sad

Christ, have some dignity people.

The typographical error in his advertisement may preclude him from finding volunteer legal work. It seems that if someone should bring this particular attorney on as employee, they will most certainly be getting what they have paid for. FTT.

If you honestly tried everything and had no leads or connections left, it's not a bad idea to at least keep the hole on your resume manageable. Five years from now no one is going to care that the legal market sucked. They're just going to see two years of unemployment and write you off.

I'm not saying that I would work for free - that's asinine. I am saying that I would intentionally underemploy myself in order to gain experience while the market recovers.

With the way he writes, this guy should look into a job at the University of Miami School of Law.

I think what that person is doing is the absolute right call. Defer your student loans, get some experience, and you'll be miles ahead when the legal market improves.

#5 makes a little sense. Eventually, you're gonna need an answer to the question what have you been doing?

I am disgusted and appalled at this dilatory nescient. If you are unable to secure gainful employment, you failed to work sufficiently hard in life.

Incidentally, I have an outstanding offer at my father's preeminent peer law firm.

First!*

*-8th

First!*

*-9th

If you're not going to get paid, then go volunteer somewhere in the public interest - the idea of debasing yourself working for paying clients for the profit of some ass hole firm partner and getting paid nothing makes me feel like burning down a church.

"Nearly 54% of ATL readers said that they would rather sit on a couch doing bong hits than work for free"

American youth is LAZ-EE

"Whatever he does, he needs to start undercutting the market." I think you mean STOP undercutting the market. What do I bill this to? .3 hours, proofreading, 9999-0001! What-- no client charge # ???!!!???
--Glorified Proofreader

"Whatever he does, he needs to start undercutting the market." I think you mean STOP undercutting the market. What do I bill this to? .3 hours, proofreading, 9999-0001! What-- no client charge # ???!!!???
--Glorified Proofreader

Before we pass judgment on this guy, we have to ask ourselves this question: have any of us ever really gone as far as decided want to do more look like?

At least he is doing something instead of bitching about being laid off on a message board.

How's this different than Elie's job?
Elie works for leftover Krispy Kremes.

16: You wouldn't happen to be Professor Jones, would you?

Well I guess we all know ATL's true colors. ATL will disable comments for posts on its advertisers and its own law suit. ATL WON'T disable comments on attorney deaths and rapes. Keep staying classy ATL!

I actually agree with Elie on this one. Have some pride. Don't give it away for free!

18-
The difference is that Elie went to Harvard, couldn't pass the bar and now writes about the things that he should be doing.

quick question -

any of you agree with me that this guy might have a cause of action against Craig's List if he is unable to secure employment from this ad?

-not a flame

Suck my ass, Mystal, you obese, race bating, lazy, baby eating WALRUS!

First of all, Elie, he needs to STOP undercutting the market, not START undercutting the market. Your profile suggests you left the legal world rather than stripping naked and setting yourself on fire... is that what your managing partner threatened you with after the umpteenth stupid mistake on a document? Seriously, there are like 250 words on that blog post. GET IT RIGHT! You're an embarrassment.

Next: Experience is king. The ONLY reason I have a job is because I have 5 combined years of industry experience in the field I'm doing legal work for.

All those people stating they'd rather sit on the couch than gain experience: kiss your legal careers goodbye. If you haven't gotten a job 18 months or so out of law school, it's over, and you know it. Only a moron would give up free experience.

Wrong. This is a young lawyer begging for the opportunity to gain experience and become more marketable in a competitive environment. The guy's not trying to give away his legal counsel - he's trying to invest in his future. One year later, he'll be in a far better position than the folks who sat on their couch doing bong hits...

Only 54% would rather rip the bong than work for free? What the hell is wrong with the other 46% of readers?

Professor Jones also doesn't have the ability to proofread his work apparently. He asks for a trial for all of those issues that are "friable." Read the complaint.

What hilarity.

"2008 graduates are worth a six-pack and all the Ramen noodles they can eat, at least."

You left out "a day." "Six-pack a day." He/she's gonna need it.

WALRUS!

Donald Jones claims that the posts on ATL have 'damaged his reputation.' But his egregious grammatical errors and fallacious reasoning have done far more harm.

Here's my theory:

The significant other has a job in DC can pay for both of their living expenses and this is a stop-gap until the economy improves or:

Family is there, lives at home, waits out the economy.

Perhaps this is one of the many Weil associates recently (and very quietly) laid off.

Lat, why haven't you posted a story about all the Weil layoffs in the last few weeks?

Lat is a racist? Nice one, Professor Jones. ATL never makes fun of whites or asians, right? Remember Dr. Thio? Remember David Letterman?

Idiot.

I'm more bothered by the lack of creativity and ambition than the desperation. Hang out a damn shingle and get some minimal positive income. I can't believe that going solo would be worse than offering to work for free.

Perhaps this is one of the many Weil associates recently (and very quietly) laid off.

Lat, why haven't you posted a story about all the Weil layoffs in the last few weeks?

These guys are playing hard to get. I'm gonna take off my bra, blast 'em my nips.

No Scab Labor!!!

Probably some idiot who graduated from Catholic.

-Catholic grad who is happily getting out of DC

"A tier one legal graduate should be able to secure paying work, even if it is not legal."

--Not true, especially in this economy. This is doubly so for those who followed the familiar track of liberal arts degree, then straight to law school. After graduating, they're really not qualified to do anything other than practice law, and without experience practicing they're not worth much to a firm. They're also overqualified for a number of positions thanks to their education level. I'd be willing to bet that there are quite a few "tier one grads" out there who can't find any kind of a paying job, let alone a legal one.

36 - details, please!

JaKe / #31: ON POINT

35 is right. Pick up some simple PI cases. Defend a DUI. Try being an actual lawyer.

Any of these activities would be 100x preferable than the kind of work you would get volunteering at a private firm.

To those that he is getting experience, I doubt it. A person with his "credentials" that works for free is going to be abused. He/she will be given the most awful work that no one wants to do and would likely barely count as "experience" to most reputable places. I doubt he is going to be given the high end work at any firm that takes up this attorney's services.

Additionally, the firm would likely not call this attorney an associate. He/she would be called a volunteer or some other title. It wouldn't even be a contract position likely. Furthermore, this attorney will have to eat/live and otherwise survive? Even if he/she is living with parents, legal work is demanding and time intensive in most cases. You need adequate compensation to keep going sometimes.

Can't spell; don't want it. throw it back.

Isn't Mr. Jones a Tyler Perry song?

WALBUS

The hole on your resume could be the Peace Corps or, if you want to maintain/sharpen your legal skills, volunteering legal services at a charity, or for f--k's sake, go down to the criminal court and start handing out business cards and taking cases on the cheap. Grow some balls people, you do not need to work for someone else so badly that you should do it for free.

The only thing years of free labor will tell future prospective employers is that you're a f--king doormat.

JaKe is back with snippy one liners. No more drawn out bantering. This is good.

@16 Cool Face Guy

At least get your memes right. It's "look more like," not "more look like." This indicates to me that you didn't copypasta the quote, but actually committed it INCORRECTLY to memory.

Fail.

Yea, as someone who has done my share of unpaid/underpaid work, working for free is always a gamble. I often find that employers don't give you responsible work or they waste your time because they don't have to bear the cost of doing so. If he is really looking for substantive experience, the 2008 grad's best bet is probably to take pro bono work with legal aid, or apply for an internship with a prosecutor's office. These kinds of places might actually give him responsibility and let him try cases. Judical internships are great too, but the kind of experience you get from them will depend on the judge you are working for.

Kid is an idiot, plenty of public interest orgs in DC let laid off lawyers volunteer, I'm doing a few days a week at one right now.

Working for free? Sounds reasonable. Most lawyers work for free much of the time, just ask them.

Sad that this the reality today. If the legal ed isn't worth a paycheck, he should look at other careers. Unfortunately, many people can't find adequate legal jobs anymore. The promise that a degree = a job has been a lie that too many bright young college grads believed.

(1) Attorneys - and this guy is that:, not just a law school graduate, but a licensed attorney - should never work for free.

(2) I, personally, would never adopt this guy's strategy. But that aside, the root of this problem is the ABA.

(3) If the ABA was more rigorous in accrediting member schools, we'd have fewer schools, fewer lawyers, and a much more associate-friendly legal economy.

"Please note that we have closed comments on this post, out of respect for the judicial process"

Where is your respect for the judicial process when the editors of this site routinely comment on ongoing litigation, not to mention opening up the comments to allow others to do the same.

This is hypocrisy at its worst. I didn't have a lot of respect for this site before that post, but now it is all gone.

Pathetic.

Last sentence of the D. Marvin Jones complaint: "Plainitff demands a trial by jury on all issues that are friable."

"friable"? WTF? This guy must be a joke.

PE never comments re Sullivan & Cromwell because that is his firm.

Well, I'm the joke. I mucked up the word "plainitff". Dangit!

-56.

36 here. Weil laid off associates last month and has the associates who still have their jobs so scared to talk, it hasn't made the news. I can see why they want to keep it so quiet - doesn't look good when they're raking in the dough with all their big bankruptcy cases this year...

Mystal, do you ever get sick of Eskimos following you around and poking you with spears?

56/58 - mucked? really? You must have attended forTTTham.

Jones v Lat. Not Bone Lat.

I can't believe I shaved my balls for this.

Every law firm does this. It's called a loss leader people. You take the loss for future business. The fact that nobody on here thinks this is a good idea is maybe why law firms struggle on the business side.

49 - I TROLL YOU LOLOLOLOLOL

How much longer before law school loans become the “new” subprime mortgage. They are analogous in many ways. Undoubtedly, law schools will distinguish the two, since law schools are run by lawyers. Nonetheless, I would love to see a professor have the balls to write a law review article that criticizes the issuance of these loans during the current and future job market. I doubt any professor would have the intellectual honesty to go after law schools with the same fervor in which they attacked predatory mortgage lenders. Nor would they criticize themselves for directly benefiting from these loans, since these loans fund student tuition, which in turn pay the professors’ salaries. I guess it’s hard to criticize capitalism when you can’t use the unoriginal argument that a policy is racist.

60 = Racist against Eskimos. A complaint from D. Marvin Jones is forthcoming, no doubt.

I'm just waiting for the suit to be dismissed and then ATL will open comments on suit instead of having to do stealth like this . . . .I'll have to have at least two bags of popcorn . . . .Ah I love it when professors try to be lawyers and end up proving they a charletons

Would violate the FLSA to let someone work for you, for free, even if they agree to it. (Probably violate state law, too)

Maybe it's a genius scheme to get liqudated damages, prejudment interest and attorney's fees after a year of work.

His parents are to blame for the lack of success this young man is currently realizing. They obviously did not lock him in a room in high school and force him to study like my parents did. If his parents instilled diligence, self-honor, and appreciation for a strong work ethic, he would not make such a joke of himself. If this were me, I would strongly consider the only final option.

69 - are you even a lawyer? Working for free, if someone chooses to do so, does not violate FLSA or any state law that I am aware of.

Its called VOLUNTEER work, and people perform it in a variety of organizations (charities, churches, campaigns, and yes, businesses) for a variety of reasons, including to gain revelant work experience.

The name of this Tier 1 attorney?

You guessed it. . . Frank Stallone

70 - based on your subpar writing skills, I would strongly consider that you consider (nay, perform) the final option.

ok 36, 59 - how many associates? practice groups? first years?

His career is now FRIABLE.

ATL should hire this guy to file a 12(b)(2) motion in its lawsuit.

73, subpar writing skills? I must remind you this is a blog, not an appellate brief you wretched villein.

35/43,

Going solo is not a practical option for many new lawyers, depending on the field they want to work in. Also, there is a good chance that the type of clients a new solo lawyer would be able to get wouldn't be reliable with paying their fees, leaving the lawyer not much better off than if they had worked for free. And this is to say nothing of the potential for malpractice issues.

I do agree that it would be far better to volunteer at a legal clinic or some kind of public interest outfit than to work at a firm for free.

Dude needs to go solo. That will be the best on-the-ground experience he'll ever get.

Most of you amphibian grab-ass pieces of shit would rather be dreaming of finger banging Mary Jane rotten crotch than working for a living!

I demand a trial by jury on all issues that are triable

I guess he figures this is all he can get with a resume littered with Jonesish courses. At least he's not asking for $22 million. Wonder if there are any ladies of the evening looking to work for (nearly) free....

I demand a trial by jury on all issues that are friable

78
"willing to work for free for one year or more, in exchange for experience in civil litigation, criminal defense, family law, contract, bankruptcy. and/or property law."

This is not a poster looking to go into a specialized practice area. Getting a pathetic $500 upfront to defend a DUI is a lot better than working for FREE. Malpractice is an issue for anyone practicing law, see the post from yesterday. Get an experienced lawyer/mentor/friend to give you advice if you think you're getting in over your head.

With that being said I agree with you that if someone insists on working for free they should do it for a public service org.

dcbar.org

there are many, many pro bono opportunities.

74: over 75% of the first years in one Weil office were let go. Can't say about the rest. How has ATL not investigated and posted about this yet?

I am a jobless Michigan 3L and I want to kill myself

I graduated from UM Law and cannot believe that Professor Jones would submit a complaint riddled with typographical errors and poor writing.

1. "Friable" would have been underlined in Word.

2. How have you not learned how to use the comma yet? Granted, it can be tricky and sometimes debatable, but the document clearly reflects a complete lack of understanding and comprehension.

3. Did you even proofread it once? "enter an order . . . pay"?

4. Ok, so you didn't proofread it. Did you even look at it?! How could you not fix the spacing errors?!

I am absolutely ashamed....

It's not like you should be suprsied the complaint was posted here for people to nit pick....

My economic policies will save or create 4 million jobs. Unfortunately that will still leave 146 million of you unemployed. But this isn't about me. I have great health insurance.

I'm Barack Obama?

I agree with people recommending he go solo. That's what I am doing, part time, while I wait for the market to improve or a job to materialize out of thin air.

That said, I don't disagree with the notion of doing *some* free work. I am doing a few pro-bono events through my local bar to get exposure and experience. I also considered offering part-time free assistance to the firm I interned with during law school, just to keep my resume filled in.

84,

Good point, I agree with you.

-78

I hope everything works out for him.

This kid is a hustler people. All you lazy asses that can't comprehend his go-getter aggression don't have the killer instinct that it takes to make it big. I predict this kid will be rich one day, whether in law or not.

Also, while someone could certainly get experience other ways if they're not going to get paid, what this view overlooks is that such experience would not be in the RIGHT FIELD. This kid is looking for experience in a field he or she would be open to developing an expertise in; working in Legal Aid would be the true waste of time. While it looks PC on a resume, it wouldn't give the same direct substantive experience that could ge achieved by working in a field that you could make a career out of. As for doing PI work, well, I think working in McDonald's could give better experience.

And Elie, my dear, if you think this kid is "ruining the market," you need to open up an Economics textbook and educate yourself, because that is retarded. Even if copycats emerged and did the same thing, the "let's all hold firm and not give it up for free, so we can preserve the market" that you advocate fails on its face because of the phenomenon known as The Collective Action Problem. Lazy fat ass.

"D. Marvin!" (in a Southern accent)

- takes a shot of bourbon. . .

great move for this guy. he wont be able to get an "underemployed" job - any employer will know that he will leave as soon as he can. he can't get an attorney job because he is inexperienced and there are about 10,000 unemployed attorneys with 2-6 years experience out there searching also. do this, or volunteer at a soup kitchen. No one hires between Thanksgiving and New Years anyway, so might as well get some experience.

86: what office ? Just spill it. You've told this much - just tell it all.

86: what office ? Just spill it. You've told this much - just tell it all.

77 - my comment did not warrant a response from you; a horrible one at that. Please kill yourself now. You may want to consider covering yourself in butter while standing next to Kash. He will do the rest of the work.

93, how is it that Legal Aid or some other pro bono work is less valuable experience than making coffee at whatever slip 'n fall mill sees his pathetic Craigslist ad?

I'm in a similar situation: '09 grad, offer rescinded, looking for work. In the meantime, I'm doing part-time pro bono for a nonprofit. No way would I volunteer for fee-generating matters at a for-profit firm. Why? Because if I'm not worth $10/hr, or 1/3 of collected fees, I'm not worth anything at all. And if I don't think I'm worth anything, who will? An ad like that isn't hustling, it's begging. But the truth is, if all he wants is experience, there's no shortage of pro bono opportunities out there. And that experience will probably put him in contact with higher-quality employers in the long run.

I don't criticize this kid for offering to work for free. I criticize him for advertising the fact that he doesn't think he can add value to an employer, and for doing so in a way reminiscent of the baby bird in the "Are You My Mother?" book I read to my toddler.

-- Unemployed '09

Man up and join the Army. Heck, do something with your life. At $0 an hour, what excuse do you have?

First rule in business... if you don't value your services why would anyone else.

Rogue Thread: Lawsuit of the Day: Jones v. Minkin
(Or: Above the Law gets sued!)

First

A favorite sail complains after unemployed NY lawyer. Unemployed NY lawyer plagues economy. Can the announced pace pump? A concluded wife washes behind the post galaxy. Economy overcomes underneath unemployed NY lawyer. The ironic strategy chambers economy.

Going solo for this newbie is a lousy idea.

Potential Client: Hi, I've been arrested for DWI. Have you ever handled a DWI before?

Craigs list poster: No. But I graduated from a tier 1 law school and am reliable.

Potential Client: That's nice. Can you give me the name of someone who's handled DWI's?

Money talks and bullshit walks.

@93: "This kid is a hustler people. All you lazy asses that can't comprehend his go-getter aggression don't have the killer instinct that it takes to make it big. I predict this kid will be rich one day, whether in law or not."

Completely agree. Count me as someone who sees no problem with this. It's NOT that the poster doesn't value his or her service- in fact, it's probably just the opposite.

Those who are confident in their abilities have no problem with working their way up from the bottom. The only people who should be 'offended' by this post are the lazy and insecure.

The ship be sinking...

D. Marvin Jones was my Professor and I would still not work for free.

Jobs working for free at a NGO have been almost impossible to find. I've managed a nanny gig on top of 25 hours a week free work, but if I had parents willing to help out, I'd drop the stupid job and spend those extra 35 hours looking for something to move me forward. I respect this guy for not being lazy.

-1st tier school graduate 2009

P.S. The free lawyer is Albert Einstein.

i have a 7 figure income and rip the bong when ever i want. bill u.

87: In that case, you are clearly somnolent and dilatory.

DEFERRAL STIPEND SECURE

You all must realize that the next step is for recent law grads to offer to pay for the privilege of being a first year associate (apprentice).

Smart scumbag law firms will start charging their junior associates to be there and can effectively supplement their income as a trade school, peddling "experience."

104, you're obviously out of your element.

Do you know how much an experienced DUI attorney charges? Do you know how many people there are charged with DUI who cannot afford a four figure fee for even pre-trial defense, let alone trial costs if it goes that far?

There is a huge group of people effectively ineligible for the PD (and/or who don't want one anyway) but who cannot easily (or at all) afford an experienced criminal lawyer.

114- 104 here, it is you who are out of your element. I know plenty about what an experienced dui attorney charges, and I know that there are plenty of experienced dui attorneys who are willing to charge peanuts, as at most courthouses in the U.S. and A., there is a giant horde of unwashed criminal defense attorneys willing to take your case for whatever you can get from the ATM on that day, all of whom have more experience than the craig's list poster here. If you literally have two nickels to rub together, you can find someone with more experience than this guy. Not the top guy, or even a good guy, but better than someone with no experience, or at least someone who knows how to talk the talk to make you think they are better than someone with no experience.

57: I have been working on a list of peer and non-peer firms identified by PE as well as non-peer schools. This is what I have compiled so far:

Non-Peer Firms:
Akin Gump
Ballard Spahr
Bingham
Brownstein Hyatt
Dorsey & Whitney
Fenwick & West
Finnegan Henderson
Foley Hoag
Greenberg Glusker
GT (Greenberg Traurig?)
Hogan & Hartson
Hunton & Williams
Korn, Bowdich & Diaz
KS (King & Spalding?)
Lovells
Orrick
Perkins Coie
Reed Smith
Robinson & Cole
Schulte Roth & Zabel
Shearman & Sterling
Sheppard Mullin
Simpson Thacher
Squire Sanders & Dempsey
Thompson Hine
Williams Mullen
Womble Carlyle

Peer:
Skadden

Non-Peer Schools:
ASU College of Law
Brooklyn Law School
UMiami Law
UVA Law School

You may be spot on with S&C as PE once said “[m]y firm is headquartered in Manhattan….”

You're full of it Elie. You have no idea what it's like out there. At least this guys is going to get some experience out of the deal.

24 - Correct. Scott Rothstein calls himself the "Jewish Avenger". 'Nuff said.

http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/2009/09/scott_rothstein_evan_jenne.php

87 ==> please do so immediately. No one will miss you.

116: thanks. Can't tell the preeminent peer players without a scorecard. Even if I gave a rat's ass.

PE, JaKe and the other schtick players on this blog toss these terms around like they have well defined meanings. Personally, I demand a trial of all issues that are friable.

I'd rather sit on the couch doing bong hits than work for $160k. But I still do the latter because I have to pay for the bong hits, and my loans, and my rent, and the list goes on and on.

Just because it pays $0 doesn't mean it doesn't pay something. Learn to Chicago, noobz.

He's getting paid in experience he can't get elsewhere. Perhaps valuable? Every law firm that promotes based on experience believes it's worth something. So instead, say he's getting paid to be promoted to a second year with a better possible job prospect at the end of his tenure. And remember that's worth more than just the difference between first and second year salaries - it also means he gets the 3rd year salary earlier than he would have otherwise.

Have some pride? How about you stop trollbaiting with your specious statements.

Has there ever been a better example of how the ABA is utterly failing to serve its members?

Stop accrediting new law schools and start yanking accreditation from schools with questionable practices!

When so many lawyers are graduating that a huge number are literally unemployable as attorneys and working for free, what the hell are you doing to protect the profession?

This is why even though my firm paid for ABA membership no questions asked, I declined to renew mine.

Shows that this person has no life skills. Does he only know how to be a lawyer!? Hanging your own shingle is better than working for no money.

JaKe -

You fool - bragging about nepotism. If your father's partners learn of your postings, they just might boot you out! Grow up and learn to stand on your own two feet.