I suppose that I should know the answer to this, but is the Florida International University College of Law fully accredited by the American Bar Association and a member in good standing of the Association of American Law Schools?

Schools that are elite AND small, like Yale and Stanford, can get away with non-rigid grading schemes.

All the rest - schools that are elite and big, like Harvard, and schools that are not elite - should have real grading schemes.

Grade inflation for minorities only?

Think of it as the missing link in the affirmative action chain:

1. Minority admissions quota
2. Minority grade inflation
3. Minority big firm set asides (for the brochures)

EQUALITY OF OUTCOMES SECURE

3 - too long, didn't read.

I suppose that I should know the answer to this, but is Loyola Law School Los Angeles fully accredited by the American Bar Association and a member in good standing of the Association of American Law Schools?

does anyone know what the curve is at Southwestern Law School?

Elie, can you please ban the Walrus guy already?

Why not just do away with curves altogether? The professor should be allowed to give each student what he or she deserves.

Why do people think that Lat was the beneficiary of Affirmative Action? He's only gaysian. He didn't even get a SCOTUS clerkship. I don't get it.

I think at this point schools have a duty to their students looking for jobs to go one of two ways. Either make the curve higher than average, giving students a better shot at a job (contrary to law school belief, employers do not typically "know that School X has a B- curve") or, if the school is concerned about "preserving academic integrity" or whatever, then make the curve something oddball that there's no way to compare side-by-side with other schools, such as a 1-12 grading scale where a 12 is excellent and a 1 is failure, or a star system where 6 stars is excellent and no stars is failing, so that the employer has to make further inquiry into where the person was in their class rank. Otherwise, law schools, you're just hurting your students.

Affirmative Walrus,

What are some of the prejudices against walruses that are deeply rooted in American society? Is it the tusks? The obesity? The all-fish diet?

I love how Federal Society-type AA opponents worship Scalia and Scalia professes to be an AA opponent, whilst Scalia is a huge AA beneficiary (Reagan nominated him because he couldn't get Bork through and he knew the Dems in Congress couldn't oppose our nation's first Italian-American justice. Ah, memories.)

Whatever happened to a published rank? Seems to me that employers don't care what your GPA is if your rank in the class is #1.

Get a real curve and a Rank.

raising the median changes nothing if you go to a poorly ranked school. at a shitty school only a handful of people land good jobs. as long as the number of A's awarded remains constant, those select few are still distinguishable from the pack no matter the median.

Justice A.A. Scalia

Another ABA failure. The curve should be standard across all law schools so that employers can get a better measure of how candidates match up. Obviously grading is subjective. However, this curve manipulation is truly farcical and should be done away with.

FIU only maintains that first year curve so as to prevent its students from transferring out to a better school after first year...its all about the $$ ...that's what happens when the offering of "legal education" becomes no different than selling used cares

Class rank is the only thing that matters.

8,

Careful, sir. You sound like a right-wing fascist.

12,

The answer is: all of the above. You will never know what it's like to be an Affirmative Walrus in an Eskimo's world. Constantly being the prey. Always having to waddle from place to place. Unable to enter the "Eskimo Only" igloos. I'm just trying to do my part to eradicate the stigma of being a blubbery, tusky, fish-eating walrus through benign remedial measures.

13,

Couldn't agree more. Reagan used our own virtues of victimhood playbook against us. I, personally, would have objected on the basis of his whiteness. In the hierarchy of Victimology, non-white > Italian.

VICTIMOLOGY SECURE

Elie, if I send a turducken to the ATL office as a holiday gift can you assure me that Kash and Lat will at least get to see the thing before you swallow it whole?

"The top ten averages a 3.4? The top? That must be one hellacious curve or … people really need to hit the library. "

Someone went to a grade inflated school. *Cough*

That sort of a GPA is perfectly in line with the top few students in each class getting an A and the remainder of the good papers getting A- or B+ level grades. That's not really that harsh of a curve and I don't see why it should be any different.

After all, isn't it the whole point of the T14 Schools that the people in the bottom half of the class get jobs anyway?

why do you have to be a gunner or go to a mid-tier school to understand that grade inflation is obnoxious? i go to a T5 school and get mediocre grades. getting meaninglessly higher mediocre grades doesn't make me feel better about myself or make me more attractive to employers. what's the point?

Widener is the same way as FIU... the 1st year curve is something like 2.3 to 2.7. This is to prevent transfers but it screws the ranking and those who want jobs.

Doesn't matter. There are no jobs available anyway. Might as well inflate everyone to 3.9 - 4.0.

Since ATL has ceased to write about legal news and has decided instead to publish shitty amateur fiction, I've decided to post a short work here.

while we're posting shitty amateur fiction, I figured I would contribute

Doom: Reprecussions of Evil

John Stalvern waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were demons in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to Cernel Joson were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a space marine for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the spaceships and he said to dad "I want to be on the ships daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY DEMONS"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the space station base of the UAC he knew there were demons.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "You must fight the demons!"
So John gotted his palsma rifle and blew up the wall.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the demons
"I will shoot at him" said the cyberdemon and he fired the rocket missiles. John plasmaed at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
"No! I must kill the demons" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the demons"
And then John was a zombie.

For some reason, I thought Florida International was either an airport or a school for air traffic controllers. At any rate a law graduate from Florida International with a 4.33 GPA wouldn't even receive consideration as a custodial engineer at the firm. Thus, grade inflation or not, Florida International law graduates will still be viewed as bottom tier waste. The Dean of the school would be doing its graduates a favor by extolling their virtues as work masochists or fellatio specialists rather than use a rigid grading curve as positive or swaying factor for employment. That is all.

Northeastern has evaluations, not grades. This has a pronounced benefit for all its graduates.

Unemployed Northeastern motherfucking 2007!

Also, 27 for the win!

-not 27

Does it really matter? These people shouldn't be in law school anyways. At least, the harsh grading curve my incentive some of them to drop out.

This comment is addressed to "A Loyola tipster":

You claim that changing the average grade from a 2.7 to a 3.3 "punishes the small number of us that actually did well at this mediocre school by making grades meaningless and giving distinction to those who don’t deserve it."

Everyone at Loyola is "mediocre," no grade at Loyola is "distinguished," and all of you Loyola graduates will "deserve" the non-peer, non-preeminent law jobs that you won't have.

To everyone attending a school that is not in the top 10; if you don’t go to an elite law school your grades are unimportant, so don’t kill yourself in the library, you’re not likely to get a good job after graduation. The only ways to get a decent job after law school today is to:
A. know someone important to or at the firm or
B. be so valuable to the firm that they don't care what your grades were.
The fact is elite law firms hire people from elite law schools. It wouldn't matter if you were the second coming of John Marshall, you're just not going to get a chance.

Ironic - that Persian-looking idiot that frequently posts as JaKe Emeritus looks like a majority of the entitled, disgusting, cocky-for-no-reason Persian Loyola Law School students that make up a majority of the student body. Nice 3 series, by the way. Looks great in the parking structure.

Let's be serious -- Loyola is not as good a school as USC and shouldn't raise it's curve to match USC/UCLA. USC and UCLA actually compete, and they don't compete with Loyola students...

No. 28 - Hilarioius! And unfortunately very true!

27 - I liked it... you should get it published, maybe a press like Conundrum would be interested.

31 they say a picture is worth a thousand words and your picture is no exception.

31= douchebag

I apologize that my parents were more blue collar than white collar, and that I had to accept the full scholarship I was offered to even have the ability to attend law school.

I am also sorry that I now have less debt than you, and work for a T10 Vault firm.

I am sorry that your kids will end up to be douchebags just like you.

Oh, and I almost forgot 31, I went to Loyola

As for 34 and 32, your comments are made without any basis in logic or reason. Given that you either go to, or attended, law schools that are not Loyola, I am not surprised.

These schools don't have harsh curves. The fact is these schools are fulls of idiots that couldn't earn an A at any school, regardless of how inflated the grades were.

I love that people still respond to JaKe. He's the gift that keeps giving.

"fulls [sic] of idiots"

very nice work 40. You appear to have made your point effectively.

As the old saying goes, it takes one to know one

I think that Loyola tipster did the wrong thing but tipping off ATL. These comments are typically very mean spirited and generally unhelpful.

Listen we get it, you think that Loyola is a shitty law school. The truth is Loyola grads work at almost all of the large and/or elite law firms in the country. Some Loyola grads are doing well, and some are not. We're not in the top 10 but we are and have been accredited for many years. We have successful and famous alums. We also have unsuccessful alums. We are just like any other good but not excellent law school, except for the fact that we are located in a geographically desirable city (Los Angeles).

Loyola students are trying to help themselves by adjusting a too low curve. Your comments about how much Loyola sucks are unnecessary and sometimes downright cruel. Of course that is to be expected on ATL, where it is downright surprising to have useful and productive comments. But I wish some of the commentators would just grow up.

I'm already negotiating with the Southwestern SBA to get all students a .2 increase so that we can beat down USC.

Southwestern FTW!

43= pussy

43 I went to Loyola and I am ashamed by your comments. I got a T10 Vault job and didn't have a higher curve. Work harder, work smarter, and study instead of posting comments on ATL. Your comments simply perpetuate the image the people making these comments have about Loyola students. Stop complaining

well, 45 you probably graduated from Loyola before the economy tanked. if things continue, estimated employment rate for this year graduating class = 5%-10%.

LSU Law is doing the same thing. Median for 1L year is a 2.6. Median for 2L and 3L is 2.8.

Here is the info for the current median: (pg. 28)
http://www.law.lsu.edu/globals/sitelibraries/currentstudents/lsulawcatalog/LSULawCatalog_20092010.pdf

Proposed changes:
http://www.law.lsu.edu/index.cfm?geaux=newsandpublications.newsstories&pid=91112E37-1372-69E5-F73E5E57213C7BC8&bid=EF114F50-1372-69E5-F7A58C48228BF9F2

As an esteemed student at Cooley, it would make me ill if our administration considered something like this. I spent the last year grinding and slaving away to develop a reputation and the respect of those around me. When I graduate from Cooley Summa Cum Laude, I want it to mean something.

The people most injured by GPA inflation are recent grads of the school that is implementing inflation.

Consider the following hypo: Unemployed Loyola 2009 grad is under the old GPA scale (i.e., top 25% rank ~ 3.2 GPA). Loyola 2010 grad is under the new GPA scale (i.e., bottom 30% rank ~ 3.3 GPA). Employer receives both resumes. Who wins?

HAAHHAH 27 NAILED IT

Great post, Elie. I give it an A+

Of course, that's on an A+++ curve...

45- Why do you think my comments are shameful? I was simply pointing out that most of the comments were harsh and unproductive. There's no need to point out that Loyola isn't as good as Harvard or Yale or that it isn't even in the top 50. Rather, the comments should be a productive discussion about raising curves.

Also, I have a very good job and a federal court clerkship. I was helped by the higher curve but I don't think it's fair to my peers. I have watched many of my peers toil away only to get a B+ in a class where they deserved an A but missed one question on the multiple choice portion of an exam. Not only does Loyola have a low curve but also encourages professors to give MC portions of exams in an effort to prepare students for the bar. MC questions are not the best way to test a law student's knowledge of the materials. Higher ranked schools rarely utilize MCs for their exams. Anyway, this is another topic for a different thread but I don't understand why my complaints about the tone of the comments make my post shameful.

And recruiters will continue to just look at class rank for precisely this reason.

This is nothing but a layer of soothing balm for the chafed rectums of future law school grads, who may not be at the top of their class, and are thus jobless, but hey -- I got a higher GPA!!!!!111!!!11!

27,

Is so random I love it.

Loyola grads are fucked no matter what. LLS admin would do their students an even bigger favor by just closing that TTT down.

UCLA and USC provide more than enough grads to serve the SoCal market. Every other school in SoCal should just be shut down. Better yet, shut down every Califoria law school except for Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and USC.

/thread

Look, having a less stringent curve actually HURTS people at these lower ranked schools. At the end of the day, only the cream of the crop at an average / mediocre law school like Florida International or Loyola LA will get biglaw. Having a tough curve helps employers to identify these people very easily. Ex, someone with a 3.9-4.0 from either school is a real catch because it's not easy to do well there.

However, if these schools start to grade inflate and up their average GPA into the B+ range, then you're going to have lots more competition among FL Int'l, Loyola, etc. students to get the few biglaw spots available for students of not so good law schools. Instead of a couple 3.9-4.0 students (who get the jobs) and a lot of 3.0 students (who don't), you'll have the couple of 3.9-4.0 students (who get the jobs) and a lot of 3.5 students (who don't, and are more angry about doing well in law school, but not having anything for it).

Lastly, law firms realize the games that schools play with grades. Even if they don't, there are guidebooks that give a school's median GPA, distribution, etc. and employers read them. They don't like to see shenanigans / gaming and it'll reflect negatively on schools that undertake them. Harvard and Stanford can get away with it, but not so much FL Int'l and Loyola. Watering down the meaning of doing really well at these schools isn't doing their top students any favors. If anything, it just dilutes the value of their 3.9-4.0 and hurts their chances of finding a job so that the average students, who aren't going to get jobs either way, can feel better about themselves.

It seems to me firms outside of SoFla have no interest or have no clue about FIU students and firms in SoFla are too busy kissing UM grad's a***s whenever an FIU and a UM student apply for the same position. Truth is most FIU students are the same or better than UM grads - but they're not white or have a last name that ends in a vowel, and that all it takes in this market to end up without a job....bastards

Especially now that UCI has sashayed into town Loyola, Pepperdine and the rest need to GET THE FUCK OUT, there is no room for you.

58,

I suppose that I should know the answer to this, but is the Florida International University of California at Irvine fully accredited by the American Bar Association and a member in good standing of the Association of American Law Schools?

57,

Uh, UM fucking sucks. Both those TTTs must be shut down.

Colleges, universities and professional schools are businesses. They sell the promise of obscene salaries in return for obscene tuition. They don't care about turning out good citizens. They just care about placing their graduates so they can replenish their customer base (students).

Now, thanks to wage deflation and technology (think iTunes U, etc) their business model is under assault and there's nothing that'll roll back the calendar to 2007. Thus, you'll see a short term race to the bottom as these modern buggy whip manufacturers compete for a shrinking pool of customers. Long term you have to believe that many of these schools are destined for oblivion.

Would be law students, don't forget nature's iron law of the greater fool: you'll wind up as the greater fool if you don't pay attention to what's going on. There's a huge glut of lawyers now and many, maybe most, will never find jobs as lawyers. Don't let these schools trick you into parting with your money. They're just trying to unload a product for which there will soon be no market. A product which will soon be of no value to you.

All but the top 30 law schools should be shut down.

First, I don't think this was the best way to address this issue, "Loyola Tipster." What is going on right now is an internal discussion among students and faculty - not something that should be discussed on this tabloid website. With regard to the substantive discussion, raising the curve would have a detrimental impact on those students at the top of the class who have worked extremely hard to get where they are. This hurts the top of the class in exchange for providing a cosmetic "bump" to those students who didn't put in the time and energy that the top students did. Adjusting the curve higher will not do anything except increase competition among students in an already highly competitive field of study. Additionally, back when I was interviewing, OCI employers indicated their minimum grade criteria in the form of CLASS RANK. Employers identified the minimum CLASS RANK required in order to be considered for interviews. There was not a single OCI bid that required a minimum GPA. This defeats any argument that raising the curve will improve job prospects for the middle of the class.

Lastly, Loyola is still the third best law school in Los Angeles, and once the economy recovers Loyola grads will have better job prospects. Our alum are represented in a vast number of V100 firms nationwide, many have secured federal clerkships, and some have obtained teaching positions. Our law school produces excellent lawyers and I'm proud to be an LLS student.

I never understood this debate outside of the T-14 context. If you go to a regional school, OCI is based purely on class rank. These new "easier" curves don't change that. If a firm demands the top 10%, then you either do or do not make the cut, regardless of your gpa.

I guess it helps for clerkships though...

I didn't know the only good law firm jobs were in BigLaw on the coasts. I'm so glad the anonymous commenters on ATL could clear that up for me. I guess now I have a good reason to drop out of school, seeing as I have no chance of having a successful career as I don't attend a T10 or have a clerkship in NYC.

65, It's good that you're learning that now. This is the first day of the rest of your life. You're welcome.

Sincerely,

Anonymous ATL commenters

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NYU made things a LITTLE easier? Really Elie, I like your work, but that description is ridiculously hyperbolic. I've already shown in a prior post that NYU has a target of over 60% B+ in every class (can go even higher). That's not grade inflation, that's a farce, which is only less inane than the fact that NYU is still considered an elite school.

I still remain amazed that the self-crowned "elite" schools have been able to continue the prevarication that they actually reward merit. No matter how low these anti-meritocratic hackeries stoop to pander to their lowest common trust-funded blue blood, it won't matter because of the revolving door incestuous policies in private practice, federal clerkships, and government work. The FTT graduates who have stolen democracy from the masses continue to perpetuate their stranglehold, not because they earned it, but because the system is stacked against those who actually earned their keep at an institution that actually practices merit-based grading.

I graduated with a 3.08 at a school with a more demanding curve. Is there any way that curves can apply retroactively? I would love to say that I graduated with a 3.9

I don't care how you split it,

a 3.2 GPA and a 47/256 rank looks better than

a 2.9 GPA and a 45/245 rank.

Florida has an incredible number of TTT schools.

-- T14 Florida Lawyer

I need to have a good laugh tonight. Can anyone tell me how much the average student at Loyola or Florida Int'l. gets shaken down for per year for cost of attendance? If PT Barnum were alive today, he would opt for operating a law school over a circus.

I'm fairly certain that I'll be inundated with a series of responses, the essence of which will likely be, "durr, im a lawyer on teh intrawebz", I have something of an interest in this discussion; I go to FIU.

FIU is fully accredited by ABA and is a member in good standing of the AALS.

FIU is a 4th tier regional law school. I don't know anyone at my school that likes this curve. Many of us are aware of the letter that went out, and we joke about the fact that we doubt employers read the letter--and if they do, the consensus is that they probably don't care.

I don't think any of my classmates (at least those I speak to often) think they're going to graduate and go on to a coveted position at a Vault Top 20 school--at least not without knowing someone. I doubt any of us are particularly bothered by it.

I think the general model for seeking employment at my school is to get a job/internship/clerkship with a solo practitioner, or a local firm (including some larger firms with offices in Miami) and try to parlay that into a job after graduation.

It's hard to explain why I don't have a problem with going to a school so many of the posters here seem to think is awful--at least it's hard to explain without making it sound like "sour grapes", or resorting a bunch of ad hom attacks (which I may actually make anyway...for fun)--but I'll try. I like where I go to school, I like the majority of my professors, classes, and classmates. I like studying the law. I really, truly, honestly love paying as little as I do for my education. When someone graduates from an expensive T14 school, but can't get a job, they're substantially in the same position that someone from my school is in when they get out and can't find a job...except that the graduate from my school isn't looking at anywhere near the same kind of debt that gets racked up at many "superior" institutions.

Now the ad hom attacks:

28: I'm not sure if you were being serious--if you were, your comments were mean AND pathetic (an impressive combination given that it makes me strongly dislike and pity you at the same time.)

57: There are plenty of black and hispanic students at UM and plenty of white students at FIU. I have plenty of friends at went to UM undergrad and LS. Also, this is South Florida--the Cuban-American Bar Association is so huge that even non-Hispanics join. For better or worse we vote for judges down here, and I'm telling you that it's hard to win in most districts unless you have something Latin going on in your name. So, yeah, I think your comments (while I appreciate you saying that we're as good or better than the UM folk) misses the mark a little.

#78 see my post above (#49). The short answer is that deans don't give a sh1t about you. They've already received your money and can care less whether you can compete with those currently attending the school.

My dean's response to the fact that there needs to be a system for retroactive inflation - particularly for the unemployed class of 09: "you figure it out yourself but in the meantime, we're inflating our current student's GPA"

"NYU made things a LITTLE easier? Really Elie, I like your work, but that description is ridiculously hyperbolic. I've already shown in a prior post that NYU has a target of over 60% B+ in every class (can go even higher). That's not grade inflation, that's a farce"

NYU did only make things a little easier. It's one of the few T14 schools where a decent amount of the professors did and still do give Cs (1-4% of each class when I was in school--it appears to be 0-5% now). The current maximum for B+ and above grades is 61% with 57% the target.

A B+ curve is the norm among T14 schools and if anything NYU is tougher than similarly ranked schools (take a look at UVA's curve).

The main change for the school was an increased number of A+ grades (now a whopping 1% target).

83

It is almost like the general CNN coverage of the economic situation. What do you need to do to land a job? Think outside the box. Then they profile some random shithead who owns a fucking bakery or something that they opened when their career as an accountant hit the skids. The obvious implication being that if you are unemployed, it is still your fault because you could have easily been employeed if you simply thought outside the box. Never mind the fact that no fucking bank in the world will give me money to open a bakery given the level of debt I am carrying. Career services seems to have a substantially similar world view as CNN. Fuck them.

We seriously need an open thread on the ramifications on expatriating to avoid student debt. Does it work? What countries have the lightest immigration policies, good employment situation, Freddie Mac cant touch... etc.

79,

Hit the nail on the head. On another note, I can hear the bellows of Affirmative Walrus all the way from the beaches of Pepperdine.

We need to bomb pregnant people back to the stoneage!
-DOJ Secure

While #82 basically spelled everything out, but as a fellow FIU Law student I figured I'd chime in...

For starters, tuition at FIU hovers around $13,000 a year- put that in your pipe and smoke. Many of my classmates had the grades and LSAT scores to get into some T1 schools but we made a conscious and well-reasoned decision to go to a more affordable law school- probably a smart decision in light of the current economic climate.
Secondly, considering I attend a "regional," Tier 4 law school, I would put (most) of my professors up against any in the country. We have a healthy mix former deans, ALI members (and a couple of lifetime members), and practicing attorneys teaching us the law every day. I have very rarely (one course) felt that I was receiving an education that was anything less than excellent.
Third, the student body is generally friendly and the atmosphere is spirited and cooperative. Not a lot of sabotage going on here. And when I'm in the library pulling cases, classmates will actually go out of their way to either files your cases away for you or even bring them into the lab and ask whose they may be. Very different from the environment at a lot of T1 places I know of.
As to the curve itself, most of us hate it. I have yet to meet anyone who actually likes it, but I'm sure there is some gunner hiding in some poorly lit recess of the library that enjoys the curve and the animosity and contempt that it breeds. I myself have advocated that the curve doesn't hurt us as much as others say it does because of the superiority of class rank as a basis for comparison. However, as a few people have commented, I believe the curve serves to keep the transfer rate nice and low. Thus, the curve protects the school's interest at a substantial cost to the student body. Any way you slice, having such a low curve doesn't do any of the students any good.

Hey Jake,

I just had a 4-way with your girlfriend, your sister, and your mom at the same time in the law review office at Loyola. What did you accomplish today?

I just rubbed one out and video taped it. It was the worst mistake of my life.

Carrie

Why we are even comparing FIU and LLS is ridiculous. If an LLS grad can get into the same V10 firm in LA (maybe not NY or DC) and pay 180,000 less than the golden child who goes to a top 20 school and arrives at the same firm, in the same city...who wins? When it comes to regional placement, if you aren’t in the top 5 schools nationally, you better think twice before discounting your competition from lower ranked, tier one schools in the regions where you are seeking employment. Rather, you should probably just in general, like Kanye West, re-think your relative position and importance in the universe.

CARRIE PREJEAN SECURE

91

You are a FTT. And an asshole. But the asshole thing is less relevant than the toilet thing, because you so clearly receive the matter that comes from assholes.

Does any FIU or LLS grad work at WILDMAN HARROLD?

That should never happen.

93
*See concluding sentence of 91.

Thanks,
Everyone.

95

Dont make me knock the dick out of your mouth.

Thanks,
All not insanely self entitled people with overinflated senses of our own intelligence.

93

Hiring an FIU or LLS grad would never happen at WILDMAN HARROLD

91

Loyola is a worthless diploma mill that should be shut down. All but the top 30 law schools should be killed. And FYI, over 90% of Loyola grads do not get biglaw. Setting foot in that TTT is a retarded gamble. Even if you have a full ride plus living stipend the opportunity costs aren't worth it.

If I had it do over again I would never work at WILDMAN HARROLD

This would never hapen at Widener

Shameless action on the part of these schools. What kind of douchebag puts their GPA on their resume anyway? The only thing employers care about is class rank!!!!!! Law is a competitive, zero sum game -- there's winners and losers, and it doesn't help anyone for these PC school administrators to try to change the rules. Grade inflation says "even if you're in the bottom half, you can still feel good about how hard you worked." Bullshit. Grow a pair of balls people.

Standard curves are necessary to prevent students in the same school from trending toward "easy" classes or professors to beef up their GPA.

Beyond that, curves are meaningless. I don't even look at GPA when I'm interviewing. I care about quality of school (which includes school reputation and the firm's past experience with grads) and class rank.

Everyone gets As...we're all winners!!

Seriously, anyone who has studied in Europe and the US knows how rampant grade inflation is in the US.

In Europe an A is given for outstanding work. A B grade is considered a good grade.

In the US a B is considered mediocre and As are given out like confetti. We don't want to hurt the learner's "self esteem" do we??!

It's a joke.

I have no connection to Loyola whatsoever, but a 2.7 curve is just stupid. There must be graduates in the top 33% of the class with GPAs below 3.0. Unless I'm intimately familiar with Loyolas grading system, if I see a transcript full of twos and a GPA below 3.0 my initial impression is going to be negative.

Nobody below 50% can put thier class rank on thier resume. If an employer doesn't see the class rank or GPA on the resume, they're going to either ask for a transcript or ask the canidate what their GPA is. Having to say your GAP is a 2.7 makes you look retarded, even if that's the middle of the class.

Loyola's current curve accomplishes nothing and actually hurts students. It's also out of synch with every other law school in the country. Why the hell wouldn't they change it?

- Went to an undergrad with a sub 3.0 curve. You can imagine how that went over applying to law schools outside the region.

103 is a complete moron and doesn't understand how in a class of 50 people in law school maybe 5 people get A's and A-'s combined.

79 said it best.

Loyolas current curve might not matter for OCI, but what percentage of the class gets a job through OCI, 25%?

Who is in a better positions applying to jobs:

A student from Loyola in the bottom 50% with a 2.6 GPA; or

A student from a comparable school in the bottom 50% with a 3.2.

The latter student can just tell an employer what their respectable GPA was and say it was about average if pressed on class rank. The Loyola student has to hope and pray that the issue of law school grades never comes up (nevermind that it's what employers for that first legal job seem to care about most).

who puts gpa on a resume? put your class rank. problem solved.

The top ten averages a 3.4? The top? That must be one hellacious curve or … people really need to hit the library.

Hit the library? Do you even know how a curve works Elie?

Elie's lack of perspective and reasoning is astounding.

ATL should hire # 27 as a weekly story teller. Awesome!

27 FTW!

- not 27 either.

107,

What looks better on a resume 140/200 or 3.1? That's the issue.

#24 what the F is a T5 school?

On another note, I love the irony in the truck falling against the curve in the sign.

Oh Noes!

I'm surprised none of you chuckleheads have stated one of the most obvious reasons that lower-tier schools have such crappy curves compared to T1 schools.

In order to attract what few good students they can, lower-tier law schools offer them attractive scholarship packages. However, these "gifts" require the student to maintain a certain GPA.

To a college student, being told you get significant $$$ for keeping, say, a 3.0, sounds pretty good. Except a 3.0 at a lower tier school isn't exactly the same to earn as it was in college because of the crap grading curve.

Thus the $$$ is yanked away, the student's grades are too low to transfer, and the law school gets to claim the $$$ of another victim/sucker. It's a racket. Pure and simple. A numbers game.

Also, 27: that was hilarious.

Even in the t14, there's a decent amount of variation. Obviously, this doesn't matter at the very top. But its really important as you get into the bottom of the pack. Your 3.2 at GULC would be a 3.33 at Duke and nearly a 3.4 at Cornell.

Step down a notch to UT, and - surprise - everybody is graduating with honors this year because of a technicality!

(I hire people. I want 3 things: (1) transcript with rank (2) writing sample (3) references).

114 = correct

Curves don't matter. The only thing that matters is class rank.

If these idiot students put their class rank on their resumes, then they wouldn't have to bitch about the arbitrary number the curve is set at.

The people who bitch about "the curve" are the students who haven't done well to begin with, so they leave their class rank off their resume.

There is a simple cure for grade inflation. Look exclusively at class rank. If the school doesn't do class rank, then don't hire people from that school. There are enough top schools that do rank their students that it doesn't make sense for a law firm to take a gamble on someone whose performance is impossible to judge. I went to a T14 school, and I wouldn't trust the people who graduated in the bottom half of my class to take out my garbage. It's insane to think that merely attending a good school predicts success in big law. If firms take a stand against these absurdly arrogant grading policies the schools will eventually cave.

Disagree, I know of LLS students with very respectable class ranks but mediocre looking GPA. Rank is not the only thing that matters.

I see rigid curve requirements like this as loosely analogous to zero tolerance regimes in grade schools: they can both produce ridiculous results. One law professor with a class of 20-30 students noted that no matter how good the class was, he could only give out 2 A grades, maybe he could push it to 3. So if you happen to be in class with people who "get it", tough for you, your marks suffer on an objective basis. Contrariwise if it's a class full of idiots, the smartest idiots will get high marks. By comparison the Harvard and Stanford marking models are paragons.

If your transcript reports rankings, it's already obvious how well or poorly you did compared to others, so why not try to have a more objective marking standard or at least more flexibility in the curve?

I thought my school's 1L grading curve was bad (3.1).

There's a very easy fix for this if your school doesn't release class rankings and you're the victim of a harsh curve. On your resume, include the class mean GPA in parenthesis next to your own.

LOYOLA = FORDHAM

LOYOLA = FORDHAM

LOYOLA = FORDHAM

LOYOLA = FORDHAM

57: you obviously have never been to the UM campus to comment accurately on its student body composition. stop whining. it's unattractive.

7, SWUSL is C-.

I love commenters - like 65 - who post anonymous comments criticizing commenters who post anonymously.

Post under your real name, or GTFO.

This would help Loyola grads to compete with USC/UCLA when employers are too lazy to look at class rank. Yes, it would be a small help, but it might just be enough when applying to Fed. Gov. positions, which usually have a GPA cutoff requirement.

It seems to me common-sensical that the median GPA of each law school class should be pegged to its median UGPA. Employers are trying to distinguish between candidates that come from several schools, and students are accustomed to a certain grade range. Preserving some of the class differentiating factors both makes employers' jobs easier and reduces psychic shock on the student.

This comment is addresed to Loyola students (if anyone is still reading this post):

I know that the reason for this demand is that a majority of you (probably 80% of the class) do not have jobs. You think that if the school raises its mean, and your gpa changes from a 2.7 to a 3.2, it will improve your chances in finding employment. I agree that it won't hurt your chances, although it will have minimal effect on your class rank. The problem, however, is that the benefit is merely speculative. The fact is that the economy sucks, and Loyola is not highly ranked. As a result, "big law" is only interested in the top 5-10%. A .3 change in your gpa won't really change that. As far as other firms and govt scholarships, it might help.

But I think that rationale is a smoke screen. The reality is that you didn't well at Loyola, you don't have a job, and now you want the administration to fix the problem. Yet this fix WILL CERTAINLY punish those who did perform well at Loyola, and will change their gpa and class rank retroactively. That's messed up. This is isn't communism, this is law school, and only the ones who are willing to put in those extra hours deserve the reward.

I know a majority of those clamoring for the curve change didn't appreciate the gravity of 1L. They didn't do the reading, didn't show up to class or spent the whole class on gmail, and partied a little too much.

A lot of the people who might benefit from this curve change are my friends, so if the change really will help them, then I support it. I just don't think it's fair that those of us who REALLY worked hard during 1L year are going to suffer b/c everyone else refuses to face the real world - if you want to succeed, you have to earn it.

Univ. of Alabama changed curve from 2.7 to 3.3.

Loyola 3L here, 114 and 131 have hit the nail on the head.

I came into Loyola with a scholarship requiring that I keep a 3.3. Seemed pretty simple until I learned that the curve makes that extremely difficult to consistently achieve. As a result, I got a 3.2, lost my scholarship, and now have a crappy job lined up at a small firm where I will be barely making enough to live and the student loans I had to incur as a result of losing the scholarship.

If I could do it over again I would not have gone to Loyola. I am one of the lucky students to actually have a job, albeit a crappy one. Almost everyone at this school came into it with the idea that they would get to work in BIGLAW, but almost nobody was able to pull it off.

at least u have a job 133

120 - Did some research. Loyola actually has flexibility built into the curve already for 2Ls and 3Ls. Where the class size is 30 and below, and the median grade is above the prescribed B/B- average, then the registrar and professor has the option of increasing the class mean to a B/B+ average. So if the class is filled with gunners, the average grade rises as well. 1L courses employ a slightly lower average, for a reason that I do not know. Maybe Loyola should just move to a class rank system without GPA cause its impossible for an employer to compare a Loyola 2.666 with a USC 3.333.

133 - obviously you placed top 10%, and i think that cum laude distinction says more than mere GPA numbers. The GPA change is meant to help the middle of the pack. And good overall hiring of Loyola students benefits ALL Loyola students you selfish SOB. Law students should earn their grades but not be penalized by irrational grade comparisons with other schools.

120 - Did some research. Loyola actually has flexibility built into the curve already for 2Ls and 3Ls. Where the class size is 30 and below, and the median grade is above the prescribed B/B- average, then the registrar and professor has the option of increasing the class mean to a B/B+ average. So if the class is filled with gunners, the average grade rises as well. 1L courses employ a slightly lower average, for a reason that I do not know. Maybe Loyola should just move to a class rank system without GPA cause its impossible for an employer to compare a Loyola 2.666 with a USC 3.333.

131 - obviously you placed top 10%, and i think that cum laude distinction says more than mere GPA numbers. The GPA change is meant to help the middle of the pack. And good overall hiring of Loyola students benefits ALL Loyola students you selfish SOB. Law students should earn their grades but not be penalized by irrational grade comparisons with other schools.

133,

I feel you. 3.3 at some schools is what you get for showing up. Sounds like you have to crackheads to do the same.

Brooklyn actually changed the criteria for keeping a scholarship between my 1L and 2L years - when I entered, you had to have a certain GPA. Between years one and two, the school announced that scholarship retention would be based on class rank and that "it wouldn't make that big a difference."

Regardless of where you went to law school, if you spend your workday on ATL, you are a failure.

Yes, that includes me.

Please this t14--is ludicrous.

What is the drop-off from 14 to 15-20.

When I attended SC it was ranked--14.
The top 25% from 5-14 is by-in-large fungible with the15-20. Schools want diversity, regional, racial etc.

The difference between Stanford's to 25% and USC's
is a quidity. And nobody cares about 5-14 on the West Coast.

If you want to teach or practice in flyover land or back East than SC is weaker.

Disabuse me--lets see some objective evidence how
9-14 is different than 18th. in fact it is counterproductive in CA.

ITE may be moot--I'll allow the reader to apprehend which meaning is used. And we all know how clairvoyant those admissions people are.

But it is apodictic--that t-21 and lower are infra-
humans.

So chill a little on the narcissism of small differences--unless you want to assert something objectively outcome determinable--not that Stanford has 3 point ave. higher LSAT Score--BFD.

Face it wherever you were accepted--very few were
irreplaceable in the applicant pool.

Somewhat in a Coleridge frame of mind--so any
ad homs--show your lack of culture.

140: Flagrant USC trolling. Stanford's top 25% is elite clerkship, elite firm material. USC's top 25% is middling clerkship (if any), good (but mostly CA-only) firm material. And yes, they care about T14 schools on the west coast. California isn't Florida where you have to go to a local school like UM or UF to practice at a firm there.

And, some objective evidence how 9-14 is different from 18 is the admissions numbers and the placement statistics of the schools. The placement data is harder to compare, but here's the admissions data for two 9-14 schools and USC:
UVA: 166-170-171, 3.56-3.80-3.89
Georgetown: 166-169-170, 3.43-3.65-3.79
USC: 165-166-167, 3.48-3.60-3.71

In other words, the top USC student is equal to a below average LSAT, average GPA Georgetown student. And GULC is in the T14 cellar -- the comparisons only get more unfavorable as you move up the rankings. Also, the CA market is saturated with UCLA, USC, etc. grads. You're delusional if you think a firm is going to take a USC applicant over a similar or even somewhat weaker T14 one.

Lastly, re: 3 LSAT points not making much of a difference -- fine, that's true for one given applicant, but when you take that across a whole school, it means something. Let's say we're talking about a class of 300 and one point per question (which is about right for the middle range of LSAT scores) -- that's an aggregate 900 additional questions that USC students got wrong that T14 students got right. The GPA differences would be even larger.

Look, you couldn't get into Stanford or Berkeley and you had to settle with USC. USC isn't a bad school, but you're absolutely delusional if you think there's no difference between the three and that USC deserves to be in the top school discussion.

Stanford 4-eyed troll:

Your are using self-serving generalizations. What is the
operational or functional difference of a 3-4 point LSAT gap. Yes its higher--and non-analytic types think it means a great deal. It does in the rankings--and it is harder to get in these top schools.

But this becomes circular reasoning--oh hes bright because he got in which is ranked so high. Why ranked so high--oh because of the LSAT scores.
Got diminishing returns or elective affinities?
And the clerkship issue is a function of this.

Ok there is a branding-I was a white guy living in LA. No harrowing narrative--did not game the system. No test prep.

I was competitive for anywhere--Phi Beta, 1st in Class undergrad--so get over yourself and your failure at illogical. The degree you make a generalization precludes relevant and critical particularities.

My mentor was 1st in his class and did not get in to UCLA--where he had his masters.

I was accepted by the only 2 schools I would attend--UCLA and SC.

142: Just because you finished first in your class and got PBK does not make you "competitive for anywhere." Based on your unwillingness to leave the LA area, I'm guessing you went to some average to mediocre school there. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. And, the same applies for your mentor -- he could have been number one at a community college in LA. Why should that compel UCLA Law to take him? Without the names or ranks of your schools, your accomplishments can't be put into proper perspective.

And, if you insist on living in such a bubble -- refusing to even consider law school elsewhere, then nothing about rankings, or anything else outside of LA should matter to you. You're an LA-lifer, you went to the second best law school there, kudos to you. You can think what you want about how USC and UCLA Law are the be-all, end-all, as good as any T14 school, as good as Stanford, etc. Everyone else disagrees though. You're on a website focused on overall law school and law firm prestige. If all you can think about is LA and the west coast, then you shouldn't talk about anything outside of that bubble of yours.

143--yes Phi Beta and 1st in class
does not make one competitive--arrant brilliance.

Also I do not think CC colleges rank a person--maybe you're more familiar--but a well played assumption. Hell you are on a roll.

You speak 1000 words of stupidity in 1 post. So being 1st in your class and Phi Beta is neutral or worse. You impute characteristics that are self-serving and have the value nearly as much as your self-worth--a half-penny. And equally accurate.

Why do the same firms recruit at the same top 20 schools. Yes you have to be in the top 1/4 from SC
whereas a top 4 school can be in the top 1/3 to 1/2.

There are advantages and disadvantages to any top 20 school. Do you for instance think to top5% of any of these classes are highly skilled inter-personally? Rainmaker or

This illustrates my point: it is the content--not the container that matters.

Clever by 1/3 if you're lucky.

You have to bend over backwards with assumptions to attack me and "try" to advance your position. But you end up where you started: a crippled person bending over--is that your usual posture?

You do it very well.

If you learn anything learn that top 20 admissions save for a small fraction are not a science or an art. These schools are under and over-inclusive in admittance of some legal Platonic ideal.

And than you have to impute falsities to me in a
pathetic attempt to build your position. WTF kind of argument is that?-- Oh a straw-man.

My point was to get you out of the bubble--but like Plato's cave dwellers--the light only blinds you more--ouch!

UCLA is a prole-school. Where did Estrich, Sullivan, Chemer. Epstein and the dean of U-V et aliae teach? Ok this was illogical but heuristic.

But I digress--your point is thundering--you speak from the heavens--but have feces in your mouth.

Your are insecure--and rankings make you feel good about yourself. Are you the star at 1-2 school? Fuk no--nor would you be at any other top 20.

Damn the facts that state even at the UG level--the top students at a lower State School v. an elite College perform similarly.

Generally academics is where the lower or middle class can break from their throwness.

The problem for you is the facts: there is so much inter-school variance as intra-school variance. But the top is the top.

And as my significant-other Surgeon would say when dealing with generalities--for the individual it is 0 or 100%. And that is the crux.

Yes LA is such bubble to live in--you probably don't even know how stupid this sounds. Would LA not be in most persons top 14 list--ha ha.

I think a good primer on logic would be almost as good for your development as Mr. Carnegie"s ouevre.

You have the looks of Socrates and the brain of Adonis. You are a monad without a gonad.

Educated but unlettered--good luck in life. If you're next to me at a dinner party--guess what? You lose on every level.

estivn o katarate

Troiani sunt magni et invict--je pense

144, you are a complete joke. I feel so bad for your "significant other" proctologist boyfriend. Your pathetic and excessive diatribe has revealed so much about who you really are.

It is clear that you are a shallow, empty, and unfulfilled little person. You were pushed around and bullied by your peers throughout childhood and adolescence. These painful experiences have driven you to become a lawyer, but you are still so unfulfilled and scarred from all the beatings you received.

You now try to compensate for the vast emotional emptiness inside you by making yourself feel intellectually superior to others. Now that you have a safe environment to air your grievances, you take full advantage and attempt to cut others down in an attempt to make yourself feel vindicated and justified as a success.

Do yourself a favor and go see a therapist. He or she will be able to help you with your inner turmoil. Until you do so, you will continue living your life as a miserable, depressed douche.

144, using big words and cultural allusions every other sentence neither makes you a good writer nor smart. In fact, it's quite the opposite, as the smart person knows when to throw in such references and when they just make his argument obtuse and less persuasive. I knew someone like you in college, and he was regularly laughed at by everyone, including the professors.

Also, there's this thing called the paragraph -- used to group sentences of a common thread. Perhaps you should learn how to use it. Posts that span over a page aren't viewed very sympathetically -- they're either not read (the good old TLDR) or ruthlessly mocked like yours has been.

145 & 146 FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

145 & 146 FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

145 and 146--if not the same peson
cut from the same cloth.

Sorry that to fetal position--you assert
more meaninglessness. Ad hominems
are for the tyro--and these are not big words--
assuming you were educated and lettered.

Let me guess: dad owned some small business. Going to a school X--would elevate you out of the culvert--where behind the dynamite shack you and your copy of jugs had many a time.

Please respond with factual assertion--with a serviceable riposte.

The same firms recruit at the same t-20 schools.

Sure at the top 3 you can be in the top 1/2 and the other schools require a higher standing.

Which is the crux: the top 20-25% at SC matches up well with most at any other school.

Of course you load your premise with -14 schools that are LSAT number whores--but look at CAL
top 1/4 their functionally equivalent to top1/4 at SC.

I know this is somewhat of a solipsistic website--but fight logic with logic.

Facts with facts. Hopefully wisdom will come with age. Sorry these words seem big to you--but I am not only educated--but lettered.

Read some analytic philosophy or Wittgen.v1 not 2.

149, SIGH. Once again, speaking in verse without any sort of organization or paragraphs makes you sound like a pompous buffoon. And, tyro, lettered, culvert, riposte, solipsistic -- we get it, you like using fancy words, but to the rest of us, you sound like a moron who never learned how to write appropriately. Throwing out every highbrow word you know does not make you sound intelligent, but insecure.

We've gone over this top 25% at USC vs. most at other schools myth. The bottom 25% at most T14s had better numbers than the top 25% at USC. This is why most firms would rather take a middling T14 student vs. a top 25% USC student. Change the number to top 10% USC student, and you might have a little bit better of an argument because then you're including people on law review, etc.

P.S. I really hope you're not a practicing lawyer, because if you write this way to your clients or other lawyers at your firm, you'd be summarily fired. People don't want to decipher lyrical poetry or a list of the random highbrow words you know to figure out what you're trying to say exactly.

And re: Cal, the main reason their LSAT numbers suck is because they largely ignore it in order to practice affirmative action post Proposition 209. They largely compensate by being insanely stringent on GPA -- if you don't have over a 3.8, you have very little chance of getting in. In fact, Cal's 25% GPA is equal to USC's 75% GPA, and Cal's median LSAT is equal to USC's 75% LSAT.

144/149 writes like a computer program...that is infected by a virus of incompetence and insecurity.

Take 145's advice and go see a therapist.

As a former FIU law student who was kicked out for having a 2.0...knowing that I would have had a better GPA at a BETTER SCHOOL pisses me off. FIU has an elitist curve and has a reputation and network at bottom of the barrel for law schools in the nation. I wish I would have accepted Stetson's offer.

As a former FIU law student who was kicked out for having a 2.0...knowing that I would have had a better GPA at a BETTER SCHOOL pisses me off. FIU has an elitist curve and has a reputation and network at bottom of the barrel for law schools in the nation. I wish I would have accepted Stetson's offer.

Big words--gee that sounds relative. Only big words to those with a smaller vocab. Are you in good company or bad? Biz major--ha ha

Try opening your mind--read the TLS.

Don't fear your betters--and pathetically resort to the insecurity argument--that cuts both ways.

You are rabidly defending the t14 as a difference in kind. Are you insecure because of this? You are so deluded no hypocrisy is detected. Think.

Let me guess daddy owned a laundromat or tiny store. You study all day and night. No culture, no opera, no trips to Europe or Tahiti.

The Ritz is a cracker.

Timex not Rolex.

PROLE

155, yet another epic fail.