Double Deferrals suck. So glad my firm rescinded outright... I've already found something else. Best wishes to everyone affected.

(Un)Employed '09

Not ichiban.

This....is....not....good.

2 - how and what did you find? I know you wouldn't want to go into specifics, but I would definitely appreciate your insight - even if it is somewhat vague...

Dudes, the Dow is DOWN.

OH NOEEEEEES!!!!!11111

Why do Black people always beat their dogs?

In the past we paid you more because we had to. Today we pay you less because we can. Karma is indeed a bitch.

$2000/month is almost double the minimum wage in this country, you little punk. And you don't even have to work for it.

This should be a word of caution to all you deferred associates who "think" that you are starting in January. What the law firm giveth, the law firm can take away and there is nothing that you can do about it. Good luck Class of 09!

"offset any disruption this may cause."

Isn't this a little late to be pulling this shit?

sucks

"offset any disruption this may cause."

Isn't this a little late to be pulling this shit?

Seyfarth Sandwich

a lot of other firms have deferred 2010 grads to 2011. Where's the coverage ATL?

"we know for a fact that they were busy and could have afforded us"

Umm afforded? Top writing skills there.

Deferred is a synonym for "retracted." Any questions?

Never trust a firm with "fart" in their name.

Count your blessings. At least these young attorneys have a valid birth certificate, which is more than I can say about a certain chief executive of these United States.

"Next October is a long time away. "

Does Elie really have to be such an ass about this constant parade of bad news?

ATL Secure?

WHERE IS "MY JOB IS MURDER"?!?!

YOU CAN'T LEAVE US HANGING LIKE THIS LAT!!!!!!!!1!

Seyfarth or whatever they are called are a really shitty firm. I would assume it's just full of horrible Colombia and NYU grads who couldn't get jobs anywhere else, is this assumption faulty?

Yale secure

I bet you could make $2k a month collecting aluminum cans for recycling.

Only 8 associates involved, so the firm could have picked them up without much damage to the sacred profits per partner. That must be a sign that neither work nor attrition is expected to pickup.

The twice deferred better not complain too much. They're a small group and are likely to be forever tagged as the whiners who bitched to ATL the moment they were asked to take one for the team.

did u know Steven Segal passed the NJ bar exam this year. I am sure he has a job, I doubt he got deferred anywhere.

5-

I'm in a Midwestern secondary market (think Columbus, Indy, Milwaukee, etc.). My original offer was at a midsized firm that paid close to market. I landed at smallish but well-regarded general litigation firm that pays about 2/3 of market. Big pay cut, but still decent money and good experience.

I didn't start looking until I had my bar results, and I had four interviews in a month. No Biglaw or Bigfed, but I had a lot of luck with small firms and state government.

A lot of people have been saying this, and I found it to be the case: If you had the credentials to go to Biglaw or a NALP firm, you have a resume that will stand out. You still need to kill the interview, obviously, but employers that claim not to care about grades, LR, etc. seem to change their tune when they have a choice in the matter. Keep your old firm in the loop; unless they're malicious douchebags, they probably do want to help you (tougher if you're on perma-deferall). Subscribe to your local bar journal, join the right groups in Linkedin, and watch your CSO job board and state-gov website; I got interviews through all of those channels. And try to volunteer somewhere while you're looking so you can tell interviewers what you're doing.

-2

Defer twice, fire once.

Dear Associates-Never-to-Be:

YOU HAVE BEEN FIRED. YOU WILL NOT START IN OCTOBER OR EVER. YOU WILL NEVER MAKE A BIGLAW SALARY. YOU WILL MAKE MUCH, MUCH LESS. NOW, GO GET A JOB.

Dear Associates-Never-to-Be:

YOU HAVE BEEN FIRED. YOU WILL NOT START IN OCTOBER OR EVER. YOU WILL NEVER MAKE A BIGLAW SALARY. YOU WILL MAKE MUCH, MUCH LESS. NOW, GO GET A JOB.

Nuthin wers den dooshes on dis bored who tawk bout bad righting - dat yoo 17

MAYER BROWN MAYER BROWN MAYER BROWN MAYER BROWN

"[w]e know for a fact that they were busy and could have afforded us."

While it sucks to be in their position, forgive me if I don't take the words of a never-set-foot-in-the-building <1st year associate as the gospel about a firm's workload and financial health.

And the kid's incredulous that SS turned a profit last year? These aren't like corporations -- you can't just not turn a profit.

You should have looked for a job when you were initially deferred. View the additional $2000 per month as severance, and find a job anyway you can. Because with an attitude like that, you will be waiting on the bench for a VERY long time.

Deferred associates should start negotiating a buy out package with their firms. Firms don't want the negative publicity of terminating you after two deferrals and may be willing to pay a premium to make you go away permanently now.

Mean. The start date is only 2 months away. I am sure these people have moved to town, signed on apartments and travelled or spent money over these months in anticipation of this start date. Plus, if the firm knew they couldn't afford their new hires, they knew awhile ago. I mean, seriously, how many people could they have believed would fail the bar? Now the re-deferred are really pressed for time to find a new job. That said, I am waiting until Dec. 1 to feel like its too late to be re-deferred by my own firm but even now is a little harsh.

This is really a great opportunity to get some real lawyering experience before starting.

36 - By suing the firm under § 90?

The salary cut is not shocking. There are more than a handful of firms in my city who are cutting the class of 2010's salary 5-10%.

Elie, why aren't you actively trying to collect info on these firms that are cutting salaries? Make a new thread, Jesus.

the sense of entitlement from the tipster is frightening.

With only 8 re-deferred candidates and the obnoxious nature of the tipster's email, it shouldn't be hard for Seyfarth to figure out which one of those 8 is first to officially get the permanent deferral.

sense of entitlement? Jesus. He was supposed to start work in less than 2 months and he was just essentially fired. Wouldn't you be rather pissed, too?

I think what is most unnerving about this incident is that the firm decided to wait until NOW to make this decision. What changed from 3 weeks ago to now? Or even 2 months ago? No markets crashed. No huge businesses collapsed. The last minute nature of this makes me feel that the pissed off formerly incoming associate has every right to be pissed off.

Those deferred a second time should pin down the details of the $2,000/month stipend. There could be strings. For example, Seyfarth might deduct from that $2,000 any money you earn at a different job, so $2,000 could operate as a ceiling unless you find a higher paying job. Better to know these things before you plan your next step.

2,000 a month for doing nothing is not that bad, go get another job while you waiting and collect both.

But isn't this the firm that laid the associate off nine months after she started and then tried to screw her chances of getting another job by arguing that any firm would have to recuse themselves?

News flash; Life is harsh. Things don't always go the way you planned. Deal with it, instead of whining. And FFS, if you do not care for the content on this blog, stop reading it or start your own.

This firm must have retained Altman Weil.

Turned a profit last year? I would think so. Does this nitwit really think that merely turn a profit (any amount) is enough to satisfy the equity holders of that enterprise? If so, said nitwit is too stupid to be employed.

Wow, SS. Way to wish a happy Thanksgiving. This move is definitely the new low.

Thanks for the deferrals and pay cuts, Obama.

I agree with 41. If this happened to me I would be livid (not that there's much I could do about it).

It is very late in the game for this and leases have been signed in the majority of cases. I think the comments here about "entitlement" are a little overdone. For over 20 years the traditional path was to go to a T14 school, finish median or above, and collect your BIGLAW paycheck. It was reasonable for those entering law school in 2006, before the shit hit the fan, to assume that this would continue. I can see how some of those kids would feel a bit entitled for that paycheck.

However I cannot defend those who started school this past fall or even fall 2008, since the writing was on the wall at that point.

Res Ipsa is a prestigeless TTT hack.

49 - a majority of people do not sign a lease months in advance.

Wow, this is tragic. I'm sure the tens of thousands of working people screwed over by Seyfarth's huge labor practice every year will share your grief.

I second 52.

49, and people who bought houses in 2006 thought it was reasonable that housing prices would go up every year. Cry me a river about your lack of entitlement.

Iron Eagle, prepare to die!

Seyfarth Shaw

Seyfarth can forget about ever recruiting at Hofstra after this. What a joke.

Since this only impacts a limited number of associates, I bet they offered each one a different amount of money per month, and now the one who was offered $2000 is going to find himself going from the deferred line to the rescinded line.

Imagine a huge dick the size of a telephone pole being stuck up your ass, splinters and all. Well you motherfuckers, you deserve it. What goes around comes around. For you self-entitled bitchinbastards, eat shit and go away.

LABOR DISPUTE

SHAME ON SEYFARTH/SHAW

LABOR DISPUTE

$2,000 a month was my salary for driving a conversion van for a paramilitary group in the 1980s. I used to live large on that, you'll be fine!

Mohawk Secure

Seyfarth never paid $160. It was still on the $145 scale.

Defer me once, shame on you. Defer me twice, shame on me. ... On second thought, I'd probably be staying put myself after the first deferral. As for after the second deferral, that's a much tougher call.

You might be livid, but would you have the lack of judgment to tell ATL as this punk did.

49: you're an idiot.

-- Nassim Nicholas Taleb

The ship be sinking...

Not 100 percent on this but I think this means these prospective associates have been fired. The 2K/month is the severance. Anybody agree?

re angry tipster's note: Seyfarth isn't Biglaw? It's Vault. Admittedly, low Vault, but that doesn't make it not Biglaw.

Wasn't Seyfarth ditching its summer program anyway? So this is its incoming class in October if ever.

TTTfarth

Only 2k /month to not work? Stop whining asshole.

58 FTW

Throw yourselves on their swords. They'll never take us alive! To the conference room!

Is Seyfarth even a Vault100?

I just don't care about your problems.

"This is amusing, in light of the fact that the firm turned a profit last year … "

You've just shown your lack of understanding of big law economics. None of these firms are in danger of not showing a profit.

I think most of these deferral firms are hoping that a fair number of deferrals take the hint and find another job. The size of many of these incoming classes was decided upon when the firms thought better of the legal market. Some firms may have appropriately and timely scaled down their class size, but I'm guessing that most didn't. So these firms keep stringing along these prospects with the thought that they could eventually take some of them on, but not all. Anything they can do to have some prospects "voluntarily" take themselves out of consideration is on the table (redeferrals, lowering stipends, etc.) It's the same thing firms used to do to their associates in better times, encourage them to leave on their accord with subtle an not-so-subtle hints.

I think Elie read those comments calling him an inconsiderate jerk, happy at people's misfortune and decided to change his ways. Much better this time, not mocking.

Seyfarth is kind of a wannabe firm. They are not nearly as good at busting up unions or screwing the working man as Paul Hastings or Proskauer.

It does seem like Elie is enjoying this whole "hey deferred associates, your careers and lives are ruined" thing way too much, based on his recent posts. For what it's worth, my start date just got moved up from March to January, so I'll be starting earlier than I expected. The system is in trouble, yes. But it's a different situation firm-to-firm.

Also, can ATL please put together a chart/list detailing deferral extensions, rescissions, moving start dates up, etc., similar to the one for deferrals?

Elie,
I demand that you do a thread: Will those re-deferred that leave their firm have to payback their stipends? I have a personal interest in the matter and what informed input or haphazard speculation.

Elie,
I demand that you do a thread: Will those re-deferred that leave their firm have to payback their stipends? I have a personal interest in the matter and want informed input or haphazard speculation.

78 - i agree, it's hard to keep everything straight. i'd like to see a list too

This is just another example how lawyers and law firms are just horrible managers and even worse business men and women.

The only thing being a lawyer at a firm had going for it over being a lawyer (or manager) at a bank was stability. No layoffs, ever. No reneging on promises. Now, for the sake of higher PPP, these values are being tossed out the window.

Partners should realize that their business model is nothing more than using associates as a multiplier. When the economy gets better, it will cost them much more to keep associates in place, because law firms have proven to be no different than any other business, lay off during a recession.

I think this move by Seyfarth signifies that they have gotten out of the business of hiring students out of law school. Between preemptively cancelling next year's summer program, deferring all of their Chicago incoming associates with a poverty-level stipend, and reducing 1st year salaries from below-market 145K to Littler-esque 130K, they've clearly sent the message that law school recruiting is not a priority. There have been forces at the firm who've been pushing this model for years, and now they've apparently won.

All of these moves appear to be more of a shift in business model than a cry that "this ship be sinking."

Just another story of a perfectly nice middle-of-the- road firm that decided it wanted to be a national power, but never had the clients to justify the expense structure.

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78 & 81 I agree, ATL should do this, it would be a great service. A deferral map.

As for Seyfarth Shaw, this was a truly low-class move. What changed in the last month? Nothing.

As a deferred associate, I know I am not entitled to a job, I just want to be treated humanely. This is terrible. Any firm that re-defers within 2 months of the start date is completely low class.

That's almost criminal, or at least should be. I was reading about wrongful termination on this blog: http://lawblog.legalmatch.com/2009/10/21/legalmatch-site-data-shows-high-interest-in-wrongful-terminations/ . This technically isn't, but IMHO deferrals and salary cuts seem to be almost like forcing a person to quit.

Here's a good lesson for everyone: GET A CLUE!

Law firms--whether Seyfarth/Big Law or five lawyer shops--do what they do in order to make higher profits. If first year associates were profitable, then law firms would not defer them. You might want to check the lateral hiring rosters and you'll see that Seyfarth is hiring--and still looking for--more midlevel associates. That's because these lawyers pay for themselves. Why would any business hire people that operate at a loss?

As for the timing of the announcement, maybe the firm tried to wait to see if things improved. A firm like Seyfarth reps Fortune 500 companies --look at their client list--and most of these companies have now issued litigation guidelines for 2010 that discourage or prohibit first years to staff their work. This new development came from client pressure, not law firm greed.

As for the monthly stipend, what other type of business except a law firm would even pay anything? Wall Street? The Medical Profession? Big Accounting?

The stipend is probably a subtle hint--obviously too subtle for some of you immature winers-- that you need to go to the marketplace and learn a skill that law firms want and clients will pay for and $20K should allow you to do that. If not, then send the money to some teachers who are also highly educated but would never dream of a six-figure starting salary.

A first year associate makes about the same pay as a federal judge and a senior associate makes about the same as a justice on the Supreme Court. Do you really think a first year associate deserves the same pay?

One final comment. There are some people who bitch and complain and some people who learn how to make the best of things. The former usually lose cases, don't get clients, are at the top of any layoff list, and get passed over for partner. The latter become good lawyers, develop a book of business, become equity partners and then they write their own ticket--at Seyfarth or anywhere else.

So, GET A CLUE! Make yourself valuable during the time off. If you do that, you'll always have a job. Indeed, multiple options for multiple jobs.

Finally a voice of reason!

For all of you that biych about Seyfarth or other Big Law establishments, please feel free to see if you can get a better job. If you're worth something, someone will hire you. If you're worth a lot, someone will pay you $130K, $145K, $165K, whatever. If no one will pay you this much, then maybe Seyfarth is not the problem. You are.

Or, if you think you know how to be a lawyer, open your own firm. But you probably don't have the brains or the balls, do you?

Hey, number 87:

Did you even go to law school? Your knowledge of criminal law and employment law is very telling as to why you don't have a job. Namely, you're an idiot.

I pitty the firm that gets stuck with you. I hope they ask you to sign an arbitration agreement because you'll sue as soon as you're asked to to some hard work or you (inevitably) get a poor performance evaluation.

Grown-ups are speaking here. You should be quiet. Maybe you'll even learn something.

I heard that associates at Seyfarth bill an average of 2,000 this year. But the first years bill much less. Maybe that's why mid levels are always in demand and first years are never in demand.

This is what it's like at my firm (an AM LAW 100 firm). Isn't it the same everywhere?

I hope you all see this as a warning sign. As ATL shows, what one firm does, others will follow. Anyone who is deferred should be prepared for more bad news soon. Just look at this site, one firm follows another and another and another. . . .

Seyfarth has had recent problems, but they were a real up-and-coming firm before the economic disaster... that may be the reason why they have been hit so hard.

They have an amazing labor and employment practice group, and perceptive attorneys who can see well into both sides of the problem.

I think there are far more "greedy" firms. This place has a fairly modest environment, along with excellent attorneys, and the billing rates are lower than those at comparable firms.

I am confident that this firm and others like it will continue to expand in the future -- but it may be 3 years or so in the future when they start rolling again.

Seyfarth has had recent problems, but they were a real up-and-coming firm before the economic disaster... that may be the reason why they have been hit so hard.

They have an amazing labor and employment practice group, and perceptive attorneys who can see well into both sides of the problem.

I think there are far more "greedy" firms. This place has a fairly modest environment, along with excellent attorneys, and the billing rates are lower than those at comparable firms.

I am confident that this firm and others like it will continue to expand in the future -- but it may be 3 years or so in the future when they start rolling again.