Southern New England School of Law Prepares to Fight
We have reported on the proposed merger of Southern New England School of Law with the University of Massachusetts, which would bring the first public law school to the state. At the time, I wrote:
I mean no offense by this, but isn’t the Southern New England School of Law not a very good law school? There’s a reason the school isn’t accredited, right? I just don’t see how raising the profile of bad law schools is the right way to go.
Apparently, Southern New England School of Law took offense. The Boston Globe reports:
“My students and faculty have been maligned,” the school’s dean, Robert Ward, said during a recent tour of campus, a 75,000-square-foot three-story building next to an outlet mall in North Dartmouth.Ward acknowledged his school has a way to go to meet national accreditation standards, but said it is far from the crumbling, financially destitute failure critics portray it to be.
He noted a retired appeals court judge — a Harvard Law graduate, no less — among his 13-member faculty.
Putting aside the question of whether or not Southern New England is a good school, can we get back to the question of whether Massachusetts needs a public law school?
I think that this debate should come down to a question of cost. Southern New England argues that it will be offering a low-cost alternative for legal education:
Tuition and fees, currently $22,175, would be raised slightly to $23,500, still nearly half the cost of Suffolk and New England School of Law. State education officials say the public connection would allow the law school to build upon the strengths of UMass-Dartmouth - public policy, environment, and marine studies.
None other than Harvard Law School professor Charles Ogletree is in favor of the school:
“I certainly applaud the idea of Massachusetts having a major public law school,” said Charles Ogletree, a Harvard Law School professor who directs the school’s Institute for Race and Justice.“The interest here is to find more people who are eager to engage in public service. The needs have never been greater, given the number of poor clients who lack access to legal services,” he said.
It is obvious that there is a need for more lawyers willing to serve poor clients. But, once again, I fail to see how $23,500 in tuition accomplishes this goal. Who the hell takes on up to $70K in debt to work a low-income, public interest job?
There are a lot of schools that cost a lot of money that produce a smattering of public interest lawyers. But the vast majority of people spending $70K are going to want to go into profitable, private practice.
This argument that Southern New England Law School at U. Mass. is going to produce an army of public interest lawyers seems intellectually dishonest. I don’t know how low tuition needs to go to allow people to go through three years of legal education and take a low-paying job at legal aid, but I know it’s got to be lower than $23,500.
But John O’Brien, dean of New England School of Law, questioned the feasibility of UMass’s plan to generate enough revenue to prepare the school for national accreditation. Other new law schools have had to significantly discount tuition in their initial years of operation to entice talented students to enroll, he said.“You can’t expect good students to come who could otherwise go to an accredited school,” O’Brien said.
This brings us back to the question of the quality of education that will be available at Southern New England should it merge with U. Mass. Essentially, the most compelling argument that the school would produce a bunch of public servants is that its graduates won’t be able to get jobs anywhere else. “Don’t worry, our graduates won’t be able to get spots in Biglaw or even mid-law, so we’ll be training the public defenders of the future. :-)”
And that’s a fine argument — albeit horribly cynical. And I’m sure there are students who will be going to Southern New England who don’t want to do anything other than work on asylum cases or some other field of law where there is a critical lack of attorneys. Some, but not all. Why? Because people don’t usually fork over $70K for psychic goods. “Working-class” people don’t usually commit to a $70,000 burden for the opportunity to make less than a plumber.
We have more than enough schools that produce public interest lawyers by default. What we need is a school that is going to really focus on public work and make it a possible and economically viable career option for most of its graduates. Southern New England has still failed to make a cogent argument for how their school is going to accomplish that goal.
Law school takes on its detractors [Boston Globe]
Earlier: How Much Is a Law School Worth?




Comments
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furst
furst
FOIST!
Oddly enough, I have heard of this school. I believe Sally Struthers is the official spokesperon of this institution.
Elie:
The Nutty Blogger
PE is off his game today.
Lat: you WILL get sued if you keep letting Elie post recklessly in this manner.
This is not legal advice.
Kash,
Would you allow me the supreme honor of making sexy sexy with you this evening? thank you please yes?
ShaFeef
Massacusetts has more broken toilets than old Boston Garden -am I right?
/Try the veal.
"Because people don’t usually fork over $70K for physic goods."
Really?
Toodles.
Elie, you snob. A standalone unaccredited law school as part of a state system is hardly unprecedented. U.C. Hastings is one, and they manage to charge $50,000/year in tuition for out of state students. What matters is if it's accredited by the state bar and its graduates are eligible to practice law in the forum state.
I guess Ogletree is in favor of newly minted graduates of Southern New England law school working for minimum wage as attorneys. Even busboys, grifters, proles, and ex-cons deserve representation while HLS attorneys can represent big corporations.
MOAR LAW SCHULZ!
Fire Elie. This site is trash.
This is a statement? Here is another statement? And a phrase also?
Enough with the Hastings joke already. Explain this: http://www.omm.com/tessgee/
Why is my groin engulfed in flames right now like a god damned baked alaska?
well said elie. you're sexy when you're all fired up and ready 2 go!
Effing Lat man...stop posting under 15 different names
Another Hastings grad practicing "illegally."
http://www.pillsburylaw.com/index.cfm?pageid=15&itemid=21536
If it becomes accredited, why shouldn't MA have a public law school? There are plenty of private ones available there. It's odd to bitch on one hand about the cost of tuition at law schools and then question the decision to potentially provide a cheaper alternative.
This is a joke, there is another school like this in MA, Mass School of Law at Andover. I went to an out of state first tier school and practice in MA and we already have too many lawyers here and count it have: Harvard, BC, BU, New England Law, Suffolk and the unaccredited Southern New England and Mass school of law. 7 for this tiny state!!! Oh and also note that as a MA resident you can actually go to UCONN law for in state tuition.
Not to mention that Mass School of Law and Southern New England are full of stupid rich kids whose parents were great lawyers and are just going here because they take anyone with money who can blow on a mirror. Then they will take over the law practice and run it into the ground.
PE,
If you want to make the world a better place, just look at yourself and make a change.
A free market will handle whether there should or should not be another law school in MA. If there is enough demand for it, why shouldn't it be there? If the legal industry can't handle more lawyers it will correct itself when these new law schools, unaccredited law schools or just all around terrible law schools cannot provide jobs to graduates.
I think if this school were to become accredited and provide a legal education for a fraction of the cost of other MA schools, there is a market for it. Otherwise, it'll probably fail miserably.
I'm so Fing tired of this fat bastard ranting about law schools. I don't care guy.
Southern New England School of Law is a smart, funny, kind institution, deeply devoted to its friends, to its community, and to exploring, understanding, and ultimately improving the world around it.
Brian Schroeder's Mom
11,
Hastings is a standalone law school. But it is accredited by the ABA.
http://www.calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/calbar_generic.jsp?cid=10115&id=5128#aba
Mystal is the WALRUS!
Obvious Hastings troll is obvious ...ly unemployed.
11,
It has come to my attention you were being sarcastic. Sorry. I'm familiar with the "are they even accredited" thing. I guess it just threw me off to see Hastings bashed in a post about SNESL. Carry on.
- Non-Hastings grad
11,
It has come to my attention you were being sarcastic. Sorry. I'm familiar with the "are they even accredited" thing. I guess it just threw me off to see Hastings bashed in a post about SNESL. Carry on.
- Non-Hastings grad 27
I have it on good authority that this school will not accept Muslims.
what gets lost in all of this is that there are few public interest jobs available. Has no one noticed that legal aid outfits aren't exactly flush with cash right now? The jobs that are available are presumably going to students from top schools with good LRAP programs, no?
Yes, there's unmet legal need, but there is no one- not the government, not private funders, certainly not the clients- who can really pay people to meet it right now.
Carrie Prejean in "The Hand of God"
Carrie Prejean in "The Hand of God"
LAW SCHOOL FOR EVERYBODY!!
We don't need any more schools to produce public interest lawyers. There are a lot of unemployed lawyers. If a state wants public interest lawyers, spend some money to give them a grant to help them pay down their debts if they go into public interest law. It is a lot cheaper than subsidizing a new law school.
a 43% bar passage rate? are you FUCKING KIDDING ME?
-they should not be accepting students with such a shocking lack of ability
-prospects should not commit tens of thousands of dollars to a school with such shockingly lacking standards
There is nothing wrong with hastings
--Hastings secure, 24
New here. Please help decode:
TTT=third tier toilet?
FTT=first tier toilet? (an oxymoron?)
e.g. T14=?? 14th rated law school in US News? Or 14th tier of law schools (which is abysmal)?
Peer firm=?
Vault=?
I predict that this institution will be the first to graduate an actual walrus. Sadly, the walrus will have a better chance of passing the bar than its bipedal classmates.
--WALRUS SECURE
Northeaster law school already provides a public interest focus here in MA. For that matter, Suffolk's public interest program is also pretty strong. Add Harvard, BU, and BC to the mix for the more private-practice focused students, and NESL-Boston for the students with low grades/ scores, and I'm not sure the current law schools have missed some large demographic that this new law school hopes to capture. Perhaps its lower tuition will be attractive to some public interest students who would otherwise go to Northeastern or Suffolk, but I'm not sure there is enough demand here. That the school is in the western part of the state might be its saving grace, but the Springfield DA ans CPCS offices are only so big.
I guess the 57% of their grads who can't pass the bar can't even practice public interest law.
Western/Central MA already has a law school. I can't remember the name of it, but it exists.
Did I miss the info about the school's bar passage rate? MA is one of the easiest bars in the country. The statewise passage rate is mid to upper 80s. NESL, Suffolk, and Northeaster all have passage rates over 80% How could this school be in the 40s? That must be a typo.
Carrie Prejean in "U cant touch this"
Elie,
Usually I find your articles on law schools and employment to be elitist and cynical, but this is right on point. There is no need to take on so much debt to go into public interest.
It is true that many public interest attorneys have their loans forgiven, but that usually happens after 10+ years at one job. That makes moving for a spouse, more desirable job, family reasons , etc. virtually impossible.
Finally, while public defenders and legal aid jobs 5 years ago were considered noble sacrifices, open to anyone who wishes to do it, now they are actually very dificult to get.
There are hiring freezes at least at most of the Public Defenders and District Attorneys offices around where I am, and its my understanding that its like that around the country. The same is true with legal aid jobs.
Those who want legal aid/PD/DA jobs who graduated in '09 are now volunteering, with hope that the hiring freeze ends. Many of them are doing it in vain. Its true that there are not enough public interest/public sector lawyers given the DEMAND, but there are still more lawyers than there are POSITIONS.
Unless there is a sudden influx of cash towards public law jobs, the last thing we need is another law school.
Doesn't this law school already exist? Isn't this just a private school being absorbed into the public system?
Why are you howling at the moon?
Do you think you need to take a morally outraged tone to have a worthwhile opinion? Get a life man, not everything is the end of the world.
Let's not forget Western New England School of Law
http://www.law.wnec.edu/
Guys in my high school used to start law schools with 40% bar passage rates all the time. It was no big deal.
In response to 24. It is hardly a free market law school if the State of Mass. subsidizes it. Let it be private and see if it can make it. Second, I would appreciate it if Prof. Ogletree or someone else would explain how public interest attorneys are supposed to make a living if the poor who allegedly need their services are unable to or will not pay for them. Why produce a type of worker for whom there is no demand. Kind of like pumping out more auto factory workers in Detroit--what's the point.
Thanks.
Elie
Why are you so anti social? Lat tweeted that he and Kash are going for a run tommorow. Why are you too good to play well with others outside of the office? Or did they just not invite you?
42: FYI, this place is not out Western MA, by Springfield, but is actually in Southeastern MA, by beautiful New Bedford. That geographic allure alone should attract more than enough out-of-staters to generate enough revenue to secure accreditation within five years!
Yeah, New Bedford is a really nice town. I am serious. Seriously.
40,
TTT and FTT are right.
T14 = top 14 law schools. All others are TTT.
Now that we have a broad bi-partisan consensus as to the need for moar public interest lawyers, the great test of our time is to figure out how to produce them.
This is the great challenge of our time. Let me be clear, as I've said time and time again, we are the ones we've been waitinf for. We are the change we seek. Can we do it? Yes we can!
How? Just like we do everything else: progressive tax rates, bailouts of student loans, government takeover of law schools, and TTT law school subsidies.
EQUALITY OF OUTCOMES SECURE
We have too many law schools in the country, and in MA in particular (6 accredited; 8 total). If there is not enough demand for SNESL to keep it afloat, let it go out of business.
I should probably know the answer to this question, but is Southern New England School of Law accredited by the American Bar Association?
Who would bother going to one of those dumps in Boston??
- Western New England Law Secure
What? You don't support the public option for universal education?
OK everybody - there are NINE law schools in Massachusetts, not seven or eight:
1) Harvard
2)BC
3)BU
4)Northeastern
5)Suffolk
6)New England
7) Western New England (Springfield)
8) Southern New England (unacc; Dartmouth)
9) Massachusetts School of Law (unacc; Andover)
42, Northeastern is not a public interest oriented law school. It costs >$65k/year and only 15% of grads head into public interest. Instead, it is the second-most expensive law school in the state, behind Harvard. Given the size of average grants, it is likely more expensive than Harvard for the average student.
53/54 - New Bedford was once the wealthiest city in the world, during the height of the whaling period (roughly 1835 - 1857). FACT. Wealthier than Boston, NYC, SF, Hong Kong, or London. If anything, it serves as a warning to what Dubai might turn into by they year 2200. And Southern New England Law School is actually in Dartmouth, MA, where it is quite easy to drop $5 - 10 million on a waterfront estate or gentleman's farm. It actually is really, really nice. See, for example:
$12.9m, 100 acre waterfront estate - http://www.realestatebook.com/homes/listing/101-3000023336/refer=yahoo
$5.9m, 25-acre waterfront home - http://realestate.yahoo.com/Massachusetts/Dartmouth/452-potomska-rd:22dc213584918a6620bf151da3eb9;_ylt=AjAFWqkpQcN4zGMVK1C7kUVn47Qs
$3.5m home near water - http://realestate.yahoo.com/Massachusetts/Dartmouth/101-mishaum-point-rd:6e8b4e86192589f3976da392f165d579;_ylt=AjayPS9BKeOFnRz4wF1LMQBn47Qs
You might also want to google the Round Hill Estate in Dartmouth. THAT'S a house!
Please stop comparing Southern New England to UC-Hastings. While it's true that neither of the stand-alone schools is accredited by the ABA, at least Hastings is accredited by a state bar association.
Hastings 3L (CBA accredited, baby!)
Please stop comparing Southern New England to UC-Hastings. While it's true that neither of the stand-alone schools is accredited by the ABA, at least Hastings is accredited by a state bar association.
Hastings 3L (CBA accredited, baby!)
There are already too many law schools in MA, plus because of reciprocal tuition agreements, MA residents can go to UConn Law for in-state tuition.
In any event, within 10 miles of Boston there are 5650 Law Students!
1. Harvard Law [1800 students]
2. BU Law [850 students]
3. BC Law [750 students]
4. Suffolk Law [1650 students]
5. Northeastern Law [600 students]
Not to mention Mass. School of Law @ Andover [650 students] 30 miles away, SNESoL in North Dartmouth (1 hour from Boston) or Western New England College of Law in Springfield (1.5 hours from Boston).
61, you are way off base. It should be:
1) Harvard
2)BU
3)Northeastern
4)Suffolk
5)New England
6) Western New England (Springfield)
7) Southern New England (unacc; Dartmouth)
8) BC
9) Massachusetts School of Law (unacc; Andover)
65, actually, I should place Northeastern at #9, since I graduated in 2007 and am still fucking unemployed.
Another MysTTTal attempt at being funny. He is only mad because he could not find a job teaching at any institution.
MysTTTal is very TTT.
So is PE.
Is it possible that PE= faux MysTTTal
Any idea of the number of 2006, 2007 and 2008 law graduates who are not employed as lawyers?
Elie-
I have no strong opinion on whether UMASS should take over SNESL, but I do have a strong opinion that you should have taken some more time to think this post through. You followed up a very strong post on Altman Weil yesterday with this crap.
First, it is wrong to say that UMASS would "merge" with SNESL. UMASS does not have a law school, so it would simply acquire SNESL.
Second, you resorted to a weak strawman argument that you put in quotes, said SNESL was making, and then said was "horribly cynical". Horribly cynical is making shit up and then deeming it "horribly cynical" and thinking people will just believe you.
Third, you include a self-serving argument from NESL guy, who asks why anyone would pay so much to go to an unaccredited law school, without offering any analysis: "so much" is half as much, and a SNESL coupled with UMASS state resources and infrastructure may not be unaccredited for long. It would not have (unlike NESL) to depend entirely on student fees.Of all the schools listed by previous commentators, NESL (followed closely by Suffolk and WNEC) has every reason to be scared for its very existence by the idea of a public law school in Mass that costs half as much. These are weak, expensive schools that should fear competition.
Frankly, I don't really understand this argument that there are too many law schools in Mass so a new one shouldn't be created. First, because this is not a new law school -- it is a state takeover of an existing school. Second because a strong state school would likely force some of those other weak schools out of existence.
Finally, you make a big deal out of the 23,500 price tag, without mentioning that 23,500 is half as much as basically all of the other Boston-area schools.
Also, to call a public interest law job "low income" is insulting to hard working men and women who really do work in low income jobs. Like I said: you really should have thought this post through.
I grew up in Massachusetts and I went to a top 10 school, but it still peeves me that Mass does not have a public law school. Even North Dakota has a state law school. I think they should build one from the ground up, not pay for one with a not so great reputation. But dammit, Massachusetts, school central, should be absolutely embarrassed that they don't have a state law school. Every instinct in my being is for public service, but there was no way what with the debt I had from the "name" school. I think most schools teach the same stuff, some just get better students. Build your own, make it good, make it thoughtful and creative - I would have gone if it was there. If you build it . . .
22 - You do realize that the "tiny state" of Massachusetts is the 15th largest state in the union as measured by population, yes?
ok -- this is bull shit. i can't believe that snesl is unaccredited. i knew that hastings was a shit-school, but snesl???
UC-Hastings and Southern New England are to ABA accredidation as Elie is to Walrus.
72-73:
I've never heard of this "UC-Hastings" school, but it has a website and is ranked by U.S. News and World Report, so I believe it exists. That said, Southern New England School of Law is ranked higher by U.S. News than this UC-Hastings school. So I think SNESL is considered better.
SNESL 1L
Okay, there seems to be confusion here. Let me help:
UC Hastings is part of the UC (California) system but not connected to any undergraduate institution. It is accredited by the State Bar of California, but not by the ABA. It USED to be accredited, but it was revoked due to poor academic quality and other scandals. As a consequence, its recent graduates are eligible to sit for the bar in California. They can also lateral into other jurisdictions. Those that graduated prior to the ABA revocation are basically grandfathered in, although their school reputation is still toxic.
Southern New England School of Law is likely unaccredited by the ABA, but it is accredited in Massachusetts (by a regional agency, I believe, but it doesn't make much difference) and its graduates are eligible to sit for the Massachusetts bar exam.
Both schools have shockingly low bar pass rates, but that likely has more to do with the caliber of the students they can attract than school quality. Kind of a chicken and egg problem. However, Hastings demonstrates that there's no problem with just bringing the school into the public system and leaving it as non-ABA-accredited.
Why not let the economy decide who should and shouldn't become a lawyer? Southern New England doesn't have a very good reputation so it is unlikely that even its best students will end up competing for jobs at mega-firms which is all the readers in here care about anyway. So let the market push them into other parts of the law.
The law used to be a profession one could join through years of home-study and apprenticeship. Why do we feel the need to be snobs about it and allow a "private organization" (the ABA) to dictate how many lawyers should be allowed to practice?
Why do you trolls keep posting that Hastings is ABA accredited? Let it go.
Hastings lost its acceditation in the mid 1990s amidst a host of issues including unstable adminstration, low bar passage, and the USNWR spat. The current dean at Hastings has publicly stated that Hastings will be ABA accredited (albeit provisionally) in 2012.
STOP trolling that Hastings is ABA accredited.
I believe that no more than six people count for 85% of the comments on this site, and that most of them answer their own posts. So fucking sad.
78, I concur. I believe there is only one troll claiming Hastings is accredited, and they just post a lot and try to derail unrelated threads. Elie et. al., can you do an IP check? It wouldn't surprise me if it resolves to uchastings.edu
22 - I am a MA resident who considered transfering to UCONN, but did not b/c of the cost. In your post, you said "that as a MA resident you can actually go to UCONN law for in state tuition."
A quick check of UCONN School of Law's explanation of tuition and fees, shows that your statement is completely false...
http://www.law.uconn.edu/bursars-office/explanation-tuition-fees
"each entering student is classified as a Connecticut or an out-of-state resident"
"Students classified as Connecticut residents pay tuition of $9,804 per semester, if registering for 12 or more credits per semester"
"Students classified as out-of-state residents pay tuition of $20,664 per semester, if registering for 12 or more credits per semester"
"Newly-entering students who are residents of the New England Compact state of Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, or Rhode Island pay tuition of $17,160 per semester, if registering for 12 or more credits per semester"
So to sum up:
$19,608 / year if Connecticut resident
$41,328 / year if gerneral "out-of-state" resident
$34,320 / year if "New England" resident
Connecticut residents pay LESS THAN HALF of most out-of-staters. Mass residents get a measely $7,008 / year discount of off "out-of-state" tuition.
This hardly qualifies as being abke to attend "UCONN law for in state tuition" as you alleged.
80, thanks for the legwork, I was wondering about that. But having a public T4 in Massachusetts won't really help the situation.
Oops, excuse my typos
"gerneral" = general
"measely" = measly
"abke" = able
"of off" = off of
-80
81, I agree that turning SNESL into a public law school isn't a great solution. I just wanted to emphasize that MA residents are stuck with high tuitions despite the UCONN discount.
-80
Kids from BU and BC can't get jobs and we're adding another law school?
Also wrt the ~40% bar passage rate, I don't know how the administrators of SNESL can sleep at night. You're saddling these kids with tens of thousands in debt and about half of them will never be able to practice law?
Outside of T10, all law school faculty and admin are charlatans, fraudsters and hucksters who are selling kids a lifetime of penury and unemployment in exchange for being able to tack a law school diploma up on their basement wall.
why are there so many risk taking individuals out there? everyone is trying to play the lotto by going to law school. The risk is even bigger when you have an LSAT near 150 and you're going to an unaccredited school.
85, agreed. i tried to convince my kid brother of this before he enrolled in uc-hastings, but he was gung-ho to go to any law school -- aba accredited or not -- and fell for hastings' "we're accredited by the state bar" song-and-dance.
it's highway robbery!
What is with this tired old schtick wit UC Hastings?? Does anyone find it amusing?
The July 2009 bar passage rate at SNESL was 69.2%. SNESL graduates approximately 50 students per year. With such a low number of students sitting for the bar exam, just one person failing to pass the bar can make a significant impact on the bar pass percentage. Also, the majority of SNESL students are working full-time while going to law school and studying for the bar exam.
I can't help but wonder: How many students who passed the bar exam in Massachusetts were working full-time in the eight weeks leading up to the bar exam? The students at SNESL are heroic. I'd like to see some of the supposedly "brilliant" students from the Tier 1 Law Schools pass the bar exam while working full-time.