Ichiban?!

Maybe they would pay associates more if they knew how to write e-mails. "We [ ] on the 30th . . . "

hayboo

$145K is a lot of scratch for Texas...

$145K will go a long way down in Texas...

I would like to kick the shit out of that bitch ass tipster. New associates in Texas should not be making more than 100k anywhere besides LockeLord Houston.

I think the Texas market is going to be in flux next year. With low offer rates and firms trying to pay NY market, it does not look good.

$145k? Really? Still too high for Texas.

4 weeks of training??? Didn't these dorks just go through 3 freakin years of 'training"? It's a sad state of affairs when you go through a 3-year vocational training program then have to go through a month of even more training at work.

I get that associates have to learn how to draft complaints, prep for depos, etc. but that stuff is best learned by DOING, not by sitting in a classroom for 4 weeks watching some idiotic ppt lecture about it,

Oh no, only 145k. What crybabies. Lemme guess... "PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY SIGNED LEASES"

Gee only $145k...in TEXAS?!?...cry me a f*ckin river.

I thought LockeLord Houston closed its doors last year.

Texas is a joke. Only total losers would take a job down there. The weather sucks, the people are stupid as hell, and the Texas women all spent time on the pole.

Wahhh!!! 145K for a stupid first year ... in Texas. Wahh!!!!! So tough to be you.

What a ridiculous sense of entitlement. "Committment to competing with other Texas firms"? Does this jackass know what other firms in Texas are paying? I'm pretty sure that outside of Susman, Weil, V&E, Bickel & Brewer and McKool, none of the firms pay $160k BASE salary in Texas-- it's usually a $140k or $145k salary with "guaranteed bonuses and stipends."

I can barely stomach the entitlement of a first year whining that his salary is $145K. I work at HB, and they've done everything they can to avoid layoffs, so these first years should be really thankful they got a job at a firm that only had to defer 2 months, and is still paying what can only be called a ridiculous salary. I'm disappointed that someone coming to work for us even has that attitude. We aren't the slave drivers some big frms are, and it's disgusting to complain about $145 when you ALSO get to have a life.

14
Very funny.

Um, making $145K in Dallas is like earning 342,392.75.00 in Manhattan. Where is this firm?!?!? And why don't I work there?

" This is the first time any of us even knew the firm was considering cutting salaries"

Were you expecting the minutes from the partner's meeting where it was first discussed?

Making 145k in Dallas is like making 345K in Manhattan.

Hard to tell if 16 is subtly trolling for Susman, Bickel, or McKool

FIRST to say "FIRST"

Why do the Locke Lord Houston offices smell like sour milk and used diapers?

Seriously who is this idiot who keeps saying ichiban? Yea! You know a japanese word!

I work in Dallas, and I can say for certain that most of the babes in the bars worked poles at some point in their lives. They also are fundies. Bible and the pole, what a combination.

TROGDOR!

As a partner at this firm I would like to say we only sent one associate the e-mail thus far of any salary cut.

@24 - Everywhere in Houston smells like that, not just Locke Lord.

Nice 28.

145 is about 100,000 more than any first year deserves unless he or she is in the top 10% at HLS.

The tipster should be paying Haynes & Boone for the opportunity to work and live near my presidential library.

I will be a summer associate at H&B next summer, I take this post as good news, I'm very surprised at the complaint.

17,
"I work at HB, and they've done everything they can to avoid layoffs,"

I'm sure the associates that were let go under the radar appreciate HB's efforts.

It smells.

More than enough for Tejas.

And you have a job at a solid Texas firm. Quit your beetching.

H&B will have to cut it back to $145k for 2010 as well. Otherwise, if it continues the salary freeze--and most Texas firms will (btw $160k base is/was mkt in Texas)--then you will have third year associates making the same as first years douches like this guy/gal. at our firm, we are convinced first year salaries will go down as a result of this phenomena

22--

16 here. I don't work at any of those firms. I'm just pretty confident they're the only ones in Texas that actually pay a NY salary instead of a "$160k package."

I said that they'd done all they could; I didn't say that resulted in no layoffs. Every firm lets people go every year, even in a good economy, and HB is one of the few firms that hasn't had large scale layoffs. I'd much rather have scaled back summer programs, non-existent holiday parties, and "only" 145K salaries for first years than firm-wide layoffs.

37--and not Jones Day?

$160 should be standard first year pay at all Texas firms. It's just compensation for the fact that you have to live in Texas.

25 - aragato

Haynes Boone makes great wine coolers, however.

I thought they paid you in Hush Puppies in Texas.

It SMELLS!

$145K in Texas? Going to have to cut back to 2500 sq. feet or lose the wife. The Lexis stays!

I CANNOT BELIEVE THEY DIDN'T GIVE ME A CORNER OFFICE IMMEDIATELY UPON MY ARRIVAL.

Why do Black people always ride the bus angry?

This would never happen at Binder & Binder.

I never knew being able to start on 11/30 was considered "deferred."

omg i don't know why people care so much about this if u can always just charge stuff to your parents credit card

xoxo trixy

Trixy, can i haz u nakid?

seriously- do you know how many people would kill for a salary like that?

seriously- do you know how many people would kill for a salary like that?

Someone should discuss this:

With all the salary freezes, next year we will have folks entering their 4th year of work (traditional mid-level associate) making the same amount as 2010 grads.

I am heading into my fourth year now (at 170) and I have a feeling that I would be incensed if my compensation was equal to that of the 3 classes below mine.

For these reasons, I would roll back first years by, at a minimum, 5 K. If you pass that 5K on to 3rd years, you at least have some semblance of a pay structure.

What kind of abode could one purchase in Texas with that kind of scratch?

Oh, cry me a river, first year angry tipster! $145,000 with no experience and you're crying! Unbelievable. There are plenty of second and third year associates who are worth $145,000 who can't get a job. Your attitude makes me sick! Go back to New York and leave Texas alone!

Please print the full email that was sent to the incoming associates.

so, are the texas to 190 rumors dead?

"With all the salary freezes, next year we will have folks entering their 4th year of work (traditional mid-level associate) making the same amount as 2010 grads."

Wouldn't that assume the first years got the same kind of bonuses as before the crash? Assuming people get the bonuses that have been tossed around the last couple weeks, isn't still less?

$145k > no offer. End of story.

Why does any entry-level lawyer feel entitled to $160k?

$145k is plenty of money. i live in a kick-a** apartment in Houston, eat at the nicest restaurants, and generally live very well due to the low cost of living...on a federal clerk's salary.

Get over yourself. Be happy to have a job. There was no guarantee that you'd make $160. If you are that unhappy with H & B, go elsewhere. Unless you are the reincarnation of Learned Hand, you are most certainly not worth even $145k.

This sort of whiny self-entitlement makes me sick.

Thousands of 09 grads who are better qualified than him (definitely a "him"), and who obtained offers at well-known national law firms have either lost their offers or been deferred.

And this Federalist Society nobody from UT's top half is complaining about making 145 at his no-name firm?

Amazing.

It's kind of ridiculous for Texas offices to be paying the same as New York in the first place.

Toss aside any snobbery or jokes, you, in general, work far more hours in an area that has a much higher cost of living. Congrats to Texas people who took the deal, but sooner or later somebody in management was bound to get a clue.

i am a texas attorney who unquestionably works just as many hours as my nyc counter-parts. you most certainly did not toss aside snobbery.

"i am a texas attorney who unquestionably works just as many hours as my nyc counter-parts. you most certainly did not toss aside snobbery."

Uh, yeah I did - "in general"

An anecdote is not the same as an average.

I'm tempted to crack a joke here and I spent over twenty years growing up in the state. So, I'll just chock this up to lawyers overall--On average, big law lawyers in New York work longer hours and you know this is true.

-63

What are BB and VE paying these days?

i--63's texas attorney--am typical of my firm and most other large firms in the city.

i do not believe this is true. but, please, substantiate your snobbery, ignorance, and arrogance however you see fit.

why did it take you "over twenty years" to grow up?

You a**clown - $145K in TX is $250K+ in NYC/LA/SF. Stop moaning, buy a big new house, a couple dogs, a couple guns, a boat and call it a day you complainer. I'm going to send Chuck norris after you if you don't shut up.

Chaynes and Koon

Those clueless first years complaining about 145k salaries in Texas should be fired before they start. BH, please track them down immediately!

67, Pot shots, and third grader insults in place of rebuttals. I'm impressed.

I'm really trying not to knock my home state here, but the chip on your shoulder and bitter refusal to yield in the face of a fact that's so widely accepted it shouldn't even be up for debate makes it difficult. I know other big law lawyers who work in Texas and New York. You, presumably, know other big law lawyers who work in Texas and New York. Please spare me.

I like not having this chip on my shoulder vs. having to put forth this bitter, miserable attitude in the face of reality. A decent amount of people have this and this is what I miss least about it. People work less hours in Denver and St. Louis than in New York. They also work less hours in Austin/Dallas/San Antonio than New York. This like arguing over whether the Sun rises in the East.

When we leave this message board, I'll move on with my life and you'll spend the next few years with a stick up your ass whenever the subject of Texas vs. another state comes up. Congrats.

-63

Wow. You have a job starting at $145K and you are complaining. FIrst year associates are not worth $145 K. Big law firms really need to rethink their model. Clients are no longer willing to pay the costs to train associates that is passed on to them through the high billable rates of first-year associates.

BB and VE are still at $160K

71,

Try Houston.

This is a very angry thread. I feel uncomfortable.

Who wants to see me naked?

Brett Ratner

Of course since Texas has no income tax $145K is still at least equal to $160K in New York, and probably much more when you factor in cost of living.

62. I'm just curious. How did you deduce the tipster's alma mater, gender, class rank, and group associations?

Ooh, let me try. You are a an entitled lesbian from somewhere in the northeast, and probably an Obama girl (unless of course you were offended by his victory over Hillary). You resent the hell out of your consistent failure and blame it on everyone but yourself, especially men and people with the audacity to disagree with you politically. Am I close?

72 -- speak for yourself and your own ttt firm. The very top firms and elite boutiques are only hired for bet-the-company matters, for which the client couldn't care less about how the firm allocates cost and charges for specific associates, as long as they get the desired result. And the top law firms have a reputation for achieving that result.

All this crap about "not paying for 1st years" may apply to those firms handling walmart's slip and fall cases, but it does not apply to high-profile white collar, multi-billion dollar civil lit, or game-changing m&a. I guarantee you that cravath's and w&c's and wachtell's clients are not calling up to bitch about paying for 1st years. And the students who go to those firms have a zillion other alternatives and are well worth the mondy they're paid.

So please don't compare the 25 y/o UT grad at H&B to the cravath or w&c associate and say that "no 1st years are worth 145k". The associates at the latter two firms could all go to goldman tomorrow and make double that.

Who are these guys? Do they have any presence outside of Texas?

80 - seriously?

First of all, instead of making a stupid post, you could go umm, I don't know, google it.

Anyway: Orange County, San Jose, NY, DC, Mexico City, Moscow, and 6 TX offices

Listen to this loser first year complaining about $145k when he/she doesn't have enough experience to practice their way out of a wet paper bag. Waahhh wahhh waaaahhh my heart is breaking for you douche bag.

Is that your opinion 79? Go back to preparing for the LSATS.

The tipster came out of the Dallas office.

62 - Why is this guy a Federalist Society member? You got something to say about people trying to defend the constitution?

80 - You're an idiot. What, are you actually going to wait around for the answer? In the time it took you to type out your question you could have Googled the firm and found your answer.

79 = W&C first year.

I know for a FACT that the tipster is going to the Houston office. Nice try, 84 (who is the actual tipster trying to cover HIS trail).

The tipster definitely is a UT grad, FedSoc member, male, and out of the Dallas office.

I heard the tipster is definitely out of the Mexico City office.

I wonder how far $145k goes in Mexico City, forget Texas.

Texas lawyers defend their weak little firms like the Alamo.

and they live in Texas.

i love how 71 knocks someone else for not backing up his/her argument but then provides NO proof for 71's own argument. until i see valid statistics, i won't believe it.

Hi 78!

Actually you missed everything except my gender:) Thanks for playing!

-62

145K in Texas is actually more than 160K in New York after taxes.

62 and 78 are actually the tipster...and (s)he is going to this firm's Corpus Christi office.

87 -- actually, i'm a v30 1st year in Dallas. And i don't think i'm overpaid at all. but i have friends at cravath, wachtell, s&c, gdc, cov, and w&c, and they tell me that there is NO talk whatsoever from clients about refusing to be billed for 1st years. at my firm, however, there's a lot of talk of this.

Oh you poor fucking baby - only $145,000 a year!?!?!?! How are you going to feed your family!?!??!?!?!?! I guess you'll have to settle for a 5 series instead of the 7... Man up you little bitch.

As if any Texas lawyer deserves this kind of cash. What the hell do you merge and acquire down there - dust? steer? Texas "biglaw" is redneck small time stuff.

Here's what sucks the most about this article: I have to associate with this whiny prick.

I hope you're outed and disposed of.

Whining about $145k? There isn't a word to describe this level of douchebaggery.

I'm a 3L and I just applied for a job that pays $35k in a major East Coast city. I made more working as a secretary before I took out $200k worth of loans to go to law school.

So, to the H&B incoming associate who wrote that email, get some real problems to b***h about.

to #100:

This is not the 1800's.

I am an incoming first year at Haynes and Boone. I have been watching the market and so was not surprised by the "cut." I appreciate that management makes sound business decisions that have prevented mass layoffs. I am grateful to even have a job and, I might add, at a salary that far exceeds what most people make.

104-

You and all the others here talking about "how lucky" first years are to be making 145k are totally delusional. You have to look at what associates make PER HOUR compared to other people. Why is that such a difficult concept to understand?? Who cares if you make $500k per year if you have to work 110 hour weeks to get it?? By any measure, 1st years make about $60 PER HOUR, which is less than plumbers and some mechanics.

I'm not being a snob, but it's not insane to be a little pissy after going to college, going to law school, and then making less than a mechanic.

Furthermore, don't forget that these associates are being BILLED OUT at $200/hr. I'm not a communist -- i'm not arguing that associates are being "exploited," but they're certainly not appropriating the marginal return to their labor, even including benefits and overhead.

This is nothing more than greedy-ass partners taking advantage of a temporary lull in the economy to stick it to associates. Which is fine -- that's the free market. BUT it's incredibly short sighted, b/c WHEN THE ECONOMY RECOVERS, EVERYONE WILL REMEMBER THE FIRMS THAT SCREWED ASSOCIATES by cutting their pay by 10-15% while increasing billing rates and ppp.

And all this talk about h&b not laying anyone off is absurd. Any good organization SHOULD be laying people off even in growth years, much less in periods when there's excess capacity -- cutting the weakest performers is part of any meritocracy (unless of course h&b is soooo awesome that everyone there is a non-expendable superstar).

H&B is actually a pretty classy organization--before the economy hit the fan, they actually would fly in people's significant others and all associates/summers to a firmwide party. And when the economy hit the fan, they didn't have that party and instead didn't have massive layoffs.

Plus, these kiddos get to start in November, which is happening precisely, like, nowhere.

Of course, they do live in Texas. Ouch.

Don't most Texas firms have at least half their class start in November?

Texas firms aren't actually firms. It's kind of like the JV of states.

#103 - I know, which is what makes Texas's hillbilly proclivities even less acceptable. Stars and bars flying, tobacco chewing, sister screwing rednecks have no business thinking of themselves as "biglaw" lawyers. Maybe you can take the mom and pop diner in Dallas public one day so you can pretend you know how to make a deal. Right on #108.

105 - There's a very simple solution for you then. Go be a mechanic.

Your argument is nothing new. People have been saying for years that associates aren't paid all that well when you calculate their wages on an hourly basis. Even when salaries were $160K, they were still saying that. If you had done any research before going to law school, you would know that - and presumably, because it offends you so greatly, you wouldn't have gone after obtaining that knowledge.

Also, you know those "greedy-ass partners" you're complaining so loudly about? I'm sure it's utterly impossible that those same partners would have gotten rid of good associates in sections where there was little work just so they could maintain PPP. I'm sure that all of those associates deserve the "weakest performer" title you have just given them because the partners were absolutely fair and unbiased in making those decisions, yet managed to turn into unfair, greedy jerks when deciding what salary you should start at.

Good luck. With your attitude and reasoning ability, you're going to need it.

You should be happy to have a job. I have had first years working for me before who were to incompetent to even put final documents into a closing binder. Yet, due to a "good" market, they got raises every 6 months.

110 -- you obviously missed my point. I'm not complaining that mechanics make more than lawyers. I'm simply saying that biglaw associates are not overpaid, like all the whiney partners (and ttt, jealous associates making 80k in Idaho) on this board seem to think.

.

108 & 109:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/states/TX.html

Welcome to the 20th century.

I definitely got a giggle from the fact that TX has more Fortune 500 companies than NY.

I love Texas. Wouldn't live anywhere else. It's sad that so many people are so bitter about their own lives that, to make themselves feel better, they have to try to convince everyone else that their lives are crap too.

but banking and finance is all that matters, idiot

companies that actually make things are TTT

i make 75k at a boutique firm in texas. i wish i made more money, but, oh well, for now i am happy to have a job at a firm that is well respected locally. i'm getting great experience, but i work all the time: i'm on track for 2250 hours this year. imagine what my per hour pay is...

i don't have sympathy for people grumbling over $145k in texas. even on my salary, i live extremely well. i have an amazing place, wear designer suits, and go out frequently. i recognize that, as a new lawyer, i am still learning, and my work is NOT worth a king's ransom. one day, i'll expect to be very well paid, but, for now, i am thrilled to be building the foundation of my career.

this person needs to be happy for what he or she has. drop the repugnant sense of entitlement. you are still being paid much more than you deserve, and, if you are in houston like i am, you are going to be living very well.

there was no guarantee of making $160 out of school. you want to make more money? DO SOMETHING ELSE.

112 - Go back and read my second paragraph. You'll see that I understood your point perfectly.

116-Would your designer suits make Sinata purr and/or does your apartment smell of rich mahogany?

113 -
a) Almost all the companies on that list are raw materials producers etc., hardly work for geniuses. The companies in NY are the ones that actually involve brains. Texas barely has more companies, and the quality of the NY work is much more sophisticated.

b) I know you guys are still in the 20th century, that's part of why you suck. The northern states are already in the 21st century, while you guys lag behind in your hillbilly backwater. I hope you're prepared for Y2K!

119,

So what you're saying is that you get paid the same (or, less when you factor in cost of living) in exchange for doing more sophisticated, difficult work? Even if true (and I'm not sure it is), I'd say we Texas lawyers have the better end of that stick. Enjoy your one bedroom flat in Manhattan. 5,000 square feet and a Lexus, bitches.

119 -
really? that's your best argument? That companies in NY are better because "all stupid old exxon and valero do is make stupid gas! we are totally smarter than those guys!" Brilliant!

so, genius...go make me some gas. or at least go tell some geophysicist from Texas to his face how much smarter than him you are and see what happens.

I could not agree more with number 116.

Many law grads have little to no real work experience - most took, at most, 3 years off between undergrad and law school. Somehow a 3-year law degree instantly qualifies you to make 160K when PhDs and even most MBAs don't make that much straight out of school? Even most starting MDs don't make that much! And yes, young doctors work just as many hours as lawyers do. What's so special about a law degree that it suddenly makes you deserving of a salary most people don't make until they, you know, acquire some actual experience and real-world skills?

119 has to be a strawman. no one would set themselves up for a self pwn like that

119 has to be one of the most idiotic comments in the history of ATL. First the line of arguments that tried to argue that Texas lawyers don't do sophisticated work got completely owned by the fact that Texas has more fortune 500 companies than both New York and California. Second, to come back and then argue that it doesn't matter because "manufacturing" doesn't involve "smart people" is pretty laughable considering that most of the companies you refer to aren't manufacturing at all. Oil companies do not manufacture anything. They explore for oil thousands of feet below the surface of the earth with some of the most sophisticated technology on the planet with some of the most sophisticated scientists and engineers at the helm. Do you realize how many PHd's work for exxon mobile? I wonder how many PHd's work for goldman? Yes drilling for oil thousands of feet below the surface of the ocean on top of a billion dollar oil rig is unsophisticated work...please.

who needs oil when you have banking RIGOR

You people from New York are absolutely correct. Texas lawyers are all mediocre country lawyers who aren't capable of handling sophisticated legal work and can be out negotiated and out litigated by the New York firms. The corporations in Texas don't really engage in sophisticated and important activities like creating new synthetic derivatives and trading in credit default swaps. They just make things and stick holes in the ground or seabed to suck out minerals. Haynes and Boone is just a no name Texas firm with lawyers who couldn't make it in the big city so you don't have to worry about them. You won't need your "A" game with them. That's the story I use in New York and I'm sticking to it.

You people from New York are absolutely correct. Texas lawyers are all mediocre country lawyers who aren't capable of handling sophisticated legal work and can be out negotiated and out litigated by the New York firms. The corporations in Texas don't really engage in sophisticated and important activities like creating new synthetic derivatives and trading in credit default swaps. They just make things and stick holes in the ground or seabed to suck out minerals. Haynes and Boone is just a no name Texas firm with lawyers who couldn't make it in the big city so you don't have to worry about them. You won't need your "A" game with them. That's the story I use in New York and I'm sticking to it.

Mike Boone (co-founder of Haynes and Boone) continues to out-negotiate many a NY lawyer, charming them with a Texas drawl so they don't notice they're about to get their butts kicked with a (very expensive) boot.

Learn to do some research before spewing drivel, people.

Mike boone is a functioning retard compared to any NY or Cal attorney (even first years).

Why should firms pay $160k? I mean, why?

Perhaps the top 10 firms still compete for talent. For every other firm, it's a buyer's market. What are law students going to do when firms cut salaries to $145k... or $125k (back to 2000 levels)? Quit? Go work at Denny's?

And forget the response of, "Firms will be in trouble in a few years when the economy recovers." No. Law firms went through a bubble this decade. It will be a long time before the V11+ firms are competing for talent again. Maybe a generation.

129:

Interesting. Do you personally know him? Do you personally know every attorney in CA and NY?

Are you saying that any lawyer who chooses to work for a firm in TX is, by definition, less talented/smart than any lawyer from any school who chooses to work in NY or CA?

It's a good thing that the top law schools have enough graduates to fill every single attorney position across the country, as the rest of us are, apparently, merely functioning retards and can hardly find a job.

Signed,
3500 sq ft, Mercedes, hot husband, and a life outside of work

Hey 96,

I can only assue you went to UT Law, because the rest of us know that Texas does not have a state income tax. Thus, instead of paying New York's state and city taxes, the Texas associate pays no state income tax on his or her $145K salary and gets to keep more of his or her money.

hey 127, i guess you're right about ny lawyers not using their "a" game. must be why texas lawyers consistently pwn new york lawyers in and out of court.

hey 133, 127 was being sarcastic.

131: shouldn't you be vacuuming those 3500 sq. ft. right now?

FACT: No texas lawyer could hack it in NYC or Cal.

I work with Haynes and Boone lawyers on a fairly regular basis, and I have found them to be very intelligent and talented, by and large.

It's clear that 119 doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. Successful oil and gas exploration requires an incredible amount of brains and money. You are foolish to think otherwise.

On a related note, why is it that NY big law associates are such douches (or at least the ones who post here)? Am I wrong, or are they basically secretaries that draw up whatever paperwork their banker-pimps ask for? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the partners up there are sharp as tacks and have a lot to offer, but the (junior) associates - what value do they add exactly? Thank god there's a lot of diligence to do and closings to prepare for. I guess it's easy to confuse working for Crassus with being Crassus.

But what do I know? I just work for the government and make a paltry $100K/yr (raise coming soon!). I'm not working this week at all. It's fantastic. I'm at the beach. My stress level is 0, job security absolute. And once this whole recession blows over and I have a couple years experience, I'm not going to have a problem getting a big law job if that’s what I want to do.

In conclusion, I think most of you sound like awful people. I'm glad I don't know you personally because I can hardly take reading your insufferable comments. I mark it up to stress. You guys work too much – how are you supposed to have a life? And GOD, the sword of Damocles swinging perilously over your heads all the time? What if they decide to fire you tomorrow? I hope it’s because you’re dead weight and not for some other reason that has nothing to do with your performance at all. What if some partner just doesn’t like you for one reason or another and decides to fuck you? What can you do? The powerlessness over your own destiny must be tough to deal with. Anyway, sleep tight bitches. I hope your LSAT score or law school's ranking make you indispensable.

136,

Sincere inquiry here. What sorts of government practices make one marketable to law firms as laterals?

tax, securities/financial regulation, environmental, antitrust, white-collar crime, labor and employment, patent, telecom . . . .