Susanna Dokupil got a 147 on her LSAT.

My lord, I feel for these idiots and where they'll be in 3 years - minimal job prospects and 6 figure loan.

As long as idiots will pay six figures for the Cooleys of the world this trend will continue.

Above and beyond the lack of jobs and incredible amount of debt is the perception that this is a fast and exciting career. I don't mind my job, but let's be honest, there are days when professoring (summer vacations) or analyst careers sound real good.

here come the lemmings! JD Underground would love this

Suck my ass, Mystal, you race bating, white baby devouring, WALRUS!

Interesting that Hank White was forced out yesterday as Executive Director of the ABA. Perhaps the ABA will mend its ways, institute some meaningful standards, and revoke the accreditation of the marginal law schools it has approved over the past ten years. I'm specifically referring to schools such as Regents, Ave Maria, Appalachia, Atlanta's John Marshall Law School, Charleston School of Law, Charlotte School of Law, Drexel University Earle Mack College of Law, Elon University School of Law, Faulkner University Thomas Goode Jones School of Law, University of LaVerne College of Law, Liberty University School of Law, and Phoenix School of Law.

Students can take multiple LSATs. The chart does not show the number of students, but the number of tests taken. With law schools becoming competitive, it only makes sense that students will take the test more than once. Also, law schools are willing to take the "highest" score, rather than the first or an average, further encouraging students to take the LSAT early and often.

this is the start of the "boomerang" generation enterting law school- it will peak in 2 years

govt secure

Elie, we all know that these people have nothing to do with us. These not-yet-1Ls won't get into the job market for four years.

yeah, keep telling yourself that, 9

Most of these people are fucking themselves over, but are blissfully ignorant of that fact.

I have a friend that has a degree in economics from Oxford. I tried to convince her that law school was a bad idea, but she thought that somehow a JD would make her more valuable. She's doing applications right now. Sigh.

14 - Once upon a time that was true. Like 10 to 15 years ago, Not anymore though.

Fools

60,746 enter the steel octagon... the last one to leave alive gets the single Biglaw job offer. No holds barred.

GO!

Err, am I the only one that thinks this is much more a statement on the recession than a comment on the stupidity of those applying to law school? I took the LSAT after the dot com bust, and that time it was also a record for LSATs taken- this was back in 2001.

can't anyone tell these people what they are getting into?? Someone stop this madness.

9 is right. There is no longer a downside to taking the LSAT more than once (other than enduring the test more than once). This is a recent change. Odds are that the number of people taking the test is increasing, but not by as much as this graph would make you believe. There are other factors at play here.

This just tells me how uninformed college seniors are these days. Anyone looking at the legal market right now would know that unless you are going to a top tier law school and planning to do well, you are not going to get a job that will pay off your loans.

11 - Not only that, but I don't care how smart some of these students are, they're not going to graduate, hang up a shingle and immediately start competing with Wachtell for banking deals.

In order to compete in the kinds of specialities BigLaw practices, you almost have to go into BigLaw, a prestigious government agency or a quality boutique, and the number of those jobs isn't getting any bigger (to put it mildly). The only things the flood of applicants will do is (i) push most students further down the foodchain in the quality of school they attend and quality of job they get upon graduation and (ii) allow those of us in BigLaw to recruit 2Ls with slightly less terrible credentials. Since the number of law school slots is relatively fixed (in the short term) the number of people whose lives will be ruined by crushing debt will thankfully remain about the same.

Bring on the flood.

Just as long as top law school dont increase their class sizes this shouldn't have much of an affect on BigLaw. The competition will be stiffer for the applicants but wont have an impact on graduates.

The ship be sinking...

At least we can adequately predict that the next recession will be triggered by billions of dollars of defaults on federally-guaranteed student loan debt, much like the mortgage-based overindulgence that caused this one.

Investment tip: BUY MORE GOLD.

This proves, once again, that the most stable form of legal employment is becoming a scumbag law school administrator immune to economic pressures from clients or profit-seeking partners. The cash cow of financial aid will flow the coffers of law schools while saddling even more members of Gen Y with six figures of debt.

By the way, the article linked to is dumb. How is this a problem for BigLaw? This has NOTHING to do with recent changes in fee structures or the supposed need of law firms to rethink their billing models. Nothing.

Why am I not surprised that Elie went to see 2012?

I went to Haverford, but bombed my LSAT- do I have a shot at a T1?

Law school classes are not getting larger, they're just getting less selective.

22 and 23- -correct

I'm sure a lot of these test takers see the news or read ATL but convince themselves that there will be another boom by the time they graduate. In the meantime, they figure it's better to be in school than trying to find a good job. Unfortunately, there appears to be quite a lot more contraction/deflation coming to the legal industry. I would not want to wager a six-figure debt on the prospects of a booming job market three years from now.

29: No.

Mystal only passed the LSAT because he ate the proctor and then cheated off of the Asian kid sitting next to him.

The Asian Kid

28 here, p.s. Elie, a less geeky reference to Oliver Platt saying the SAME LINE would have been Executive Decision.

That is all.

9 and 20 are complete idiots.

More students are trying to go to law school for all sorts of horrible reasons. These students are either ill-advised, naive, overly optimistic, and/or just suckers.

29 -- even if you hadn't bombed the LSAT you would still have no chance from a liberal arts TTT like that.

29 - that you ask an even remotely serious-sounding question on this forum indicates that, at the very most, you have the smarts for a top flight job in either the food service or house cleaning industries.

well. done.

29 - do you mean that you went to Haverford *AND* you bombed the LSAT? Two strikes - you are out.

The chickens are coming home to roost in the educational industrial complex. The 70s through early 2000s were an anamoly. Everything our generation has come to expect as normal career development (do really well in high school, go to a good college and get really good grades, go to a professional school) has always been unnatural. The higher education system is one huge inefficiency that has been sucking the life out of students and their families for the past 30+ years. College is nothing but an expensive 4-5 year vacation from the real world. Unless one learns a skill, it is a waste of everyone's time and money. This bureaucratic monster answers with angry moral retorts anytime anyone questions whether higher education is really a good thing when all the costs and benefits are weighed.

Oddly enough, early LSN acceptances/rejections don't seem to be any different than last year's numbers, or the numbers of the years before.

Worth noting.

Hi,
I am looking for investors. I want to set-up a 8th tier law school in my basement.

13 speaks 100% truth. Most of these people haven't given a whit of thought to the massive debt they'll be carrying. Even for the economically savvy, there's a world of difference between thinking "oh, I'll have $125,000 in debt" and the actual reality of having $1000+ a month in student loan payments for the rest of your middle aged life.

What's really interesting about this story is how closely an increase in LSAT tests taken correlates with a down economy.

1) Late 80's early 90's saw a marked increase.
2) Tests decreased and stayed low during the '90s.
3) Starting around 2000 (beginning of dot com burst) tests increased again.
4) Mid 2000s tests decreased (roaring financial economy)
5) Tests shot up at the beginning of this recession (2008).

That's a pretty good match if you ask me.

60,746 people enter -- one person leaves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuRde4VxH4I&feature=related

60,746 people enter -- one person leaves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuRde4VxH4I&feature=related

the idiots bashing 29 need a lesson about satire.

we must all spread the word that law school will lead to misery, and only misery.

O-M-F-G. If ever we needed further proof of the sheer stupidity of this youngest generation coming up. Have they learned nothing from those that have gone before them?!? Guaranteed that 75%+ of these morons have no real interest in practicing law, or what it takes. They're just used to being full-time students and can only think to continue being that vs. finding a job in this economy. Plenty on mommy and daddy's dime too, I'll bet. Meanwhile, these a$$holes using law school and a JD as a "I don't know what to do with my life" fallback, nice-to-have option with dreams of winning BigLaw lottery tickets are f*cking those of us already out here and really trying to make it! Cripes, this is such sh*tty news. Just when the legal market MIGHT be stablizing and coming out of this recession in 2-3 yrs, the flood of these jerkoffs will slam us back down again. My only hope for all our salvation is that the majority of these people either are weeded/failed out of law school or drop out willingly before the have the chance to do real market damage.

I dont feel bad for these morons. I went to a state law school on 3/4 ride and will graduate with 15 k in debt. Do I have a job with a big firm? No. Am I laughing my ass off at all you T-14ers thinking about killing yourself? Yes, yes I am.

36.. you say 20 is wrong. Are you arguing that there was not recent change to allow reporting of only the highest score? Because that happened.

"One of these days, somebody is going to create some actual “pre-law” standards and prerequisites. That will make law school something more than everybody’s safety plan."

What about patent attorneys? Pre-law doesn't really cut it in that field.

#34 Asian know lot about law and fix computer too. Very fast very fast

As usual, Elie isn't capable of making even a rudimentary statistical analysis. It's all, "MAYBE IF I SHOUT LOUDER, I CAN GENERATE MORE OUTRAGE."

First, LSAT taking data is worthless. What matters is LSAC matriculation data, ABA first-year class data, and ABA degrees awarded data.

Second, there was a 17% increase in repeater LSAT test-takers last year. I imagine the increase will continue as more individuals take advantage of the opportunity to take the LSAT multiple times.

Why don't you chill out and report some actually f***ing news rather than splashing someone else's meaningless graphic and flip out.

Elie,

Keep up the good work (seriously). If you keep it up, eventually these kids may get the message that for most of them law will be a debt-ladden dead end.

Asians reary rikey taking tests. We so good at it.

I triple majored in English, History, and Communication. Do I have a shot at getting a job?

While the legal market is definitely shrinking right now, I am not sure this is such a bad gamble for students long term. Those aging boomer partners are getting up there in years and we are going to see thousands of them retiring in the next decade or so. Seems like an opportunity to me for new lawyers to fill the ranks.

My comment, however, is not meant to endorse scumbag law schools who gouge students with outrageous tuition and offer little hope to students for a decent payday to wipe out the debts the schools force the students to incur. In that regard, Mystal, I am with you.

Well, maybe that's fine.

Many of these people are not going to be practicing law in the future anyway, because there is only so much demand for legal services. That sucks for the people on the low end, but they'll find a job in something else.

Sure, maybe it creates more competition for those biglaw jobs, but at the same time, the demand remains the same. The talented have little to fear from the increase in LSAT's.

They have more to fear from the global economic crisis, which...has it ended yet?

Retired partner here: Talking about the "boomerang" generation, I know two couples with college grad boys who live at home. The guys are upper 20s and still living at home. They aren't turds or retards. Both guys are now applying to law school. This was after having tried to get into med school, then dental school, then vet school, all while having great jobs as bartenders. They're smart and should score very well on the LSAT. Three years from now, the losers will be lawyers.

Thank god for chapter 33. Thank you atl commentors for paying my tuition. (assuming you pay taxes.)

When the economy sucks, people think staying in school for another three years is a good idea. Its not.

I think admission to law school should be strictly based on objective merit. This should produce law grads that are 99% white or asian, probably 60% to 70% female, and more prepared to be lawyers. What really bothers me is to see the high percentage of guys who have been turned into total losers by the educational system. Who really wants a world where women are in the clear majority in the Boardroom.

8,

Ave Maria, Regents and Liberty have veery good reputations and very high pass rates on bar exams; or do you have a problem with good, solid Christian law schools.

The Dean at Liberty is Matt Staver, and he almost always wins agains the ACLU types and schools that try to deny the constitutional rights of those they represent in his role as an attorney at Liberty Counsel.

I am hung like a horse.

I don't necessarily disagree with the other comments, but I want to point out one thing that everyone is missing: The number of LSAT-takers has actually gone down slightly since 1990. 152,665 people took the test in 1990/1991 - according to "Most Strongly Supported" - whereas 151,398 took the test last year, a decline of under 1%. Meanwhile, the US population increased by about 20% (from 250 to 300 million) and the S&P increased nearly 230% over the same period. Things are not good now - not nearly as good as they were a year ago - but I don't buy the supply/demand doom and gloom over the long term. It makes a nice story but the facts (as usual) get in the way.

The reason so many college grads want to go to law school is because that's where the money is. As long as 10% or 20% of law grads can make large salaries, people will flock to law school. With ObamaCare, it won't be possible to make good money as a doctor, and all those pre-med types will be applying to law school instead.

I think it's unfair of everyone to bash law students like all students are the same. I'm a 3L in an evening law program, and I, along with most of my classmates, are pursuing our education while working in a full-time job. While I'll graduate with debt, it will be nowhere near what I would have graduated with had I done a full-time, three year program.

Most of my classmates are also older than the average day student, and have taken time off between college and law school. Their choice to return to school is a conscious choice, and life as an evening student is no picnic -- it's not like another three years of college like it is for many day students. As a result, evening students also tend to have a pretty good idea of what they'd like to do when they graduate. Many of my friends are CPA's, or have PhD's in a hard science, and are getting a JD specifically as a supplement to their current work in finance or patent law.

My point is, not all students are created equally. Is the influx of LSATs a symptom of the current economy? I'm sure it is, without a doubt. I'd be petrified to be 22 and graduating from college this year. But people in every generation have made some pretty stupid mistakes when it comes to finances over the last decade, and it's not fair to demonize young law students.

29 - ignore the insults re Haverford. It's a great school, especially if you ran track or cross country. But I digress.

As for law school, surely you can think of something more creative to do with your life. Law is a dead end. THERE ARE NO JOBS. NONE!

You will likely go deeply into debt and be lucky to find a job paying $75K.

In the alternative, if you truly can find nothing better to do, my advice is to let the law schools make your decision for you. In other words, if you get into a T14 school (nothing lower), then go and good luck (you still probably won't be able to find a job that will allow you to service your education debt, but whatever). If the T14s reject you, then accept the fact that law isn't going to work out for you and find something else that really interests you.

Haverford? I barely knew 'er.

29: Do you think Haverford is a good school? If you do, you are delusional. Try an Ivy League place next time.

9 is right, the data proves it:

http://members.lsac.org/Public/MainPage.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fPrivate%2fMainPage2.aspx

ABA appliants have not increased proportionately, just more people (re-)taking the LSAT. Why research an article when the commenters will do it for you?

Why are black people such bad employees?

71, what is the lead time between an LSAT boom and an application boom? I assume that the latter echoes the former.

When I applied, many moons ago, I think that I took the LSAT in June, applied in August/September, and started receiving acceptances in mid-November.

I fear that ATL has jumped the shark. The comments which originally came from practicing attorneys gradually became comments from law students pretending to be practicing attorneys, and how have become comments from undergrad students pretending to be practicing attorneys.

I'm going to have my 12 year-old nephew start commenting and pontificating about the legal job market woes. Surely he could play as convincing a lawyer as any of these 0L assclowns.

63,

Those Christian schools are only good when there is a Republican administration and they can get jobs that would otherwise go to top 10 law school grads.

Do you think a Monica Goodling could even sniff a job like principal deputy director of public affairs for the United States Department of Justice, were it not for the RNC's evagelical love?

But hey we need more WASP affirmative action.

63 -

Two things are obvious from your post: (1) English is your second language; and (2) you lack reading comprehension skills. Matt Staver is a hick lawyer and a religious ideologue. He knows little, if anything, about running a law school. The first dean was the one who got the school provisional ABA accreditation. After he got Liberty through the initial process, Jerry Fawell fired him because he did not hew closely enough to the faith. Liberty will never become fully accredited under Staver.

- 8

Isn't it possible, or even likely, that student loans that pay for law school will eventually become like sub-prime mortgages? As more and more law students graduate with ever increasing debt and with less means to repay such debt, it seems inevitable that there will be a huge upsurge in the defaults on student loans. At some point, even with government guarantees, won't this simply become a very bad business to be in? Hopefully, if the loans become tied to the ability to repay them, such loans will become harder to get and the number of fools enrolling in law school will decrease as well. Just a thought.

Isn't it possible, or even likely, that student loans that pay for law school will eventually become like sub-prime mortgages? As more and more law students graduate with ever increasing debt and with less means to repay such debt, it seems inevitable that there will be a huge upsurge in the defaults on student loans. At some point, even with government guarantees, won't this simply become a very bad business to be in? Hopefully, if the loans become tied to the ability to repay them, such loans will become harder to get and the number of fools enrolling in law school will decrease as well. Just a thought.

Do some research. 9 is correct. The change in rules for multiple LSATs "just so happens" to coincide with this "increase."

29,

Don't listen to the imbeciles on this board, Haverford is fine. I went to a similar PA lib arts school and managed T10. My GPA was around 3.7 but I had worked three years in Wall St before applying. If your GPA is on the lower side, try to work for a year or two before applying. As others have said before, good schools like that.

Good luck!

9, 20, and most recently, 71:

Having a larger number of LSAT takers necessarily means that there are more aspiring 1Ls. Sure, there may be repeats, but the only people who repeat are the ones who didn't actually enter law school. So while the figure doesn't represent the number of brand new prospective 1Ls, it does show that on the whole, right now, more people are considering going to law school than ever before.

Larger total applicant pool, 1st time or otherwise, means more potentials 1Ls, which is likely to mean more 1Ls in a time when there really should be far fewer.

63- Christian or not, those schools are all shit.

Just about all post-secondary schools are bursting at the seems right now, tech schools to law schools. Do a quick google news search and you'll see dozens of articles today alone. Unemployment = spike in new students.

67 - agreed re evening students

81:

65 here. Look at the numbers; even with multiple test-takers, the number of people sitting for the LSAT has dropped slightly since 1990. The numbers don't lie - over the long term, there have been fewer aspiring 1Ls. Your statement "more people are considering going to law school than ever before" is obviously false. See post 65 for details.

IF you're a currently practicing lawyer, you shouldn't worry about how many 1Ls enter the pipe. You're not competing with them.

If you're a potential 1L, you shouldn't worry how many 1Ls enter the pipe. There is already a fixed number of non-crappy jobs, which is small relative to the number of lawyers being produced. If you are headed to a crappy law school, an increase in the number of people who will go on to get crap degrees will leave you only modestly more screwed than you are now.

81:

65 here. Look at the numbers; even with multiple test-takers, the number of people sitting for the LSAT has dropped slightly since 1990. The numbers don't lie - over the long term, there have been fewer aspiring 1Ls. Your statement "more people are considering going to law school than ever before" is obviously false. See post 65 for details.

63,

Clearly you are correct about the quality of those schools. Their admission decisions are not determined by GPAs and LSAT scores, which are culturally biased against evangelical christians and roman catholics.

77/78,

You can't default on student loans.

Why do Black people like Timberlands so much?

Has the day come that my dollar will not only get my windows washed at a stop light but will include legal advice as well?

Why all the comments on 29? Am I missing something? Clearly meant to be a joke, not a serious question.

Why do white men kidnap, rape, and murder little white girls?

IF you're a currently practicing lawyer, you shouldn't worry about how many 1Ls enter the pipe. You're not competing with them.

If you're a potential 1L, you shouldn't worry how many 1Ls enter the pipe. There is already a fixed number of non-crappy jobs, which is small relative to the number of lawyers being produced. If you are headed to a crappy law school, an increase in the number of people who will go on to get crap degrees will leave you only modestly more screwed than you are now.

93--Probably because they are mentally ill, or at least sociopaths.

Next Question.

You are going to have to wait for a big wave there Shamu, while the SS Elie may be buoyant, I'd bet it has a deep draft.

@93 - Whats wrong with that?

29 -

I went from Haverford straight to a T5 law school, federal clerkship, etc., etc.

(For all the haters out there, say what you will, but if a Haverford degree is good for nothing else, it is like catnip for grad schools. Almost all of my friends went on to get MDs, JDs, and MBAs from top programs.)

But, 29, the LSAT is important, if not the most important thing. So, if you really want to do it, I would say prepare harder, take the LSAT again, and get a score that demands attention. Also try to get more work experience before applying. (I know, easier said than done in this economy).

But if law is just your default plan, simply don't do it. You’ll end up disliking your job and resenting your loans.

BUT, 68 is right. Don't go below T14. Just don't do it. Now, you can't say you haven't been warned . . . twice. Good luck!

why do black and Hispanic assailants account for 98% of the gun crimes in New York City?

Is Haverford an all girls school?

Why do white men kidnap little white girls, chain them in the backyard, and rape them two or three times a day, even when they are pregnant with the rapist's child?

77/78, student loans are like sub-prime in the sense that the whole debacle was fueled by the government deciding to make homes/college affordable for everyone. The immediate and inevitable result was to make homes and college far less affordable for everyone. Thanks, Uncle Sam.

Yes, there will be many thousands of people who can't pay back those student loans, and maybe Elie will get his wish and the rules will be changed to allow discharge in bankruptcy. Better yet, maybe we'll save everyone the embarrassment of bankruptcy and just let the government write checks to cover everyone's debt. Wouldn't that be swell?

63,

There are some "good" Christian schools. Georgetown comes to mind. SMU is a decent school (if you want to be in Dallas). Even DePaul in Chicago is a solid Tier 2 school (if SmallLaw litigation or local government work is your thing).

But the schools you listed are crappy. They are all Tier 4, and I would wager they have some of the lowest employment figures of any law school in the country.

92 - I'm with you. Lots of potential 1Ls getting trolled today.

-federal clerk secure (at least for the next 18 months!)

76 - First, that was hilarious. Second, while I think you're probably right in general, I would add that I've actually practiced briefly with a Regents grad-he wasn't bad at all. And this was sophisticated, relatively high profile legal work.

He was definitely super Christian conservative but he knew I wasn't, and I appreciated that he kept it to himself and never made his faith an issue in the office.

More people are applying to law school. All you have to do is look back at the prior reports here on ATL or talk to law school administrators. The fact of the matter is that more people are taking the gamble that law school is for them. It is a stupid bet but hey, so was thinking that your house would continue to increase in value 20% every year.

89, no you can't technically default on student loans. However, if more and more people can't make the payments, it becomes a big issue at some point.

NY to guaranteed internship + stipend!!!

Like lambs to the slaughter.
The people making money from this racket should feel shame.

Like lambs to the slaughter.
The people making money from this racket should feel shame.

As a practicing attorney at a major law firm (peer firm from a peer school mind you) that none of your arse that touch with a pole, I must say,

BURN neanderthals BURN.

I think I'm going to vomit.

F Big law Big schlaw, Im in FI-NANCE woot woot!

48 sounded a bit bitter. As a current law student, i was just curious if someone could either confirm or deny the constant "rumor" that only kids with a connection get good jobs anymore out of school (almost regardless of grades).... is this truly the case for us non-top 5%'ers?

77/78; 102: "Default" just means that you don't meet your obligation; i.e., you fail to pay the amount when it becomes due. Obviously, by definition, you can default on a government-backed student loan, although it is true that such debt is not erased as a home loan would be through the foreclosure/bankruptcy process.

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/DCS/index.html

67 -- You, sir, are the problem. Any law school that has a night program is, by definition, a crappy law school. You are going to end up with a worthless degree.

Elie, next time you give away the ending to a movie, can you please include a spoiler alert?

114 is basically right. Student loan debt is generally not dischargeable in bankruptcy, absent very extenuating circumstances (i.e., almost never).

You can default (by, for example, not making payments). In that case, your credit score takes a hit, and they may come after you & garnish your wages (assuming you have a job).

Student loan debt will dog you until you die.

Or become permanently disabled, 117

The logical jump made here is laughable. The author is drawing a conclusion based on the past administration, ignoring significant factors. First, LSAC recently implemented a rule blocking students from postponing their test up until the days leading up to the exam. Second, most Law Schools now only count the highest score, meaning there is little risk in retaking. Third, the June exam had what was widely considered to be the single most difficult logic games section ever.

The stat sited here is not irrelevant, but it means little in itself. That doesn't mean that these prospective 1Ls aren't all fools; they could be. But, this stat proves little.

115, please tell Georgetown that the validity of their degrees depends on the amount of light outside the classroom. I think you'd win that... after all, it's the definition.

115, please tell Georgetown that the validity of their degree depends on the amount of light outside the classroom. I think you'd win that... after all, it's the definition.

118, they are defining "permanently disabled" very, very narrowly. As in, quadrapalegic with permanent brain damage, and with no physical way to communicate. Alzheimer's might fit the bill, Lou Gehrig's might not (b/c you can still communicate). I have heard of cases of people with severe mental illness, multiple suicide attempts, etc be denied, because "they might get better." I think under their rubric of permanently disabled, most people would rather choose death.

The best advertisement for law school is unemployment? It'd be better to steal the identity of a dead man and start a new life than go down that road.

115 just upset a lot of Georgetown grads.

The consensus of the posters seems to be that law school is a bad investment because of current market conditions. However, if I take the LSAT now and enter law school next fall, I should expect to graduate in 2014 with a JD if all goes according to plan. What impact will current market conditions have on the legal market in 2014? Is there general consensus that the legal market will be crappy in four years?

93, because they'd have to go into the ghetto to kidnap, rape, and kill black girls. Nobody wants to go to the ghetto, not even perverts.

... and by extension, 115 just upset a lot of Georgia State grads, since their night school is tied with Georgetown's night school in US News.

125

the ship done sank. the market will never recover. the legal profession -- and all other professions for that matter -- is doomed. may god have mercy on your soul.

125, yes, there is.

Sweet. With all these new applications, New York Law School will be opening its new gym and sushi bar on time in the new buildings.

Most of my successful friends are non-college grad entrepreneurs. Graduate HS, get a McDonald's franchise, then two, repeat. You'll thank me in 15 years.

125, the depression should be bottoming around 2014, but that doesn't mean there will be a booming legal job market.

101-Garrido is hispanic

You can blame the low tier 1 and tier 2s and lower as well as the second years from skadden who deem themselves worthy of being law school professors 3 years out. Hell, NYU even has a program now in becoming a law professor. its an utter joke. throngs of unsuspecting kids being taught by experience-less know it alls. its an epidemic really.

law school is now like college. everyone goes.

@ 125 -

The problem is that if you were to enter law school in the fall of 2011, those amazing jobs you hear of that pay 160K (currently) would have to be snatched up during the summer/fall of 2012. 2014 is irrelevant for purposes of getting a great job. If you are trying to get a job in 2014 or post graduation, the only jobs available for you at that point will pay you absolute shit comparative to the loans you will likely have. So the real question is whether things will have picked up by the summer of 2012.

The above comment is something that many "pre-law" students just don't understand until they are well into their first year of law school (and when it is too late).

CURRENT LAW SCHOOL PROFESSORS SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEIR LIBERAL SELVES. THEY ARE LYING....OUTRIGHT LYING TO THESE KIDS. THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED, THOSE MONEY GRUBBING DBAGS.

115--NYU Stern has a night MBA program--is that a shitty school too, you idiot?

I'm a 3L and have actively attempted to deter people from choosing law school. I hit $99K this year in loans and will probably be rocking a public defender's job at $40K a year. This is despite the qualification that, in the past, would have assured me at least a boutique or regional medium law job (rank, moot court, etc.). If the new income based repayment were not available, I'd likely be homeless in a year given that debt load. Unfortunately, while I was considering law school, which was my plan upon entering college, I was consistently assured by advisors and administrators that law school was a near guarantee of a good income, certainly sufficient to cover the debt I would be taking on to get it. The change has to come from more than just lawyers and law students bitching about these problems on blogs. A demanding undergraduate curriculum has to be developed and law schools need to start looking harder for accounting and hard sciences rather than political science and English majors (myself included).

The second aspect, is that administrators at both the undergraduate and law school levels need to stop LYING to students. Padded employment and earning numbers, false hopes of scholarship money (at state schools), and rosy projections of the legal market have led a lot of people to make this decision.

That said, I probably still would have gone. I don't come from the privileged background from which many of my colleageus have come, and I believe that people from these backgrounds have a positive impact on the law. I like my work and feel good about it, something I probably wouldn't be able to say if I'd gotten an MBA.

To 63, you're an idiot. Liberty gleans the dumbest of the pseudo-intellectual religious zealots in America and enables them to come into court with the most questionable of credentials. It's a blight. I've never been big on the pretentious characterization of the role of lawyers and all that nonsense, but Liberty is a shame to all of us.

"I don't come from the privileged background from which many of my colleageus have come, "

138--thats a fucking myth. if folks were truly "privileged" do you honestly think they'd go to law school? did Paris Hilton go to law school? uh, no.

Why do white roman catholic priests sodomize young white altar boys?

what we need in this world are more blue-collar workers, or people in the fields or farms. if people still insist on going to grad school...we need more doctors and engineers.

what we need in this world are more blue-collar workers, or people in the fields or farms. if people still insist on going to grad school...we need more doctors and engineers.

They're gonna TAKE ER JERBS!!!

@ 143.

Bravo, my friend. Brav-freaking-o!

Yeah 139/63, the way the term "privileged" was used clearly denoted heirs and heiresses to massive fortunes, and not simply people who come from white collar professional families (e.g. doctors). Anyway, if you don't believe there's a correlation between economic background and barriers to educational attainment then perhaps you should consider a career with the Palin literary team, I hear they're pros at denying well established facts.

Douchefully,
138

Abandon all hope ye who enter

131,

How would a regular non-URM high school graduate afford a McDonald's franchise? Non-URMs have to have at least $250K cash (not financed) on hand to even be considered.

Not only should people stop going to law school, but they should also stop getting worthless undergrad liberal arts degrees. Well, there should at least be a reduction in people choosing those degrees.

Where are these CHILDREN'S parents?

This is what happens when nobody gives it to them straight and says that no one in their right mind should go to law school.

136 --- I feel the same way, without the antiliberal bias. I graduated from a T25 several years back and to see some of my friends struggling is difficult. They got suckered in. I did too. I just got lucky.

I would love to see someone sue one of these schools, bring a civil RICO action or something. Depose them on how they come up with the employment numbers they submit to the ABA.

Wow. Most LSATs ever!

MysTTTal, you should thank your lucky, affirmative-action stars that you did not apply to Harvard in this environment. Imagine how many other under-qualified visible minorities you would have had to compete against (see: devour)!

The legal job market will be strong in four years. You people are naive. The negative nellies commenting here probably all graduated law school between 2003-08 and did not work between college and law school and so have never worked during a depression before.

Every time we have a recession there are Chicken Littles saying it's never going to get better. They have been wrong. If you live in Detroit or some midwestern area maybe they are going to stay dumps. But DC, NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, Texas cities are all already recovering (Texas is particularly booming) and will be even better in four years.

There will continue to be pain for a while but I'm pretty confident by 2014 we'll be back to the model where the top 75% of a T10 law school has a Biglaw job if they want it at graduation (if not before 2014).

152 here

I should have said never worked during a recession before in the first paragraph.

I know some of you think this is a depression and I made a Freudian slip but I suspect we'll see positive GDP growth in the fourth quarter (after 3.5% GDP in 3Q09) and beyond.

That 3.5% 3Q GDP that you're all excited about is 92% attributable to government spending, and it going to see a downward revision of at least a half percent.

They weren't calling it the Great Depression after a 50% stock run-up and green shoots everywhere in 1930, either.

115, a few notes:

A. I'm not a "sir," I'm a woman.

B. I agree that I'm sure you pissed off a few Georgetown alums with your comment about schools with night programs being "worthless."

C. Regarding my own "crappy" degree: Our alumni (Suffolk Law) comprise about 20% of our State Legislature and 100 of them serve in the Massachusetts judiciary. Our legal writing program was ranked 17th in the country (above Harvard's) in U.S. News last year, and we have the newest and most state-of-the-art facilities in the city.

That's it. Thanks.

115, a few notes:

A. I'm not a "sir," I'm a woman.

B. I agree that I'm sure you pissed off a few Georgetown alums with your comment about schools with night programs being "worthless."

C. Regarding my own "crappy" degree: Our alumni (Suffolk Law) comprise about 20% of our State Legislature and 100 of them serve in the Massachusetts judiciary. Our legal writing program was ranked 17th in the country (above Harvard's) in U.S. News last year, and we have the newest and most state-of-the-art facilities in the city.

That's it. Thanks.

154 - So if, as you seem to suggest, we are on the edge of a second Great Depression (or GDII if you will), why not go to law school if you have no job now, no prospect of a decent job soon and can get accepted? If everyone is up the creek without a paddle, what is a little extra debt, and earning a JD is still a safer bet than learning how to dig ditches, a skill you can pick up quickly if required to do so.

This is demographic/economic. The peak of the echo-boom is coming out of college right now. There are more kids currently enrolled in college then there have ever been before. That's why the admission rates at all of our alma maters are half of what they used to be. Plus, there are no good jobs for kids striaght out of undergrad. They're looking for something to do. I bet the numbers of people taking the MCAT, the GMAT, and the GRE have skyrocketed as well. (Of course, there haven't been mass layoffs in medicine, but still...)

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"Anyway, if you don't believe there's a correlation between economic background and barriers to educational attainment then perhaps you should consider a career with the Palin literary team, I hear they're pros at denying well established facts."

There's a connection between parental SES and education not because the poor lack opportunity, but because people from better backgrounds have higher IQs. That's why people who are poor have children who remain poor. The worst thing the parents gave them was bad genes.