit clerkships generally, which, while federal, no one who actually holds them refers to as a "circuit clerkship." Thus, his claims are dubious at best; fewer than 2% of Iowa grads go on to clerk. See http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rG8410bRyHQ/SbmbEFXcm1I/AAAAAAAAACU/gMNeA7gUyc4/s1600-h/t31.bmp.

250, no one was arguing the merits of any of the points I was making. they weren't being asserted for the truth of the matter, but simply for th efact that they existed (e.g., that Iowa was not a conduit of people to Skaddden). And you continue to harp on the mistaken notion that the Iowa defender was referring to multiple grads getting Federal Circuit clerkships, when he said "federal circuit clerkships." Plainly, he was trying to claim that Iowa had multiple people in Circuit clerkships generally, which, while federal, no one who actually holds them refers to as a "circuit clerkship." Thus, his claims are dubious at best; fewer than 2% of Iowa grads go on to clerk. See http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rG8410bRyHQ/SbmbEFXcm1I/AAAAAAAAACU/gMNeA7gUyc4/s1600-h/t31.bmp.

I do not understand the animosity towards Iowa. How Iowa’s increase in applications negatively affects anyone going to a T20 school or working in a V10 firm is beyond me. Do you expect a law school to advertise itself using self-deprecating statements? Just because there is an increase in applications does not necessarily mean the size of the incoming class will grow as well. A general increase in applications is something for every current law student or lawyer to worry about, but the fact that it is taking place at Iowa has little relevance to everyone’s blatantly rude comments.

260,

Class sizes are actually shrinking in order to tinker the USNews numbers. This is just an attempt to make up for employment numbers in the rankings algorithm. Nothing more. Nothing less.

260: I couldn't agree with you more. This post is just rude. I fail to see how insulting Iowa Law, or its students, contributes anything to the apparent premise of the article (which appears to be nothing more than the obvious and asinine observation that law school apps are up).

Congrats to Elie and the herd. You've proven, once again, that one should never confuse an "elite" pedigree with actual class.

- Iowa grad

259 - thanks for the meaningless, sourceless link. Try this one instead: http://www.law.uiowa.edu/documents/cso_stats_2008.pdf. I'm not suggesting it's completely accurate, but at least we know where it came from.

259 - thanks for the meaningless, sourceless link. Try this one instead: http://www.law.uiowa.edu/documents/cso_stats_2008.pdf. I'm not suggesting it's completely accurate, but at least we know where it came from.

235 and 238 has it exactly right. Only other thing to add: Build strong professional relationships along the way. I'm not talking about ass-kissing, etc. I'm talking about showing people those skills and helping their development, whether they be partners, associates and staff. You never know who will be able to help you, and who will remember that help you gave along the way.

This thread is nothing without ShaFeef.

Iowa is a festering TTT in decline. An old faculty and a clueless administration, a crappy building, and an abysmal placement rate for all but the top of the class. Expect its decline in the ranking to continue.

How does Iowa even compare to the other T30 schools in the Midwest?

Iowa:
LSAT, 161
GPA, 3.61

Indiana:
LSAT, 167
GPA, 3.7

WashU:
LSAT, 167
GPA, 3.7

Illinois:
LSAT, 166
GPA, 3.8

The list goes on. Only go to Iowa if you are in-state, want to work in Iowa, or can't get into one of the other mid-west schools.

good point 260, i have tried to stay away from the legal blogs because of the very same stuff going on here, i dont get why people who are grads from awesome law schools and who are attorneys at awesome big law firms A. have the time to be so rude to a school and a state that they have never been to probably or B. feel the need to do so, they must have some other issues in their lives that make them need to rag on others to feel better about themselves. P.S. rest of the country, Iowa is not filled with hick ignorant farmers, its filled with lots of nice people (not a very diverse group sure, but still very nice) who do very well in raising good hardworking well rounded kids, as opposed to apparently the probably coastal parents who raised the self entitled arrogant pricks wasting all their time to trash an entire state on here. P.P.S dont waste your time insulting me because of my bad grammar in this post, i dont care, its a rant, i dont proof read internet posts. P.P.P.S the top 20 and ivy league could use an iowa common sense infusion and then maybe they wouldn't have some of their grads burning down churches ;)

I'm a 2L at Iowa and luckily decided to participate in a consortium interviewing program, from which I found my summer position. I say luckily because OCI this fall was the saddest thing I have ever seen. Most of the Big Law firms with which Iowa traditionally has had an excellent relationship either opted for resume collect or didn't recruit at all. As for finger pointing, I blame the outgoing dean-here's hoping the next one has a vision for our law school that doesn't involve solely careers in pro bono. That aside, Iowa Law is actually a great law school (as the admissions staff boasts) and I continue to enjoy my time here.

the LA one ,270?

263, your link does not even work. the one I sent, for people who understand that IA is the abbreviation for Iowa, shows that 2% of grads clerk, which if you look at the hard numbers behind it, is 4 total. It's only meaningless if you're A) a complete idiot who can't read s simple bar graph, or 2) want to deny the plain numbers. The numbers for fed appellate clerkships are: Fordham 4, Iowa 4, Georgia 4, BYU 4. No one is saying that you can't get a JD from Iowa, just that if you do, there are certain jobs that are unavailable/highly unlikely.

268, i dont really pay attention to any of the rankings stats, but have any of us ever stopped to think about what it takes to be a good attorney and advocate for clients. I am not talking about sitting in an office writing a contract or being a robot who does securities regs work...maybe what it takes is not being a pretentious snob who has a down to earth great work ethic that isn't necessarily reflected in an LSAT score. P.S. not all of our daddy's had enough money to go to LSAT summer camp....so while these qualities i speak of aren't part of US News, I am saying that in general iowa puts out good lawyers because they put out good people....i.e. no church burners

I am an '07 Iowa Alum and I LOVED that law school. I had stellar professors who were extremely intelligent and easy to work with. However, I must say Iowa's career services dept. sucks. They have pretty crappy firms come to OCI and fail miserably at getting you a job outside their "regulars." I got a fantastic job, but it was 100% due to my own efforts. I'm from Texas and no one knew where the hell U of I was. It made interviews easy. "Whoa, Iowa? What was it like for a Texan up ther?" I could go on for 20 minutes.

I am an Iowa Alum and I LOVED that law school. I had stellar professors who were extremely intelligent and easy to work with. However, I must say Iowa's career services dept. sucks. They have pretty crappy firms come to OCI and fail miserably at getting you a job outside their "regulars". I got a fantastic job, but it was 100% due to my own efforts. I'm from Texas and no one knew where the hell U of I was. It made interviews easy. "Whoa, Iowa? What was it like for a Texan up there?" I could go on for 20 minutes.

167- who gives a shit about prestige, shouldn't it be about who is the best overall lawyer...just another piece of evidence that biglaw's hiring model is messed up. Sure i know you want to sell to clients, hey my guy went here, but come one, step outside the bubble for an instant and realize that you are backwards. If iowa has good faculty and produces good students who cares if senators sons and daughters dont go there

272 - You're right - my main issue with your link was not that it was from www.god_knows_where.com, but rather that I'm too stupid to read bar graphs.

Here are the Iowa Alum Stats that I found on the Iowa College of Law website: http://www.law.uiowa.edu/careers/stats/alumni.php Read them. Or don't. But please don't tell me that your random bar graph is the place to go for "plain facts" about what Iowa Alum have done with their lives.

a few quick things:

1. median lsat scores are low because school must admit a certain % of in-state student

2. faculty: hovenkamp is one of the most cited antitrust profs in the land, katie porter is a national leader in bankruptcy and consumer law (and a wonderful teacher), margaret raymond was a scotus clerk, kurtz has a property book that is used by a lot of law schools, adrien wing helped to draft the constitutions of south africa and iraq, and many more notable faculty that i'm too lazy to look up

3. the best students get appellate clerkships (usually 8th circuit), and big law in the coasts and dc - though some order of coif decide to stay with mid-sized ia firms. top 3rd usually get "big law" in chicago or other midwest cities (mn, kc, stl, wisc). i was neither, but lucked out w/ a v20 firm.

That really sucks, 71, and I'm not kidding. I make more working as a legal secretary in Chicago.

can someone please address the elephant in the room: the disproportionately high number of AA and LGBT admits at Iowa that are causing the median LSAT and GPA numbers to fall?

277: hahahaha. The stats you sent prove nothing germane to the dispute here, which was Iowa grads' abilities to attain federal appellate clerkships. Sure, you can inflate your "clerk" numbers to almost 12% if you include people clerking in the Des Moines JP Court, etc. My numbers are from http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/. As any appellate clerk knows ("circuit clerk" in your gutter patois), that is the definitive website for these matters. When we're hiring, that's where we look to.

What the fuck are you talking about #280? How the hell would the law school know the sexual orientation of its applicants?

278:

a few more quick things:

1. it is the out of state students who keep the numbers up at Iowa. Iowa purposely admits a certain percentage of out-of-staters in an effort to keep their numbers higher than they would be w/o these people. Without the out of state students, Iowa would no doubt sink to where it truly belongs in the US News rankings. If that's not gaming the system, I don't know what is.

2. Hovenkamp is smart and well cited, but he, and a large number of other faculty, are near retirement age and the school seems to be doing nothing about it.

Porter? Great credentials, but she treats students like dirt b/c they're at Iowa and obviously too stupid to get into a better law school.

Raymond? Nice, but BFD.

Kurtz? Yeah, wrote a book thirty years ago and has coasted on it ever since; he's also close to retirement.

Wing? proponent of diversity/legal-crit ideology; enough said.

Many more notable faculty? I think not; they've all left, including four (Janis, Sale, Stone & Yin) who left this last year.

Iowa has very serious problems on the faculty end of things and they're doing nothing about it except employing more adjuncts who have questionable and/or thin credentials.

3. Let's cut to the chase here:

Yes, there are some students who get these opportunities, but they represent a very, very small portion of any class. 90% or more of each class is treated like excrement by the faculty and administration; especially the administration.

281 - you said, "fewer than 2% of Iowa grads go on to clerk." Now I know in the appellate clerk world, in which you CLEARLY are in charge of hiring decisions, the word "clerk" ONLY refers to appellate clerks. But in the rest of the world, in which the rest of us sadly must exist, the meaning of the word is slightly more inclusive.

284, need we really go back in this chain. the entire fountainhead of this dispute was 103's claim that "me and my recent grad friends are doing federal circuit clerkships and working "Big Law" jobs all over the country." Thus, all of my arguments have been aimed at casting doubt on that assertion, which these "federal circuit clerk[ ]" numbers do.
Q.E.D.

So, #278, Iowa should stop admitting students who apply to it and are willing to pay more money to attend it in favor of only in state students? And then US News can determine where Iowa "truly" belongs?

Iowa has plenty of SCOTUS clerks in addition to Margaret Raymond - Eric Anderson, Nicholas Johnson (former chair of the FCC) and Randy Bezanson to name a few. Guess who Scalia came in second to in his HLS Con Law course? William Buss, that's who.

And P.S. Ethan Stone was asked to resign - he didn't leave voluntarily. Because even though he may be smart, he sucks as a professor.

281 (258, 259, 272, etc.) is a laugh riot. It's like watching a dog chase his own tail.

Please keep baiting him. His is the kind of nonsense that makes this site worth reading.

You know what, the East Coast Elitism really pisses me off.

I am an unemployed grad living in NYC -- J.D. summa cum laude from a T-25 with Tax LLM from a T-5 (you can guess where). I have more honors than I can fit on my resume.

I grew up in the Midwest, and got my J.D. in the Midwest. I came out to NYC for a Tax LL.M., thinking I may want to settle here.

Fuck this place. People snicker at me when I tell them where I am from. Even though I have perfect nonregional dialect and grammar (like most Midwesterners), people always are "amused" by how "smiley" and "happy" I always look -- as if having an optimistic and enjoyable outlook on life is a circus amusement.

When I did "practice" interviews out here with career services (with retired Biglaw partners, mostly) the comments were always the same: (i) impressive credentials; (ii) very well spoken; (iii) impeccably dressed BUT, (iv) don't smile so much, it's not professional.

Fuck this place. I cannot wait to get out of here when my lease ends. I just turned down a job offer (not at Biglaw, but at a fairly well respected 100-attorney boutique) because I can't stand the people here. Thank god I have some family money so I can afford to do this. I am moving back home ASAP.

Being cynical, cold, and impersonal is not a badge of honor -- it is a sign of inhumanism.

Why is it "cool" to rip on a state that produces perfectly nice, friendly, and hard-working people? Not to mention rip on their educational institution which, while not Harvard, produces a pool of talented, hard-working attorneys? In case you schmucks have not read the news lately, Iowa permits gay marriage. ELLIE, YOU HEAR THAT? YOU HEAR THAT YOU FAT SCHLUB? The very same thing you babble on and on about -- IT ALREADY EXISTS IN IOWA! But you're too big of an egocentric asshole to even think about it.

I am not from Iowa. But I can tell you right now that if I had to live my life in one place for the rest of my life, give me Iowa City over NYC any day of the week. Make fun of me -- I do not care. At least I can work my 80-hour weeks around people who enjoy life, and who are pleasant to interact with. And my gay friends can be married, too. Iowa City is a civilized place -- people should try it sometime.

I know for a fact those 2008 employment stats are BS. 99.02% employed my ass. There were more than 2 unemployed people from that class. Typical lying cook the books moves by career services.

I'm an east coaster that went to Iowa and came back east afterwords. I was in the upper half of my class, but no honors of any sort. The Iowa degree has no cache on the east coast. I've been to countless interviews where I've been asked "how'd you end up at IOWA of all places." It gets really old repeating the same mantra "top 25 school, cheap tuition, fun college town, yada yada yada." The degree has opened zero doors for me. That said, I made some great friends, banged some hot midwesterners and now have a good football team to root for. Plus it prepared me to practice law quite well. So if I had to do it again maybe I would have gone somewhere else, but as it is I don't lay awake at night regretting the decision.

All of this is crap. you learned how to write well in HS, and maybe undergrad. That's the degree that matters. But you still have to get paid, so go somewhere that furthers that in the market you want to be in.

Why are so many of you such outrageous assholes?

might I submit: 1) this is not the proper forum to trash a school's reputation; 2) this is not the proper forum to defend a school's reputation; and, 3) lat may want to get his staff under control, as some of the editorializing elie does might damage the economic interests of the people and institutions at which he aims his profundities (rotundities?).

afterWORDs?

281: Forgive me for introducing actual facts into this discussion:

(1) Class of 2007:
8th Cir. (4)
9th Cir. (1)
2nd Cir. (1)
6th Cir. (1)
DC Court of Appeals (2)
US Court of Appeals for Armed Forces (1)

And although you deem it beneath you, I'll mention that of the remaining 07 grads: U.S. Bankruptcy Ct (1), U.S. District Ct (3), state supreme ct (1), state courts of appeal (2), state trial courts (10).

2. Class of 2008:
8th Cir. (3)
6th Cir. (1)
Fed. Cir. (1)
DC Court of Appeals (1)
US Court of Appeals for Armed Forces (1)

And lest we not forget those lowly assholes who don't nab a federal appellate slot: US Bankruptcy Ct (2), US District Cts (4), US Magistrate Ct. (1), state supreme ct (1), state courts of appeal (3), state trial courts (5).

3. Class of 09 numbers are not neatly compiled in one place, and I don't care enough about you to troll through my FB friends and read their work info.

4. If you believe that the arguments you've presented are cohesive or well-supported, I earnestly sympathize with your judge. That is, IF he or she is not merely a figment of your imagination.

286:

No, Iowa should stop puffing itself up and claiming to be more than it is. They should be quicker about replacing the ridiculously incompetent Dean they hired five years ago and also do something to fix the faculty problem.

It's great that Iowa has some SCOTUS clerks on the faculty, but most of these people are on the upper end of the age spectrum. The last vital, dynamic and productive SCOTUS clerk they had was Bibas, and he left for PENN.

Your assertions about Johnson are wrong; he was never the Chairman of the FCC, only a Commissioner. Further, Johnson, while very smart, basically flamed out at a fairly young age. He doesn't really do much and is considered to be a bit of a red-headed step-child among the younger, more dynamic faculty members - of which there are now almost none.

As far as Buss is concerned, Buss is probably THE most intelligent person on that faculty. Yes, even more so than Hovenkamp. The only problem is that Buss is far too modest and humble to push himself out there so most people don't think of him this way.

Ethan Stone was asked to resign? Better for him. Another example of someone who was far too intelligent for the lunkhead students that comprise the majority of each class at Iowa. He's better off going somewhere else.

288 has an inferiority complex due to growing up in a town where everything closes at 8pm. Farmer.

290's comment should be read by any applicant using US News as their guide for where to go to school. Iowa's ranking is a joke and NO ONE cares about it. It's "Iowa," go there if you want to prosecute cow-tippers, but if you actually want any respect on the east coast, for the love of god do not go there.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

295 -- 5 clerks from your home-cooked numbers, congrats. Still 2%. DC Court of Appeals is not the U.C. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit. Rookie mistake. DC Court of Appeals hears cases appealed from DC Superior Court. It is a joke, even less prestigious than state supreme courts. And the Armed Forces court is also a joke. Career services always circulated their resume requests; I don't know anyone aht actually applied.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

288 - you have hit on the myth that makes so many people in the "major market" "non-flyover" parts of the country so unhappy with their lives. I went to a T3 and now live in a midwestern college town. I still remember the day I moved here and how I could physically feel the stress and anxiety fall off my shoulders as I strolled around the downtown.

I've lived in several cities and I can tell you that those that put down the midwest, or college towns, or small towns, really have no idea what they are talking about. Such snobs are seeking reassurance for their self-worth from external, what they perceive to be "objective" sources. The fact that they don't smile much is not a coincidence or regional/cultural difference...its because they are unhappy.

In my midwestern college town, the girls are hot, the people are friendly, enjoying life and family is a priority recognized by employers, houses are less expensive, no traffic/parking problems...And being a large college town, I have the entertainment/restaurant options of a major city.

Don't get me wrong, I like to visit cities and see the sites like anybody else, but as far as day to day living is concerned, it isn't even debatable. The cities are for the retards that haven't figured it out yet. The suburbs are for those that get stuck and have to make due.

I'm an Iowa grad, 2009. Iowa City is actually one of the best educated cities in America with a thriving literary community and plenty to do. It has a high quality of life and a lower cost of living than most of our peer schools. I turned down a $160k per year offer with a big Chicago law firm to take a clerkship with a state supreme court on the other side of the country.

Iowa was great to me. I see people complaining about its cost for out-of-staters, but a tremendous number of us got very generous financial aid. I have half the debt of my peers from Illinois.

Even if Iowa has some shortcomings, why are people so nasty on these comment boards? Are you all just insecure? Chill out. I wouldn't write these things about other schools.

302 - "lower cost of living than our peer schools" is a little silly, since you are apparently considering east coast schools of similar rank (BC, Fordham, GW) "peer schools." Iowa is not a peer of these schools, since east coast lawyers make fun of Iowa (and thus would laugh at an Iowa resume followed by tossing it in the trash) and actually respect the east coast schools.

303 - since when is the uninformed behavior of east coast lawyers the standard by which "peer" schools are determined?

East coast snobbery is totally out of hand. There are people that live between the coasts and many of them are very smart. Many of the schools there, including Iowa, are very good. There are jobs there too, and many do not involve agriculture. People without any sort intelligence or creativity take pot shots at places like Iowa because they've probably never been there and need to validate themselves somehow with an anonymous snarky flame on a blog. Way to demonstrate your superiority.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

ITT: East Coast brats launch an utterly unprovoked attack on Iowans, compelling but one irrefutable conclusion: TPDs proliferate on the coasts.

It's simple.

Iowa is always a top 25 school (top 20 when I attended)

And it is reasonably priced (I attended in 2000) -- in state tuition was $6000. And Iowa allows out of state students to pay instate prices if they just work 10 hours/week as a research assistant. It is a steal.

303,

Iowa Grad/New England Native/BigLaw Associate:

I've never heard a negative word about Iowa. If Iowa Law is ever a discussion among your "east coast" peers, I submit to the Internet masses that you and your peers each need to get a life. Congrats, you graduated from Yeshiva. Shalom!!!

I'd like to take this moment to thank the dick who sent this in as a "tip." Way to go loser.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

282

280 here....schools find out about LGBT status through the personal statment.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

310,

303 does not speak for anyone but himself. If you think it necessary to respond to his ignorant remarks by attacking a third group, then you're guilty of the same error.

A Yeshiva graduate with family all over the Midwest.

Iowa law graduate (Class of 2009) here. I'd like to cut through all the rhetoric and give prospective Iowa students an honest assessment of their post graduate employment chances.

Top 10% -- Reasonable chance of Biglaw anywhere; guaranteed Biglaw in the midwest (i.e. Chicago, Minneapolis, etc.). Good shot at federal clerkships

Top 30% -- Good shot at Biglaw in the midwest, especially if you do law review, moot court, or have something interesting about your resume. Tough time going to the coasts -- may have to settle for mid-sized firms or government work.

Top 50%: Will almost certainly have to settle for government or small-to-mid-sized firm work, even in the midwest.

Bottom 50%: Tough going anywhere.

This may sound grim, but it is the reality at every first tier school outside the top 14 or so. And of course it's worse and second--fourth tier schools.

You're the one who has to decide whether you're willing to take the risk that you won't graduate at the top of the class and, frankly, do some self-assessment about how hard you're willing to work to make sure that doesn't happen.

People have got to figure out its dumb to go $150 grand into debt to go to law school. News flash: YOUR PAYMENTS ARE GOING TO BE A COOL GRAND A MONTH WHEN YOU GET OUT. For twenty years.

Law school classes should be getting halved. The last thing we need is more lawyers.

People have got to figure out its dumb to go $150 grand into debt to go to law school. News flash: YOUR PAYMENTS ARE GOING TO BE A COOL GRAND A MONTH WHEN YOU GET OUT. For twenty years.

Law school classes should be getting halved. The last thing we need is more lawyers.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

There don't really seem to be any current Iowa Law students posting, so I thought I'd give it a go.

I'm Class of 2011, and wow. I'm not happy. If any prospective law students are looking at Iowa, ignore anyone who graduated in '09 or '08, and listen up:

If you want to have a prayer of landing a BigLaw job on either coast, do not come here. Want to know how many firms from New York, Los Angeles, and Washington, D.C. were at our OCI this fall? Zero. Zero firms. We had Chicago firms and Minneapolis firms dropping out like flies. On average, students had about seven interviews through OCI. And on average, they probably had about zero callbacks. I know several people in the top 30% or so, on Law Review, who have absolutely no job prospects for next summer, paying or otherwise.

I had two flybacks, gleaned through a massive letter-writing campaign - my only alternative, since no firms I was remotely interested in visited campus. I sent out roughly 150 applications. Two flybacks. One was Fried Frank in New York, which - as anyone who interviewed there this fall knows - was conducting cattle calls. They probably gave callbacks to 300 law students, for about 30 positions. You do the math. It's not great. I had to pay for my own plane ticket, lodging, etc. The other was Latham in L.A., which had already extended offers to 13 people, and only had 6 positions left. Again, do the math. Rejected at both firms.

Absent a BigLaw miracle, I'll be working at the DOJ Antitrust Div. in D.C. next summer. Not a terrible job, but no guarantees of employment after graduation, and I'll be making a pro-rated salary of about $40k/yr. for the summer. Wow.

And if you're thinking, "Well, this guy doesn't have the grades - I could do better," you're probably wrong. I'm number two in the class, and on Law Review.

I would be a lot more bitter if (1) I didn't have to watch my friends completely strike out - they're scared, confused, and disillusioned, and it makes me grateful to have any sort of employment - and (2) I have a full-ride scholarship. I can't even imagine being saddled with $80k plus in student loans, and still graduating unemployed.

As to the posters who said you're guaranteed in-state tuition your 2L and 3L years, they're wrong. I know at least one person who's stuck paying out-of-state, and a few more who transferred to different schools b/c they couldn't find R.A. jobs (no in-state tuition).

People have commented on Iowa's problems as an institution; I'll leave that alone. Our geographical isolation is our worst downfall - I imagine it's why our OCI got decimated even worse than a lot of other schools. Fordham, hell, Howard, American - much better options if you have even an inkling that you don't want to open a solo practice in a small town in Iowa.

We can't even place in Chicago or Minneapolis anymore, and that leaves nothing. I imagine things will look better in the future, but they look pretty bad right now.

315,

Wasn't poking fun at Yeshiva. I just picked a random school. It's a great place, I'm sure.

316,

I'm not sure that is the case this year. OCI was a bloodbath. Hopefully it will return to OCI '07 form when the economy recovers.

320 - thank you for posting the honest truth. I've tried to tell applicants this for years. Lawyers on the coasts do not look at US News, they look at the schools they know and like, period. Iowa's ranking means nothing on the coasts. Best of luck, you seem to have a head on your shoulders and will certainly do fine.

320 - I am sorry for your situation. That really sucks. But as an 08' graduate with several Iowa grad friends who have state and federal appellate clerkships, and work at Biglaw firm on both coasts (including Latham), my guess/hope is that your experience denotes an example of what is wrong with the economy, rather than what is wrong with Iowa law. Not that Iowa doesn't have some serious problems to address - primarily the recent faculty brain drain and the need to replace the dean. But, at least in my experience and that of my '08 classmates, unlike what 323 is saying, lawyers on the coasts knew Iowa law, respected our intelligence and work ethic, and hired Iowa law grads. I really do hope that when the economy is more stable, you will be one of them.

323, I really appreciate the sentiments - same to 324. And 324, I think my experience definitely reflects more on the rough job market than on Iowa Law as an institution, although I maintain my advice not to attend Iowa if you're just looking for a cheap ticket to Big City/Big Law. The Class of 2010 is facing a rough time as well; at least according to career services, the offer rate for Iowa students who worked as summer associates for Minneapolis firms was only about 1/3 - a far cry from the 100% we all tend to bank on. That being said, the current Law Review board seemed to do very well - offers at MoFo in NY, Skadden in Chicago, 8th Circuit clerkships, etc. So, I do think (as we started to suspect after hearing about deferrals) that our class is going to bear the brunt of the downturn.

THAT being said, a lot of people are keeping a decent attitude about all this. I was complaining to a friend about my lack of BigLaw job prospects the other day, and he said he's struggled with trying not to bitch - but that we have to remember that there are people out there trying to support families, getting evicted, foreclosed upon, downsized, etc. And we're sitting here complaining because we aren't going to find jobs that pay us $3,000 a week next summer to play lawyer from 9-to-5 and watch baseball games from box seats. I guess it's maybe just hard to keep perspective in the insulated law-school community.

320/325 - you're welcome, and great points about keeping things in perspective, 99% of the world has greater problems that what we discuss here.

-323

OMG! U of Iowa has a law school?!

There's more to life out there than Biglaw current Iowa students. Maybe you'll have to find a job that doesn't pay a 25 year old six figures. Tragic, I know.

I am from Iowa, and I was accepted to Iowa, but chose to attend elsewhere (up the us news scale) because of the problems with the faculty, admin. It is too bad, because it is a very fine school that has ultimately been trashed by its Dean that wanted to turn Iowa in to something it isn't: a public interest lawyer factory. It is still a good law school by any objective measure and students can graduate debt free.

I am glad that East cost jerks hate on Iowa. Stay the hell away! You are not welcome.

Also, not your best work, Elie.

I am from Iowa, and was accepted to Iowa, but chose to attend elsewhere (up the us news scale) because of the problems with the faculty, admin.

These problems are unfortunate because it is a fine school that has ultimately been temporarily trashed by its Dean, who wanted to turn Iowa in to something it isn't: a public interest "lawyer" factory.

This just happened to take place during a recession, which makes it hard to drum up cash from alums--especially when they do not approve of said PI lawyer factory,

It is still a good law school by ANY objective measure, with many students graduating debt free.

I am glad that East cost jerks hate on Iowa. Stay the hell away! You are not welcome.

Not your best work, Elie.

Your snide "--that's right, Iowa" editorializing reminds me of why ATL is losing cred with everybody (other than unemployed law grads).

All the prestige whoring in the world can't fill the emptiness in your hearts, can it ATL commenters? You all obviously have something wrong to not want to have an intelligent discussion about the state of the field, and instead want to talk shit about everyone else's school, job, firm, prestige, etc. You will end up sad and alone with your money and your $1,000 suit to keep you company.

It is sad! This is what happens when you have your football team reach top-10: it gives the law school some outside exposure. Regarding the numbers, they may be true! I believe at least 1/3 stay in Iowa to practice law. There may be some truth also about the administrators inflating their employment statistics but I believe that happens at any school.

The undertone and implications of this article are that Iowa is some sort of backwater and the University of Iowa is some sort of shithole. That false perspective is disappointing and unacceptable. I hope in the future you are more sensitive to all the diverse groups that make up your readership, and try to be more respectful of people like the hard-working and generally progressive people of Iowa.

I understand that we all want someone or something to blame. I feel it too. But we are better than this.

So the economy tanked and the job market feels it. We need to get over that. This isn't the Great Depression. We can feed ourselves. We should stop whining and persevere. We can press on with the confidence that things will get better - and they will.

As for Iowa's admissions, the school takes a unique approach. Iowa accepts lower LSAT scores. I had a low LSAT score, even for Iowa. Based on my LSAT score, I should be at the bottom of my class. I'm not. In fact, I'm nowhere near it. This should come as no surprise. The LSAT is a far cry from an accurate predictor of legal aptitude.

The LSAT is a fairly learnable test. With quality training, almost any undergraduate could score high. But a high LSAT score doesn't make a good lawyer. There are high LSAT scorers who can't write a legal memorandum, can't argue in a mock appeal, and can't seem to grasp legal concepts. Turns out being a lawyer involves far more than logic puzzles and time pressure.

If we trust a standardized test to weed out the good lawyers from the poor, then we deprive ourselves of some absolutely fantastic legal minds who couldn't afford the same level of LSAT preparation, who struggled in the test-taking context, or who simply placed other priorities before the LSAT. Law schools certainly need a consistent standard to apply to all applicants, but let's not oversell the LSAT. I cannot win a case by citing my LSAT score and arguing that it's higher than that of opposing counsel. Instead, I have to be an attorney.

I can't cite my law school either. My alma mater doesn't make me a good attorney. If I want to be a good attorney, that's my personal responsibility, and I have to own it. Iowa, like any law school, enrolls students who may be better suited for other careers. However, Iowa also enrolls some exceptional law students. If Iowa graduates need to earn the respect of the legal community, we can understand that. All we ask is that you not prejudge our school and our graduates based on a three digit number. We may not all be the best LSAT takers, but many of us can transact and litigate like you wouldn't believe.

That said, we'll see you in court.

Sincerely,
An Anticipated 2011 Graduate