SECOND

Dr. First
Cr. Win

fourth!

THANKS CRAVATH!

Dr. Win
Cr. First

To reverse erroneous posting of a first.

Sixth!

Lat

Did you forget to invite Elie on the run?

Maryland Bar Results are out....Howard U pass rate - 35%.

I'm an epic fail.

- 7

Cleary is not a peer firm of Cravath. Latham is a peer firm of Cravath.

11 - you're kidding, right?

To Laid Off Folks:

I'm a T14 who was laid off from V25 back in 2002 as a 3rd year. I looked for a legal job for 6 months even though I hated the profession, but then decided to completely change careers. I got an entry level institutional sales job at a bank, starting at $60K plus bonus. Seven years later and I've made an average of $750,000 the last few years, and over $1M in 2007. This year has been lousy and I should make around $450K.

I make more than most of my friends who are still with large firms and now close to or recently made junior partners (only one big rainmaker friend makes a little more). I work market hours and am home no later than 6PM everyday, while my law school buddies still burn the midnight oil and lose their weekends. They are miserable.

My point is, if you were recently laid off and even contemplating moving to the business side just do it. It's a sunk cost at this point. I paid off my debt with one large bonus in 2005 and haven't looked back.

Keep your head up, I felt like the biggest loser when I got laid off and it was by far the best thing that ever happened to me.

12

Latham made a lot of people partners

I think 11 is right. Cravattth is, has been, and always will be TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. Who in their right mind would take it over DPW, CG, or even PW anymore. They work you to the bone, treat you like shit, and then stealth lay you off. At least Latttham did it publicly.

Lots of Latham associates will have HUGE bonuses compared to the Cravath & Cleary scale.

That stinks for Cleary associates, but given the number of stealth layoffs there, I doubt anyone will complain too loudly.

Well, that's market now. My firm is almost certainly matching.

How do the bonuses get paid at Cleary? Is the listed bonus paid out if you hit your minimum hours? If so, do you get additional bonuses for going above hours, such as 2100 or 2200?

Note that there is no proration for the folks who just joined. They used to get 20-40% depending on when they joined, no?

Skadden will double again to move solidly into the V2

MARYLAND BAR RESULTS ARE UP. PASS BITCHES.

Note that there is no proration for the folks who just joined (fall starters). They used to get 20-40% depending on when they joined, no?

19 is an uninformed Cleary summer

17 - Haven't heard of any stealth layoffs, at least not in the first 4 classes (hard to say why people leave above that year)

19 - Lockstep - everyone with a pulse gets that, and nobody gets more.

I wonder why 2003 is seperate from 2002 and senior since they are getting the same bonus?

20/23: From the memo: "Bonuses will be prorated for those on reduced schedules and for those who joined the Firm after January 1, 2009."

ATL has fallen - not even close to breaking this...

Note to junior lawyers - read ATL for silly meaningless posts, but read WSJ law blog for real news.

13 - I am a laid of v20 associate. I will blow you every day for half of your bonus. I am a dude, so i am very familiar with how to work male equipment. You can reach me at www.LaidOffAssociateWillBlowOtherDudesForCash.com

Nice way of giving $0 bonus to stub-years.

@26 "I wonder why 2003 is seperate from 2002 and senior since they are getting the same bonus?"

Because that's how it appeared in the Cravath memo. Such BS.

So if a third year associate bills 300 extra hours all he/she will get is 15K...That's less than half what the normal hourly rate for normal hours is. This business model sucks.

Woops, didn't read the rest of the memo. Looks like the first years aren't going to get the $2k they would have gotten under prior years' pro-ration regime.

-27

17-Stealth layoffs? No.

28 - it looks like ATL did break this. check out time stamps.

Derek Bush needs to eat my Bush.

17 - my firm has seen a number of Cleary associates interview, but yes, they were above 4th year.

19: Cleary doesn't do minimum billing requirements - everuone will make the listed bonus no matter how much or little they billed.

29

Perhaps you were laid off because you are incapable of doing anything right. Like setting up a website. There is no such web site. I looked.

They should be lucky to have a job - that IS the bonus for most unskilled new associates! And one of my most obnoxious relatives is at Cleary; she is a harpy to say the least.

They should be lucky to have a job - that IS the bonus for most unskilled new associates! And one of my most obnoxious relatives is at Cleary; she is a harpy to say the least.

Hi I'm Carrie Prejean.
Congrats guys on your bonuses. :)
I have one small favor to ask. ;)
With all that money will you please buy my sex tape rather than illegally download it off the internet.
kthnxbai Carrie

Milbank will match next...

42

You dont beleive in gay marraige. What are your thoughts about about frequent MFFFFFFFFFF flings with lots of compensation?

wtf, class of 09 not getting anything at all? f*ck u!

39 - It sounds like 29 was joking regarding the website. It seems like you are incapable of understanding a simple joke. In addition, your sentence - "Like setting up a website" is a clause, and thus not a complete sentence. Perhaps you should "look" at a grammar book.

DUMBASS third tier law student.

It sure is a riot to see how excited these people get over some chump change.

Hi, my name is Jake Emeritus and I have a Mangina

The partners are laughing themselves to the bank.

I'm a little curious about what the V100 firms that froze salaries will do (for those who met their hours, and for those that haven't).

This would never happen at Paul Hastings.

I like the poll added to this post:

"Is it all over? Will 2009 associate bonuses at large New York law firms follow the Cravath scale?"

I voted YES (sad but true).

CHECK YOU EMAIL (AND GET TEH BRAIN CANCERS)!

If Obama really wanted to give this economy the jump start it needs he would tax these bonuses at 90% and use the money to pay for free abortions and health care for illegal aliens.

There is a super secret meeting for Managing Partners of large law firms. What associate has the gumption to bring an antitrust action for collusion to depress bonuses and wages of attorneys? Anyone?

This would never happen at Heller Ehrman

S&C and DPW can still save us

45, class of '09 gets to be not unemployed. Maybe. F U Indeed.

This just reeks of future liability claims. Why the fuck would you inject somebody with HIV?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_med_gene_therapy

#49 bears repeating. These pathetic bonuses are a major windfall for partners.

49/60: Yes and no. If partner profits drop at these firms, then this is wise and prudent behavior -- small bonuses while they themselves take a hit.

If any firms profits go up and they give the Cravath bonus, then they will be making a windfall off the backs of associates.

The Cravatholypse continues. All is lost. Repent of your sins, ye lawyers.

Skadden will double this, and some firms will follow. Just watch.

44
Hi sweety, Carrie here. As long as there is only one penis, it is biblically correct. So I am all for it. Two (or more, Oh my!!) according to the bible aren't have "real" sex are they.

59 - scientists have for the past 15+ years researched the HIV virus as a potential vector for gene therapy. It has some big advantages in terms of selectively infecting certain cell types, and permanently integrating the gene therapy product into the host cell genome.

44
Hi sweety, Carrie here. As long as there is only one penis, it is biblically correct. So I am all for it. Two (or more, Oh my!!) girls according to the bible aren't have "real" sex are they.

This proves it- Cleary is a first tier toilet.

Sort of, 61. You seem to be assuming that partners are only getting a sweet deal if profits go up. Be clear: profits can stay flat with respect to last year and partners are still making a killing. Every dime they collect is made "off the backs of associates."

Remember in 2001, when DPW announced no bonuses? CSM announed that they would be giving bonuses; everyone followed suit, and DPW fell into line. I think it's time for DPW to return the favor to CSM.

68: True. But frankly, its their business (and hopefully one day ours!). If the profits go down, then everyone should share in the pain -- them more than us. But if profits go up, then they shouldn't give a pittance just because someone else did.

Excuse me! Why are bonuses being paid at all. Associates are overpaid as it is, hence the salary reductions. Paying a bonus is just plain crazy. Dumbasses, all dumbasses.

what about Class of '09? we're associates too and should get our share of the pie.

72 - in most jurisdictions, class of '09 will do billable, attorney work for less than 2 months this year. Your contributions are meager at best. They're paying you and facilitating your health insurance; call it a win and shut up.

I'd like to take this opportunity to give a shout-out to Elie Mystal. He's a cool dude. Also, I lied, even more jobs died. And some soldiers got shot in Texas, or something.

I'm Barack Obama?

I can't believe anyone would have the nerve to be "dissapointed" by getting a bonus these days. What spoiled brats. Those that still have jobs are lucky to have them - bonus or not.

75=legal secretary.

Wow; having a job and getting a small bonus in this economy makes many associates "unhappy." How hilarious is that? Do these associates honestly think anyone cares?

1st years do get shafted - they joined after august 1.

Well played, 74.

i don't feel "lucky" to have a job. i'm an 09, and for the 2 months i've worked i'm on a 3000 billable hour/year track, and that includes like a week of stupid orientation training. i'm busting my ass for my firm, and have no life outside of it, and there are no signs that that will change any time soon. giving me NO bonus at all is just is cheap and inconsiderate. i've just started and my morale is already in the pits.

76 ftw

74 as well...

BHO troll is not working, at least with this audience.

so quit 80.... just because this year ramped up in the last couple months doesn't disguise how awful it was in the beginning.

any bonus is a good bonus.... and if you've only worked for a couple months, having your job is your bonus.

Just remember, Cravath was the first one to give the supersize special bonuses 3 years ago. As of now, they set the market for bonuses. So if shit picks up next year, you can look to them to come out first with the big bonuses and watch all the other firms scramble to follow suit.

Another reason not to work in NY.

I only starting reading this blog this week to check stuff about the bar. There is no MD bar post? Blog Fail.

74 = LOL

85 - I don't understand the point of bar exam posts. What is there to cover?

Anyone think of ANY reason why Cleary would make their cut-off for receiving a bonus one month earlier than Cravath's?

87 - I dunno, but he did one for NY and Texas. I feel left out, man

Does anyone realize that considering many expected NO bonuses to be paid out... the Cravath (and now Cleary) news is GOOD news. How about that?
Self-important douchebags that lawyers are seriously. Remember who the firm that got you your extra $$$$ in '07 was assholes before you start bitching now. Maybe CSM is the firm that got you any bonus at all this year, how about that?

Layoffs at SkaddenDC.

These are toilet firms. If you work there, expect to be shot upon.

I could understand if Cleary followed the broader market as they usually do, but that's not the case here. I think this is the very first time Cleary has been the second firm to announce bonuses. So Cleary took the initiative to be the first firm to back up the Cravath scale. That's almost as bad as setting the lame bonuses themselves. Questionable move, coming from a firm that's supposed to be in decent shape. I hope someone shows up these jokers.

part of the reason for the earlier decision is likely that there is a global partnership meeting happening in the ny office this weekend.

91 = BS

I blame Altman Weil for this!!!

@ 80 and similar posters:

if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you don't want to work a 3000 hr/yr track for $160K, don't. Someone else will gladly take your place.

I feel bad that you have no life but you should feel lucky to have a very well-paying job in this economy.

Feeling entitled to a bonus after having worked only 2 months at a firm is disgusting behavior.

As goes Cleary, so will go DPW and Deb.

It's all down to Skadden and S&C -- and neither will probably move until the other does. I think we're deadlocked until just before thanksgiving unless one blinks first.

lawyers

bunch'o dumbasses

for not realizing that the world is indeed small

that the managing partners in all likelihood agreed on what to dole out

it's their bottom line

get with it folks

Associates who have jobs in this economy but still complain about these bonuses are pathetic. I bet some of you are the same people snickering at the plight of deferred incoming associates and calling them entitled.

Just shut up. You deserve whatever your partner says you deserve.

- partner at another firm

If Skadden beats Cravath, I don't think anyone else necessarily will fall in line. If S&C does, surely DPW, STB, Weil, Deb (and Skadden) will too. I think S&C is the only hope.

anyone who thinks SnC will top Cravath is dreaming. I am not saying anything about the prestige of either. Actually, I consider SnC and Cravath to be equally the most prestigious true firms out there (i.e. full service, not just a litigation or M&A boutique)...
anyway.
So why wont they top Cravath? B/c SnC doesnt give a shit about its associates. at all

The President really said "shout out" ?? And they wonder why independents are breaking right.

If Skadden follows Cravath this year, is it essentially an acknowledgment by Skadden that they fucked up last year?

Jesus Christ 80, want a tissue? Welcome to the real world. waaah I make 6 figures and I have to work weaawy weawwy hawd waaaaaa

13 - what kind of work do you do, and are you hiring? I'm serious...

Seriously, 80, cram it. Do you realize that many, many people you graduated with are either looking for work or have been deferred? Of your peers, you are among the lucky few to have actually started this fall. Of the folks in your firm, you're among the lucky few who have only been working at a breakneck pace for a few months - consider what it's like to be on a 3000-hour track for, say, THE YEAR. I'm sorry things are sucking for you right now, but you aren't doing yourself any favors by feeling entitled to a bonus. You've worked for 2 months. Many of your classmates who have been deferred indefinitely by their firms would love, love, love to be in your shoes. Nut up and roll with it.

108
- Just because his weakling peers got shit canned doesn't mean he shouldn't want a bonus that equates to a wopping 50 hours of billable revenue.

80 is a fucking moron. No firms give bonuses during your stub year. They pay for your bar exam and other shit.

I'm not 80, but I along with all my other friends got stub year prorated bonuses several years ago. Then again, things may have changed in the last couple of years but it used to be par for the course.

13, what kind of skills do you have to demonstrate to get an institutional sales job at a bank? How were you able to get the position after working a big firm for 2-3 years?

62 - What Cravatholypse? They just landed some huge deals.

One is Warren Buffett's $26 billion purchase of the US railroad infrastructure, or at least a big chunk of it. Another is a $4 billion acquisition of Black & Decker.
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/11/03/gangbusters-at-cravath-firm-on-weeks-two-big-deals/

Mind you this just happened, so I don't know how well associates are going to stomach their bonus cuts after this.

80 here.

110, my firm has always given pro-rated bonuses to new associates for their stub years.

to everyone else - im working as hard as if this were 07. i realize that for most of the year things were slower, which is why i wouldnt expect a bonus as it were 07, but a pro-rated amount of what the 08s are getting would be a minuscule drop in the bucket for the firms but work wonders for our morale. morale affects a firm's bottom line too - obviously the partners don't give a shit about me, so im going to stop giving a shit about them - from now im going to shrug off work, stop being extra-available when my assignment coordinator calls, and get myself down to a 2000 hour/year pace, seriously.

42,

You have a sex tape?

80,

Only suckers and JaKe Emeritus bill 3000 hrs/yr. Sounds like you've learned your lesson - do enough to not stand out as a piker, but don't try to be #1. If you want to be #1, go into business and make it worth your while.

80/114 - Pathetic, seriously. Trust me when I say you have no clue. Just keep working and stop complaining please.

I agree with everyone here who says we should be grateful for the bonuses, all things considered.

99,

Great analysis. Top notch.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

Some partners at Skadden were puzzled at management last year believing they overpaid for no reason. They didn't feel like they gained anything. They won't be making the same mistake twice.

90 is right. This is good news for most of the biglaw NYC people commenting here. I'm not happy bonuses are smaller this year but it wasn't a given that they'd be paid at all. Now there is a market to match, at least. I don't give a shit if the partners at my firm only made a million bucks this year, but I'll happily take $15k over $0, which is what I expected bonuses would be in August based on how not-busy things were.

13.

Is that possible to do straight out of school from a T6. can you please advise?

www.cravath.com

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

I worked three years in BIGLAW at a v20 firm in litigation. Two years ago, I left that firm and started my own practice doing a variety of work, but mostly plaintiff side employment cases and commercial disputes.

As expected, I had a lean first year as a solo (after expenses, netted about 60k). This year, I'm at roughly 130k (after expenses), with a couple of unresolved cases approaching a favorable settlement and one approaching trial. I'm also getting more cases referred to me from previous clients; professional networks; etc.

I anticipate I'll clear well over 200k next year. And even more the year after that.

BIGLAW is - for many of us - a necessary evil. But it can be a temporary one, if you know what you're doing. Get your money, get a few years of experience, and get out.

115--

Why yes it will be called"Carrie's Five Fingered Release" or something like that. Please respect my copyright and buy it from an authorized outlet. And remember, Ceiling Cat is watching you masturbate. ;)

XOXO Carrie.

Sokolove Law LLC just announced bonuses:
http://www.sokolovelaw.com/
100k - 2008
200k - 2007
400k - 2006
500k - 2005

Eat shit Wachtell.

-8th tier stud.

80 - you're still missing the point. Bonuses aren't based on how hard you work. They're based on two factors: 1) how many people are banging down the door willing to take your job for less (lots), and 2) the likelihood that you'll leave for another job because of the pay (not very high).

So be quiet and be thankful for your situation. Otherwise I'll happily take your job.

Cheers.

13 = Michael Kimelman

13 = Michael Kimelman

How funny is it that all those douchebags at S&C, who have been busting their asses all year and will be the reason their bosses, the partners, are able to make more money in 2009 than in 2007...will still get nothing more than these fucking peanuts?

Fun fact: S&C has less than half as leveraged as Cravath.

129 = wise

Here's the deal. Lockstep should go away. Top performers should be incentivized in accordance with their value (both in terms of collections and in client good will). People who just bill aimlessly should get little to no bonus. Superstars on the partner track should get retained and rewarded. How hard is that?

By the way...something I've always wondered: how do the big firms telegraph to their superstar 4th/5th years that they're going to make partner in a couple years? I.e. why would they want to lose someone who was on track because that person had no idea whether they'd make it or not so they took a "safer" bet somewhere else rather than swinging for the fences and staying at the firm?

134,

Lockstep makes sense for first and second years because they have little to no control over how busy they are. The discretionary bonus is the fact that they are not told to start looking for other options after the first 2 years. This is typically when firms make the first cull. After that you have developed a reputation and so you are much more responsible for your hours. That is why many firms make bonuses discretionary at that point. HTH.

104,

George Bush could barely talk. He was always mispronouncing everything. Obama sucks at plenty of things, but speaking isn't one of them.

Cleary has a huge first year class that just started. They will need to lay off a lot of people in the near future to maintain their PPP. Third years are being let go too.

135 -- then how come none of the NYC big laws make them discretionary at 3rd/4th?

Skadden is the top of the market. Why aren't you commenting that Skadden is the leader and everyone else has to follow or fall behind like last year? Skadden has top people and pays top dollar. As the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

1. Hi, can anyone explain to me the meaning of the expression "well-played?"

2. Whatever the expression means, it is used exclusively by douches. Does that make it a "douchey" expression?

TIA.

Love,

Deferred '09 who should feel fucked by lack of bonus love, but is too high to care, and has been for four months.

139 -- have they announced?

136 - Fail. I'm pretty sure if virtually every moment of your life for the last 8 years was videotaped I could put together a 5 minute youtube clip that pretty convincingly showed that you couldn't string a sentence together either.

But, when addressing the nation following a tragedy where 13 people, 12 of them soldiers, are murdered, you don't first give a "shout-out" to someone in the room. You rise to the fucking occasion. Obama can read a tele-prompter just fine. So can Bob Barker and Jay Leno.

134, if you were at a top firm, you would know, but since you aren't, I will hook you up. The top firms generally take the radical step of telling you. They say, "You and three others in your year/group are on track. Maybe one, or maybe two, or maybe zero will make it."

Those are actually pretty good odds, when you consider the other odds we have faced in our career (i.e., acceptance odds at decent UG/law school/clerkships/firms).

TTT firms don't do this. They don't pay lockstep either. Instead, they pay hours-based bonuses to tools like you who will never make partner. After they take another three years of your life away from you, they let you go quietly, and the partners never take your calls.

HTH

142, well-played, stud muffin. BHO sucks as a public speaker, whereas dubya was awesome, just awesome. The only reason that only like three people agree with you is because the nigger-luvin media just can't tell the truth about how truly awesome and excellent our buddy dub-yah really was. It was like a giant conspiracy. Seriously. The news media is all like hollywood nigger luving jews and shit. Good thing you are on our side to help set the record straight.

-37

Class of 2008 associates in bankruptcy groups have only known life at a 3000-hour a year pace, since starting in September 2008. How is a $7,500 bonus even remotely fair?

144 - I'm like 95% sure that is sarcasm, but there are still a lot of people out there who actually think criticizing Obama = racist.

Either way, just to clarify, BHO is a decent public speaker. His judgment, however, seems to leave a lot to be desired. He's a politician, nothing more, nothing less.

I like my money and all, but maybe this is for the best. There is such a thing as becoming a victim of your own success.

To sum up the comments so far: Wah wah wah I deserve more money. Wah wah wah no you don't.

148 - why would you make whiny cry noises when telling someone that they don't deserve more money? you make no sense.

146=Epic Failure at being the Racist bastard you were born to be. Good luck next time.

112

I agree with the sentiment that bonuses are not "fair". Hell, b/c of the special bonus in 2007 i made more that year as a first year than i will as a third year now. and i'm working at a pace for over 3300 hours now. i'll tell you that you do actually feel like a chump when you work so hard for so little. not getting home until midnight for a month actually really sucks. i have friends that are laid off and i have friends that made close to $1m at hedge funds. i feel like i need a new line of work. $15k after taxes is not going to keep me in NYC biglaw for the long term that's for sure. i always thought the bonus is what differentiated nyc. now more than ever living in chicago or dc makes so much more sense. not to mention houston, dallas, boson.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

complaining about the size of your $30,000 bonus when unemployment is at 10.2% makes you a douchebag.

Mel Gibson?

Don't give me that shit about a 10% unemployment rate. Unemployment for college-educated white men aged 25-44 is 3.9%. For similarly situated women, it is 3.6%. Try again.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/11/06/business/economy/unemployment-lines.html?hp

I'm not going to make hours this year anyway so I will feel less fucked over when my firm falls in line. Not getting a bonus means I only miss out on a couple grand and think of all the hours of my life I didn't waste trying to get that couple grand.

MCDERMOTT WILL & EMERY
sucks.

149 -- pretty sure those crying noises are because those telling people they don't deserve money are the "have nots," and thus are crying about it.

No. Quite the opposite. McDermott Will & Emery blows.

No. Quite the opposite. McDermott Will & Emery blows.

At least they are getting something. Some firms are giving nothing. Stop crying and be grateful you have a job. Grow up!

NYC is the fetid skunk anus of America.

Yes 60, how dare the owners of the firm take what is theirs? You do know how to find the exit, right?

What is a "bonusesls"??

Marry me, 155.
The only thing that matters here about fair and not fair is whether after your firm announces bonuses, the PPP stay about level or go up significantly. If they go up higher than they should, then bonuses should be higher.

Though I'm not in favor of lockstep compensation or bonuses - barely making hours is not bonus-worthy.

I apologize in advance for having to state the obvious; but, some people on this board really have a hard time adjusting to reality.

A bonus functions, basically, as an incentive/reward for hard work, accomplishments, etc.. What constitutes an incentive or reward cannot be determined in the abstract; it is contextually based. In my view, this is where all of those who complain about the announced bonus structures have missed the mark. They reason (in a vacuum) as follows: If I bill 500+ hours in 2 months, I should get a bonus. Those who disagree would call to the attention of those complaining the armies of associates, counsel and partners who have been dismissed by their previous employers, law students who have been deferred, etc. who would gladly take the place of those who complain.

Those who choose to complain have no bargaining power, leverage or skills that are so indispensible that they cannot easily be replaced. That is the point of Altman Weil's suggestion that law firms party like it's 1998--I mean, what are associates going to do? Threaten to go across the street? Hardly. Take that lucrative investment banking job? You can't be serious. Join a hedge fund/private equity outfit and let the $ roll in? Really? That's why Harvey Miller et al. left such outfits to come back to law firms and bill by the hour? Those who complain about receiving a bonus in this environment demonstrate poor judgment. Period.

162 = No Offered From NYC Firm.

There seems to be a misimpression that law firm associates have no exit options. Over the past few months, my colleagues and I at a top NYC firm have noticed a significant pickup in recruiter calls and have even watched a couple of people leave for the types of lucrative options that were common in 06-07. Talking with friends in finance, I also hear that hiring is picking up. The economy is clearly still in a terrible place, but the myth that top biglaw associates have no other options is just that.

Judging the quality of a law firm based on bonus is just stupid. Grow up you f**king spoiled brats. Your salary puts you in the top 5% of income in this country, and you really are not much brighter than many others who work as hard and get paid much less. You don't produce anything, and you would not have any work if some partner did not give it to you -- if you put up a shingle and tried to get work, you would either starve or make $40K doing wills for junkies. Just shut up, do you job, and be grateful you get paid 6 figures.

169=legal secretary

80, enjoy unemployment. remember you are not competing with laid-off second and third years who will gladly take your first year salary.

168--

With all due respect, you characterize the lack of exit options as a myth and, yet, you rely on anecdotal evidence to support the proposition that there has been a significant uptick in recruiter calls. Any improvement over zero constitutes a significant improvement; however, that does not change the fact--not the myth--that exit options, by and large, simply do not exist.

166

166/172 -
I'm not sure what other evidence you'd like - I'm not exactly in a position to commission a study. And, it's not all anecdotes (from my perspective) - it's based on my own experience too (which i recognize is just another anecdote to you). I don't disagree that it's a difficult environment out there and that, for most, exit options don't exist right now (and I don't believe I ever said otherwise). What I said was that for top biglaw associates, exit opportunities are starting to come back. The point is that places like Cravath/Cleary can't count on the market to force their top associates to stay - there are other options out there.

166/172 -

I'm not sure what other evidence you'd like - I'm not exactly in a position to commission a study. And, it's not all anecdotes (from my perspective) - it's based on my own experience too (which i recognize is just another anecdote to you). I don't disagree that it's a difficult environment out there and that, for most, exit options don't exist right now (and I don't believe I ever said otherwise). What I said was that for top biglaw associates, exit opportunities are starting to come back. The point is that places like Cravath/Cleary can't count on the market to force their top associates to stay - there are other options out there.

-168

Rumor is that Latham will not be paying bonuses this year. I seriously hope it's not true, otherwise I'll leave at the first opportunity.

Latham fifth year

i picked up a skadden paralegal last night and banged her - she told me this morning before she left my place (and a bit of morning glory) that skadden are going to be paying more than cravath.

DID THESE FIRMS FREEZE SALARIES? IT'S TOUGH TO COMPARE BONUSES FROM OTHER FIRMS IF THEY AREN'T PAYING MARKET SALARIES.

Government is always full of intelligent and competent people who work efficiently and never waste money. Everything government produces is great.

That's why Democrats should make sure the gov't has control over our health from this point forward.

HELL-th CARE 2009!

For low level classes, a firm that froze salaries would have to pay double these bonuses to be on par with the market-leading firms. Getting a bonus that puts your salary on par with other firms' pre-bonus salaries is a joke.

13 should = revolutionary leader of young lawyers.

im finishing 3L year now and using every possible credit i can to learn more about finance bc, if law doesn't work out, it might be nice to pursue a career path that makes real money.

imo, the truth is that only a very, very, very select few are going to get baller status from their legal careers. they are the ones who are exceptionally smart, charismatic, lucky, and well-connected from birth. maybe you can toss one of those categories, but never two. so why not go for it somewhere else?

added benefit, if young, quality lawyers followed the gist of 13's post, partners would shit themselves and lawyers wouldnt have to suffer so much to get a measly ticket to loan repayment and upper middle class-dom.

to me, law firms seem like frats - you can go through the hazing, the bullshit, and suffer to ultimately get a steady flow of average trim channeled in your direction, but if you want be w/ the 10's, you've got to go where the 10's are at...not dank basements that stink like natty ice.

The problem with lowballing bonuses and sticking with lockstep is that you're going to lose those most able to leave. If some firms pay their bankruptcy associates a real bonus, and others don't, you're going to see a mass exodus of talent.

Yes, this is an anecdote but: I'm only Class of 2007 and I get 2-3 calls/emails from recruiters a week. My colleagues who are more senior get even more. We're V100, but we're not well known for our bankruptcy practice. I'm on track to bill 2500 hours this year, and the firm has already collected 3.5x my annual salary in billings. If the partners don't want to pay me, fine: I'll find somewhere else to work.

181 - I agree that bonuses should be tied to hours/performance. The flip side, however, is that many firms use that as an excuse to pay out less overall. Lack of transparency inevitably leads to less pay. The best plan for associates would be a lock-step base bonus, with additional amounts for reaching certain milestones.

That said, given that you're 07 this probably doesn't apply to you, but in 04-07, bankruptcy attorneys were generally very slow, while corporate attorneys were doing the big hours. At the V10 I worked at that paid lockstep, the average for bankruptcy associates was about 1700-1800 hours, while corporate were well over 2200. Yet everyone got the same amount.

So what goes around comes around I guess.

180 - frat analogy is right on. Well done. In biglaw there's a system in place to make good, but not great money. If you want to make great money, you have to go outside the system

Maybe starting salaries should go to where they were in 2000, before the credit bubble even began inflating.

Of course, 125,000 in 2009 dollars is about $157,000, so we're basically there.

I'm looking to jump ship. I work too long and too hard to get paid this little when my firm is making so much. The fact is that I provide more value to my clients than the partners I work for who make 10 times what I make. But if I stay in BIGLAW, I can never reap any reward for that.

Frat analogy = post of the day!

175 - That's B.S. The word around Latham is that Latham is not only giving bonuses this year (at least to those who are eligible), but the bonuses should put the Cravath bonuses to shame and -- at the very least -- compensate eligible associates for the comp they lost in the salary freeze.

Between Latham's salary freeze, the layoffs, the counsel-outs/"stealth layoffs", all the scale-backs (office perks, all-firm meetings, holiday parties, etc.), and the huge PR hit / recruiting backlash Latham suffered as a result of its drastic cost-cutting measures...it simply would not make sense for them to lowball bonus-eligible associates. That is, unless they wanted a mass exodus of associates on their hands the minute the job market even slightly improves. Associate morale at Latham has been in the crapper for some time now, and most folks are just looking for the right opportunity to leave. A decent bonus is likely the only thing that will keep some of them happy enough to stick around once the work comes back.

13-

You acknowledge that this year was a "shitty" year. How do you expect anyone to get a "bank sales job" in this economy?

At any rate, when you say you got a "bank sales job," elaborate a bit. What do you do?

1) Latham told its associates in the committee meetings -- at least in some offices -- that there may be no bonuses this year.

2) Cravath is hardly a TTT. It and Wachtell have traditionally been a step above, though I would say that now the more apt pairing might be wachtell and quinn emanuel.

3) Skadden will best these numbers.

155 -

I just graduated from a Top 20 law school (not top 14, but still).

I graduated top 5%. No jobs in sight. I sit on my ass with nothing to do as I type this. I have four close friends who all graduated top 15% (three of them top 10%). No one has a job. We sit on our asses trying to network and send out resumes all day.

Perhaps unemployment really is low for white, college-educated males, as you say. But in the legal sector, you know damn well that unemployment is at historic levels, especially amongst the younger entry-level lawyers.

The people who write that "your job is your bonus" or "you have no market power so don't complain" are completely missing the point.

The fact that somebody *can* do something lousy to you, and that you have no recourse, is not a reason that they *should* and it certainly doesn't mean that it's *decent* to do.

Can partners pay tiny bonuses while raking in huge profits? Of course. In this economy, the partners at my firm could charge me $500/month rent on my office and require that I draft all documents with a quill pen and I'd still stick around. But just because I couldn't stop them doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a dick move to require those things, and I'd certainly feel comfortable bitching about them on ATL.

Paying shitty bonuses when you've had a good year is also a dick move--particularly when you know that your employees have worked hard and expect more. Can you get away with it? Of course. But part of being a decent human being--as opposed to say, a biglaw partner-- is recognizing that there is a huge gap between what you can get away with and what you ought to do. It is perfectly legitimate to gripe about.

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

Just to respond generally to 190's statement re. being unemployed as a JD, the big mistake most law school grads make is to assume that any job in a law firm is steady employment. The odds of making partner are remote, so the best case is that you get 7-9 years of apprenticeship employment at the firm before you have to find something else. That something else is usually going in house, moving to a smaller firm or starting your own practice. But in no case should anyone ever look at a biglaw firm job as anything other than a long term temp position. In other words, if you were looking at a biglaw job as the goal, you have mistaken what is a means to an end as a goal.

Your problem, 191, is that you're complaining about whether your employers are behaving like "decent human beings" when they pay you hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. There's nothing unreasonable about limiting associate bonuses in this economy. You make it sound like you're sitting next to some refugee family from Darfur. In reality, you have it better than 99.99% of the people on this planet. Suck it up and get over yourself.

I will never make partner and my life is a shambles.

-Daddy

totally agree with 193. as a senior associate told me when i started years ago...the secretaries are permanent employees, we are temporary help, don't buy a house.

193 - not necessarily true. Most firms are not "up or out" anymore. Assuming you want to stick around despite being passed for partner, you can. There are a number of class of 95-98 associates at even the top firms. Even more get the counsel position.

For most people, though, the lifestyle isn't worth the $300k they get. (raises pretty much stop after year 8). Not that it's horrible, but most associates at top firms can go in-house or make partner at a smaller firm, one where you'll make about the same as a partner.

95% of associates won't ever see $1M+ PPP. But if your work product was strong enough to make it to year 7, you won't be shown the door. You'll just stagnate.

totally agree with 191and I would like to echo other commenters that comparing non-lockstep bonus firms to Cravath and Cleary is comparing apples to oranges.

I am a rising 5th year associate at a v-100 firm that froze salaries and requires 1950 billables to get a bonus. At this beginning of this year, my firm froze salaries and instead of getting a bump up to $210,000, my salary stayed at $185,000. My firm had a very good year. Why should I get the same bonus as a Cravath or Cleary associate in the same class who made $25,000 throughout the year and may not have billed 1800 hours?

ATL, should be very clear that both Cravath and Cleary didn't freeze salaries and give bonuses to all associates regarless of hours and thus are not the basis of comparison for other firms.

People that are unemployed-I am very sorry to hear that but that doesn't mean that associates who billed a lot of hours are being ungrateful for complaining about profits in practice groups/firms that did very well throughout the year. Your anger is misplaced. Blame the partners who aren't hiring while making millions of dollars and instead are just making existing associates bill more.

197,193 here. The counsel/senior associate positions exist but they are indeed miserable positions. Partners look down on them, associates consider them losers, they get all the stress of being an associate in a big firm (and the expectations as well) and they are very vulnerable during lean times. So yeah, if you have some niche expertise you may survive in a counsel position but otherwise it's just a placeholder until you can get out of the firm.

194--

And the people in Darfur shouldn't complain either. They could have been born with infantile Tay-Sachs or been a thalidomide baby. Or maybe they could have most of their skin destroyed by flesh eating bacteria. I don't know why we feel sympathy of those whining refugees. They should get over themselves.

Just because your life is good (or isn't the absolute worst in the word) doesn't mean that you can't complain when somebody does something rotten. If you kick a rich person in the balls, he still gets to gripe.

If your firm is on the edge of collapse, then fine, not paying bonuses is reasonable. But if your firm made more money in the down years than it did in the good ones (like Cleary), you should be upset that the partners chose to keep it all to themselves rather than rewarding the people working for them. It's uncommonly greedy and flies agains the normal social intuition that employers should reward their employees for their sacrifices when they can.

I mean, if you cared to, you could probably go your entire life without tipping, ever, and see relatively few consequences. You have no obligation to do so, and the people that you're tipping aren't exactly Darfur refugees either. Do you?

I am an associate at a non vault 10 NY firm, and have been for several years now. What has always shocked me is not that my firm matches bonuses of Cravath year after year, but that Cravath pays such shitty bonuses year after year, which allows firms with much lower PPPs to match. Are partners that make 3M a year at Cravath really 10 times more valuable than senior associates that make 300K a year? Of course not. Do they really take on risk that a normal business owner does? Not really. How many Brobeck's and Heller's are there out of the hundreds of megafirms that never collapse or implode?

No wonder your employees hate you. No wonder your clients no longer trust you. No wonder the entire big law business model is buckling.

164: good point. The correct terminology is "bonii,"

189 - Latham has asserted that it's goal is to pay market compensation to its associates. Right now Latham is not paying market salaries to its associates (because none of the firms Latham considers its "peers" froze salaries). Latham will not only have to give bonuses this year to live up to its promise to pay market compensation, but it Latham would practically have to *double* Cravath's bonuses to bring their associate comp in step with market comp. Simply put, if what you say is true re: committee meetings, then Latham appears to be talking out of both sides of its mouth.

70 posts on this thread on a Saturday? The market must be improving...

Thanks for sinking the ship, Obama.

Not sure how Latham can claim to pay "market" salaries when GDC, OMM, Paul Hastings, Irell, Munger, and Quinn have not frozen salaries. The huge layoffs / salary freeze would have to make people with options choose somewhere else over Latham, regardless of whether Latham tries to "make it up" to associates with bonuses in January. For a couple of years, it has not been a market player from an associate's perspective.

Wow 202.... how many V10 firms rejected you to be so jaded.
"No wonder your clients no longer trust you"-- Are you kidding? Just in the past month Cravath's landed about $60 billion dollars in deals, and IBM has returned to Cravath to litigate their impending antitrust claims. You know, since they were successful at it 30-40 years ago. That is the epitome of loyalty and trust.

Also, you're a fool. Do you forget that Cravath was the first to pay the mega bonuses of 2007, the first to double associate salaries back in the early 80s. Their bonuses are not shitty. The past two years are an anomaly in the entire economy.

Cravath paying a bonus is the only reason your shit firm pays you anything at all.

155,

I read that statistic too on the NYT site. [ http://tiny.cc/svl2E ] White males, 25-44, college degree, 3.9% average unemployment rate.

However, it's misleading to cite that, given that the range of ages it tracks is so broad. You don't need a PhD in econometrics to know that at the lower end of the 25-44 range, the unemployment rate is in all likelihood much higher than 3.9%, and at the upper end, lower.

After all, if you bothered to poke around some more on that site, you would note that for white male college graduates, aged 15-24, the rate is much higher, namely 8.4%. Given that I don't see a bunch of 15 year old college grads traipsing along, that basically indicates an 8.4% rate for 22-24 year old college grads.

If you think that all of a sudden the unemployment rate plummets from 8.4% for 22-24 year olds to below 4% once one hits 25-27, which most new law grads are, you're delusional.

Shouldn't the BHO guy be the one saying "MIssion Accomplshed."?

188, I'm not saying it's easy to get an inst sales job, but it's not impossible. Lots of the banks are starting to hire again. It's an entry level job, you train for about 9 months before selling so you don't start making good money for about 2 years. You have to have a good personality, be persistent, schmooze with clients, etc. You have to be ok with picking up the phone and BS'ing your day away.

I fell into it. I went to an alumni networking event and met a VP of Sales who liked me. We discussed the position, he brought me in to meet the group and then I got an offer. I started with a bunch of recent college grads, coupled with the huge salary cut I had to eat some crow but it turned out to be well worth it.

I give info about securities to portfolio managers, and I work closely with our analysts/traders on the sell-side. Being a lawyer is much more difficult, to say the least.

-13

If my firm gives out these bonuses there will be mass resignations. My firm is not having a bad year. Case closed.

Thank you, 191, for getting it. I really don't see why partners should get a larger proportion of the money I brought in working for them than they would in a good economic year.

To everyone else, calling us whiners, if the partners want to exploit the market, fine, but it means my loyalty is up in flames, and I'll exploit the market by going somewhere else to make more money. And where I'm not getting chest pains because I am so stressed out and sleep deprived.

what's with the not-so-subtle quinn trolling, bill?

-jbq

Here's the thing, 213, and the partners know this: you're too much of a spineless pussy to ever really do that.

215, you must be right-- no one ever laterals to other firms. Firms definitely don't anticipate 20-30% attrition in normal years. Yep, you sound like a smart guy (fucking idiot).

Hey 212 - you don't seem to know how market works. You can only resign when others are hiring. The fact that your firm is doing okay will only incentivize your colleagues to stay. Your firm will bank on that and give you the same bonus.

212 - You have no place else to go.

People, control your work flow so you're not billing crazy hours. If you're billing 3000 hours, and everyone else in your group is billing 2000, you're a sucker. The extra effort never pays off at bonus time. You're just lining the partners' pockets. And this year, we all knew bonuses were going to suck, so you have only yourself to blame if you chose to bill crazy hours and get a crappy bonus. You are allowed to turn down work if you're busy.

-- 4th year associate who is on track for 2100 hours

Every big firm is still going through how it's going to make it given the recent economic problems. Latham did what it had to do early, and it's doing well now. making a boatload of partners, and unfreezing salaries. If they come through with big bonuses this year, I doubt there will be many who will still believe that cutting the bloat was a truly bad idea. Sure, people will still bitch and moan an demonize latham, but I dont think they'll care all that much when they have their fourth best year ever...

"If they come through with big bonuses this year, I doubt there will be many who will still believe that cutting the bloat was a truly bad idea. Sure, people will still bitch and moan an demonize latham, but I dont think they'll care all that much when they have their fourth best year ever..."

People here underestimate how many people from good schools can't big law jobs even in good times, so I'm usually not with the side crying "you'll pay!! you'll pay!!" Latham can probably still get people to come there.

However before this mess, Latham was generally considered a prime catch, a top 10 job.

Now, whatever Vault ranks it, nobody in his right mind would go there vs. any decent law firm well below a top 10 ranking. You have a very large chance that if something happens with the economy, you'll be left with no job prospects and six figures of debt whereas most decent firms will at least keep you around long enough to pay down the debt.

BO gave the "shout out" because he doesn't give a damn about the Fort Hood shootings. Culturally, BO isn't even an American. He's some piece of shit $800 million media creation who will go down as the worst president ever. This scumbag has lied about everything. Keep worshipping him you Obamatard assholes. The comedy show gets better with each passing day.

201 FTW.

Let me put this in language you will understand:

Billing 2500-3000 hours and getting this kind of bonus is like going down on a girl, who then refuses to reciprocate.

Are there REALLY that many of you who are BILLING 2500-3000 hours?

REALLY?

I can see 2,000, 2,100 . . . even let's say 2,500 on a great year. But 3,000 hours? REALLY?

Heard Cleary is letting go of a few low-billing senior attorneys/counsel. The big junior classes must be putting a lot of pressure on the bottom line.

Heard Cleary is letting go of a few low-billing senior attorneys/counsel. The big junior classes must be putting a lot of pressure on the bottom line.

@224: Slight revisions to what you wrote: It's like going down on a girl while she's on her period and then she kicks you in the nuts, steals your wallet and gives your friend a blow job.

Just in....Obama asserts that Bush administration is at fault for Cleary bonuses....

228 -- but, um, why would you ever do that in the first place? Seriously, gross. Wow.

230: exactly.

2L at a T14: know many people who declined Latham offers - and accepted offers at V15-50 firms - explicitly because of Latham's mass layoffs and the fear of being part of a round of massive layoffs during the next down cycle. Latham's 2010 summers will be of a markedly lower quality than in previous years if students at other schools are making the same decisions.

This just in....Obama asserts Bush administration at fault for forthcoming fiscal disaster caused by Obamacare...

Let's face it, most of the "cream of the crop" at T14s (i.e. the top 25%) can be surprisingly dumb. The top firms are still competing fiercely for the the top 10% from each of these schools. So the fact that there are less jobs available only makes it that much more important for firms to hire the very best. Ten losers out of a hundred summer associates is no big deal. Ten morons out of twenty summer associates is very bad for business.

Just because firms aren't hiring 99% of the students out there and 90% of the students from T14s doesn't mean that the top 10% from the T14s aren't in extremely high demand and will have their pick. These students will be turning down firms that shaft their associates even though the partners are taking home more profits than ever--ahem, Cleary, Paul Weiss & Quinn--just because the crappy market gives them cover. In turn, the summers that these firms hire will be students that did not have other options. They will end up with a summer class of mouth breathers from Harvard.

232: ROFL @ the idea that Latham's work will suffer because of having to hire people with lesser grades or went to a lesser school. A monkey can do document review. Latham will be fine and the new associates will do doc review just like their T14 superstars did.

234: "They will end up with a summer class of mouth breathers from Harvard."

So? Mouthbreathers do doc review just as well as anyone else. Firms will be fine. ROFL @ the idea that law grads have any real power in the legal market!

Our lives are hollow. Aren't they?

234 -- please explain how Cleary, Paul Weiss, and Quinn associates are getting the shaft? I mean, they have jobs, right?

This just in....Obama says Bush administration at fault for hollow, meaningless lives of Big Firm lawyers

"232: ROFL @ the idea that Latham's work will suffer because of having to hire people with lesser grades or went to a lesser school. A monkey can do document review. Latham will be fine and the new associates will do doc review just like their T14 superstars did."

"So? Mouthbreathers do doc review just as well as anyone else. Firms will be fine. ROFL @ the idea that law grads have any real power in the legal market!"

People considering summering with Latham right now -

This is what your potential colleagues think of you.

238, meet 191

"232: ROFL @ the idea that Latham's work will suffer because of having to hire people with lesser grades or went to a lesser school. A monkey can do document review. Latham will be fine and the new associates will do doc review just like their T14 superstars did."

While it's true that a trained monkey could do doc review / due diligence for 2 or 3 years, what Latham should be afraid of is what will become of these underqualified mouthbreathers when they become mid-levels or (gasp!) senior associates and are called upon to make tough, intelligent decisions, lead teams and mentor juniors.

As a first-years at my firm, I did quite a bit more than just doc review... I'd say like 80-90% of my time was non-doc review actual substantive work. Another reason good reason not to go to Latham, I guess, if their first years only do doc review.

242, that won't happen. People get fired after 3rd, 2nd, or even 1st year all the time.

This just in....Obama says Bush administration at fault for Mystal

I still have not been able to find proof that Lathan actually laid off a large number of associates. Therefore, I call bullshit on that. We all should assume that it was just propaganda by anti-Lathamites.

240- most likely those comments are by other law students like most of the comments on ATL

The thought that Latham needs a ton of sparklingly brilliant law students in their 2010 summer class to survive is ridiculous. There will still be some great, smart folks out there who understand that most of what is published on this site is overblown and will see an opportunity. That's all you need- a large proportion of associates from any biglaw firm will leave voluntarily before they get to the critical stage anyway. They'll just have smaller classes and if they need to hire, hire laterals or clerks who have enough perspective to realize there are some painful decisions that have to be made when the entire economy bottoms out. You can continue to criticize and throw rocks at Latham, but what should they have done? Let the ship sink so everyone lost their jobs, not just a few first years and some other folks who didnt have traction? yeah- that's a sound decision. There are still people out there who realize a well-managed firm that's making partners and healthy enough to continue to do well in an economy like this and pay decent bonuses is not a bad place to start a career.

Nobody gives a flying you-know-what that some little sh*ts got small bonuses while the rest of us are unemployed and underemployed and making sh*t $ in this G-d-awful situation and would be lucky to make $30,000 this YEAR let alone bonus. Suck it up and shut your pie-holes and stop complaining about bullsh*t.

BIGLAW will chew you up and spit you out.

248, your problems are of no interest to us. You never should have taken on all that debt to go to a shit law school where you let yourself do only middlingly well.

She get it pop it lock it drop it,
That birthday cake,
Got a candle, need to blow that crazy flame away
Now take my red, black card and my jewellery
Shawty is cool like the fire,
Cool like fire

Somebody call 911
Shawty fire burning on the dance floor
Whoa....

The ship be sinking...

This is addressed to the "your job is your bonus" crowd. You would have a point if we were bitching about this on a message board for unemployed lawyers. But this is a thread for lawyers working at Cleary or peer firms. Of course we grateful to have jobs, but we also just learned that our overall compensation for the year has been cut by 5-10%. This, despite the fact that our bosses overall compensation will like go UP by a similar percentage. Their profits are a direct result of all the hours we have put in over the past year. So, yeah, I think we have a valid gripe. Sorry if it makes you Mae because you don't have a job, but surely you remember what it was like when you did have one and your employers did shitty things to you.

This is hysterical - I work at a mid-size firm in NYC for just slightly less than market rate, for a soft 1800 hours, and I get a bigger bonus than my classmates at Cravath/Cleary. BigLaw is for suckers!

212, where will you go after your proud resignation? Straight to the breadline? We own you, don't you ever forget this...

BigLaw Partner

Two-hundred-and-fifty-sixth!

Nothing from other firms? What are they waiting for?