Super Law School Rankings
Last night, the WSJ Law Blog previewed a new set of law school rankings. Today, we have the full list from SuperLawyers. The magazine, in association with Minnesota Law & Politics and Washington Law & Politics, has ranked law schools based on the number of Super Lawyers they produce.
Is it a little self-serving for a magazine to rank law schools based on how many of the school’s graduates end up in its own magazine? Sure. It’s a little like US Weekly handing out Oscar nominations based on how many times a star has appeared on its cover.
But at least it is an attempt to rank schools based on graduate outcomes. The Super Lawyers Blog explains the rankings this way:
Most law school rankings look at things like bar passage rates, professor-to-student ratios and the number of books in the library, but they ignore the end product — the quality of lawyers produced. We think it’s like ranking football teams based on athletic facilities, player size and equipment without considering who wins the games.In the real world — the world of clients and juries and judges — no one cares about your GPA or LSAT score. All that matters is how good and ethical a lawyer you are. That’s the focus of Super Lawyers.
Schools are ranked according to the total number of graduates named to the state and regional Super Lawyers lists in 2009. In the event of a tie between schools, the cumulative peer evaluation and research scores of graduates are used as tie-breakers.
They care about how “ethical” you are in the real world? Who knew?
Enough with the preamble. Let’s explore the cream of the crop, the Super Lawyers top 20, after the jump.
Here are the top 20 law schools according to Super Lawyers:
1. Harvard Law School
2. University of Michigan Law School
3. The University of Texas School of Law
4. University of Virginia School of Law
5. Georgetown University Law Center
6. New York University School of Law
7. Columbia Law School
8. University of Florida Levin College of Law
9. University of California Berkeley School of Law
10. Yale Law School
11. University of California Hastings College of the Law
12. The George Washington University Law School
13. Boston University School of Law
14. UCLA School of Law
15. University of Pennsylvania Law School
16. The University of Chicago The Law School
17. Boston College Law School
18. Northwestern University School of Law
19. Stanford Law School
20. University of Miami School of Law
That’s an interesting-looking list, isn’t it? You’ve got 12 of the traditional top 14 represented within the Super Lawyers top 20. Duke and Cornell, I don’t know what to tell you.
Why does Yale rank only 10th on this list? Probably because the Super Lawyer people didn’t look at Super Lawyers per number of graduates. Instead, the magazine decided to ignore class size altogether. Here’s their reasoning:
We recognize that schools with smaller graduating classes may be at a disadvantage in our ranking. We considered taking into account class size, but decided not to this year for several reasons: First, we found that class size was not as big a factor as you might think. There were very large schools that ranked low and small schools that ranked high on our list. The quality of graduates, not the size of the school, is what ultimately determines where schools land on our list.Second, this first year we wanted to keep our methodology simple so that people could easily understand what we are doing. We reward schools that produce the greatest number of outstanding attorneys, period. Our approach is similar to the way baseball crowns a homerun king based on total homeruns without employing a weighted average based on plate appearances.
And finally, there is the practical problem of factoring in class size. The lawyers on our list graduated 10, 20 or 30 years ago. How do you accurately determine the graduation class sizes of nearly 200 schools through the years?
Fair enough, but Harvard Law School has been a diploma mill compared to Yale or Stanford over the past ten, twenty, or thirty years. The problem with the “home run” analogy is that every baseball team plays the same number of games, so theoretically every batter has a substantially similar opportunity to step up to the plate. Here, Harvard is playing nearly three times as many games as Yale plays. Yale is never going to compete on raw numbers (and, frankly, it doesn’t want to).
Super Lawyers has a very involved process for selecting its people. Perhaps some kind of “amount of Super Lawyers selected” over “amount of lawyers in the candidate pool” metric could be employed?
The list is valuable to the extent that becoming a Super Lawyer is as outcome-determinative as “winning a football game.” Reasonable people might disagree with that supposition. Even assuming Super Lawyers represent the top graduates at these schools, the outcomes of people at the very top might not have a lot to do with the expected value for the average student.
In this economy, prospective law students should be asking which law schools put them in the best position to get a job. Are you going to be better off coming out of the University of Florida Law School (ranked #8) or Stanford Law School (ranked #19)? And if Stanford makes you more employable, do you really care if UF produces more Super Lawyers?
Of course, do you really care which school has a bigger library? People don’t get jobs based on their LSAT scores. Rankings are always dicey, especially new ones. Moving towards a law school ranking based on the outcomes is at least a step in the right direction.
To access the full Super Lawyer list, click on the link below.
2010 Super Lawyers U.S. Law School Rankings [Super Lawyers]




Comments
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Dick Cheney loves you.
Do they bill you for the time it takes to get in their spandex costumes? Or is that just the policy at my firm?
FIRST to say first
If Harvard is a "diploma mill," what in god's name in georgetown?!
Breaking: GW just made the T-14. Feels good, huh?
.
.
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Also note that apparently it sucks to graduate from Howard Law.
Here is another problem--South Carolina is extremely high on the list. I'll bet the reason is that because for years and years there was only one law school in South Carolina, therefore 90% of SC Superlawyers were graduates of USC...ergo...
I am glad to see that my alma mater Harvard is considered by some to be better than Yale.
SMU is the Harvard of Texas and western Louisiana.
Can't anyone be a Super Lawyer? You just need to have a couple of co-workers or lawyer friends nominate you to the list, provide reasons, and oila.
What a joke.
where the FUCK is duke???????
Superlawyers are pussies. I am an UberLawyer.
Suck on this.
Skadden Secure
#9 - Bingo. Superlawyer designation is a joke. Big firms send out emails encouraging folks to vote, etc. It's just a stupid marketing gimmick and tells you nothing about a particularl attorney's skills.
Any ranking that puts UMiami in the top20 of anything but football needs a serious methodology revision.
I wish firms hired based on LSAT scores...
Superlawyer can't possibly be right. Their survey doesn't agree with AVVO.Com.
http://www.avvo.com/stats/school_overview
University of Washington Secure!
I wish firms hired based on LSAT scores...
Northwestern better watch out! Miami's running for them. What a joke.
I always knew Hastings was the 2nd best law school in CA, and now I have the ranking system to prove it.
#14, are you serious?!
ATL is sooo pissed that Yale is only 10.
CHECK YOU JEWS
So it's selection based on 1) networking, and 2) how much a person cares about getting a silly designation. It also excludes all in-house and government attorneys.
So, yeah, I'm going to say that this is ridiculous on its face.
What percentages of Yale and other top school grads go into academia? Academia could be claimed to be an important sort of output, which seems to go unaddressed by this ranking, and therefore can skew results.
Aren't the top 5% of lawyers in each state named as a Super Lawyer? It seems that, besides failing to take student body size into account, the rankings reward (a) decent regional schools that fill up smaller markets with lawyers (like UT or SMU in Texas and the midwest), and (b) good schools that scatter their graduates to the wind (like Harvard, which spreads graduates to all major markets, thereby boosting its chances of getting in the top 5% over and over again in state after state). If every Yale grad worked at BigLaw in NY, and they were the absolute top lawyers in the state, all of them still could not make the Super Lawyer list in NY (and would clearly not make it in any other state). This list seems incredibly flawed.
13 - What about number of students appearing in the police blotter? Or is that still a football related ranking?
University of Florida #8??? ha ha ha, very funny joke
This set of rankings fails to take into account "super lawyers" who engage in public service. Certain schools like William & Mary are known for their placement in the public service sector. Just because you're not in private practice doesn't mean you aren't a "super lawyer."
This set of rankings fails to take into account "super lawyers" who engage in public service. Certain schools like William & Mary are known for their placement in the public service sector. Just because you're not in private practice doesn't mean you aren't a "super lawyer."
These rankings merit no further discussion.
@25. I was going to say "in football or criminal activity" but I thought someone would call me racist.
-- 13.
The problem is that SuperLawyers is ranking law schools based upon lawyers 20+ years into practice.
What is the best law school 30 years ago is very different from now.
Which is why a shithole like George Washington is ranked so high.
My firm decided that the SuperLawyer rankings are so meaningless that it is ethically irresponsible to include the "distinction" in any marketing materials.
In other news...I have goat balls
such horseshit
Why not just rank the 50 states according to how many Super Lawyers they produce, without taking account of population. That would be just as meaningful.
this list is stupid
Yale #1
31 - you're an idiot. 30 years ago, GWU was lower ranked than it is now.
GWU SECURE
"People don’t get jobs based on their LSAT scores."
Yes they do, and that's part of the problem.
-- 177
24 - the "top 5 percent of lawyers" means what, exactly? Billing rates? Number of hours billed? LSAT scores? Number of bar exams passed? Number of clients retained? Number of years in practice? Prestige of law school/undergrad? Amount of punitive damages won for clients? Number of cases tried? Or, is it just a completely bullshit metric? One wonders...
Hey 26, I'd generally agree with you, but UF has produced a disproportionately large number of federal judges and other high profile lawyers. It comes with the territory of producing a huge graduating class in the third-largest state in the country.
"People don’t get jobs based on their LSAT scores."
Yes, they do. It's just indirectly so, based on the candidate's law school.
The inclusion of Miami removes any credibility that this list may have had.
In Texas being named a Super Lawyer is pretty much a declaration of your Super Douchiness. It means you went through the trouble of making sure all your colleagues/peers nominate/second you. It is something that one expects from, well, a Miami law school grad.
Ha ha...suck on my prestige bitches!
-UF Secure
39 - I couldn't agree more. I was simply making the point that based on whatever backwards metrics Super Lawyer uses to award its appellation, that distinction goes to the "top" 5% (again, by SL's metrics) of lawyers /per state/. That seems to yield some skewed data for states like Wyoming, Montana, etc. If law schools cared to up their ranking, they would have a perverse incentive to send graduates to uncompetitive, small markets where it would be easier to break into the "top 5%." On the flip side, being a top 5% lawyer in California or New York would be far more difficult. Graduates of SLS, Boalt, UCLA or NYU, Columbia, Fordham (respectively) are "punished" for staying in their school's home market and competing with fellow top graduates.
- 24
woooow this is completely meaningless. i thought it was not possible to make a ranking WORSE than usnews...this proved me wrong.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bar-tender/2009/11/mother-of-murdered-daughter-tries-to-recover-life-insurance-proceeds.html
lol ok cardozo isnt 131... this is horseshit
LOL at not correcting for size to "keep the methodology simple". It's fairly obvious that they considered it and then realized that size changes over time and that they would have to adjust for cohort effects using panel data. Truth is, they don't know how to do it. They suck. And their rankings are only one notch above Cooley's.
I have defeated many Super Lawyers and Rising Stars during my career. The only reason I am not a Super Lawyer is because A) I don't phone every colleague to cast a vote for me and B) I am not a sucker to part with $50K for a full page bio with a picture of me either wearing a ridiculous looking outfit or on a horse or very expensive car. For the most part, 50% of SuperLawyers are Super Idiots.
I have never even heard of super lawyers before this. total waste of time.
LOL at the t50 haha
Hastings, fuck yeah!
WOW this is completely useless. good job at further diluting the meaning of all rankings by adding another useless one.
davis @ 98, hastings @ 10...I guess thats what happens when you can't make out in the library... >_>
"How do you accurately determine the graduation class sizes of nearly 200 schools through the years?"
Call the school? Shoot them an email? They might keep these things called "records."
Hastings is back in the spotlight. Does this mean their accreditation was restored by the ABA? Can a Hastings student, on the basis of this prestigious ranking, claim to attend a t14 school?
Let me get this straight...
Everyone's school that went down hates the list, and everyone's that went up loves it.
No shit. Awesome post ATL.
54 - what's even more strange is that both UC Davis and UC Hastings are unaccredited by the ABA. Super Lawyers clearly forgot to take accreditation status into account for their rankings.
Yale is 10 and Stanford is 19 because of small class size. Duke and Cornell are not ranked for the same reason. Hard to explain why they dismiss this as irrelevant.
You can argue that the super lawyers' rankings are invalid. The fact that Cardozo is near the bottow on these rankings, however, sheds some credibility on this list.
When I woke up this morning, I was depressed, suicidal and walking with my head hung low. After reading these rankings, I feel giddy about my life. That's right, suck on my prestige.
-2L Hastings Baby!
Although I didn't go to Kansas or Missouri, as a person originally from that area, I'd just like to highlight the following: KU > mu
Also, it's worth mentioning that the University of South Carolina is ranked high on the list because people in SC hate "outsiders" and won't work with or hire non-South Carolinians. That's the only reason all the top attorneys are from University of South Carolina--no one else to compete with.
My school is ranked in the third tier by USNWR. However, it is ranked in the top tier by SuperLawyers, Cooleys' Scientific Ranking and by the Gorman Report. Am I prestigious or do you really think one rankings system beats out the credibility of the other 3?
This list is BS. It was created by using the total number of "super lawyers" per law school. Cornell and Duke and half the student body of Harvard or Georgetown. Of course, they are not going to be on this list. The only rational way to make such a list would be to divide the total number of super lawyers by the total number of graduates for the school. That way a diploma mill like UM would never make the list.
This list is BS. It was created by using the total number of "super lawyers" per law school. Cornell and Duke have half the student body of Harvard or Georgetown. Of course, they are not going to be on this list. The only rational way to make such a list would be to divide the total number of super lawyers by the total number of graduates for the school. That way a diploma mill like UM would never make the list.
I shaved my balls for this?
Glad to see the move away from artificial evaluation criteria, like LSAT, number of times I flunked the bar, bullshit like that.
I graduated from JFK SOL in Pleasant Hill, CA--what's my ranking?
Any ranking that has any institution from Florida in the top 10 is complete garbage, sorry, its just a fact.
Forget the problems with the methodology, the rankings don't seem to be right based on the methodology they claim to be using. Click on the school names and you will quickly see that, for example, Michigan has 2,074 "Super Lawyers" while Texas has 2,636. I guess it's possible that all of the Supers are not listed on the site, but I have my doubts.
FIRST to say that Elie and all of the small-school kids whining about the failure to account for class size are idiots.
Why does this ranking list have to do with the school's inherent prestigious or its marginal upside for prospective students.
This ranking is about sheer impact on the profession and alumni network. It may even be about degree portability. No need to read it as anything else.
JFK SOL = Why Bother
I don't get it. I see Miami, but where is Cooley?
Useless.
- MidLaw Secure.
Suck it, Cardozo.
-BLS Alum
Florida Coastal had a nice showing.
Yay, another meaningless d**k measuring contest for marginal law schools to trumpet. With so many people taking the LSAT this year, USNWR can't reap all the profit of "helping" student justify paying so much for lower tier schoools.
"Super Lawyer" is pure marketing scam; there are no performance criteria for it.
It's very rare you'll see "Super Lawyer" on a top-level lawyer's bio, because to indicate that you care about this marketing sham is strong evidence that you are TTT.
Thus the "Super Lawyer" list is dominated by such TTTs, who hope to deceive those clients who are so gullible and naive that they can be taken in by it.
PSA: This is the only law school ranking that matters because it consists ENTIRELY of recruiter/employer perceptions. You're welcome.
http://consusrankings.com/2008/04/03/vaultcom-top-25-law-schools-2008/
The only thing "Super" is the unwillingness to understand and/or apply basic principles of teh discipline known as statistics.
Even if they had, who cares? Really, another ranking scheme?
Simply nauseating.
Behold, I am "keeping my methodology simple": suck it.
One problem with using the total number of super lawyers as the measuring stick for law schools is that it doesn't take into account how many of those "Super Lawyers" are ranked for slum practice areas like family law, DUI defense (yes that's a category), immigration, and workers' compensation, to name a few. It's not surprising that a school like University of Florida would produce a significant number of attorneys that practice in Florida and rank in these low-end practice areas, but contribute little or nothing to BIGLAW practice areas like M&A and high end corporate litigation. Of course, if the goal of a J.D. is to secure gainful employment as an attorney, then according to this ranking, U of F may be a good school (not that I would have considered applying there).
Super Duper Lawyer
One problem with using the total number of super lawyers as the measuring stick for law schools is that it doesn't take into account how many of those "Super Lawyers" are ranked for slum practice areas like family law, DUI defense (yes that's a category), immigration, and workers' compensation, to name a few. It's not surprising that a school like University of Florida would produce a significant number of attorneys that practice in Florida and rank in these low-end practice areas, but contribute little or nothing to BIGLAW practice areas like M&A and high end corporate litigation. Of course, if the goal of a J.D. is to secure gainful employment as an attorney, then according to this ranking, U of F may be a good school (not that I would have considered applying there).
Super Duper Lawyer
Wow, flagrant state school trolling -- 7 of the top 14 schools including academic powerhouses like UF and Hastings.
this is dumb, unreliable
if you don't put yale #1, we don't pay attention
The Super Lawyer magazine awards where I previously lived, in the Bay Area, were dominated by personal injury and other plaintiff-side firms that bought advertising space. Agree with 76 that the Super Lawyer designation seems largely to be a marketing device. Reminds me of "Who's Who" awards, pursued rather than bestowed based on merit.
81 = rancid BU/GW trolling
ATL/Layoff Tracker:
How about a law school ranking based on number of grads laid off this year? I bet it's more accurate than this one!
The fact that you are rejoicing over this proves you are a BLS grad.
-Cardozo Alum
I attend GULC.
I just saw PE dart out of Sullivan & Cromwell's front door shouting "check out my size."
These are the dumbest rankings ever -- up there with the Cooley Ranking's inclusion of number of library seats at the school. The only small schools in the top 14 are Berkeley (small-ish) and Yale (really small), but not any of the other small T14s -- Stanford, Chicago, Penn, Northwestern, Duke, Cornell.
1. Harvard - 550
2. Michigan - 350
3. Texas - 450
4. UVA - 350
5. Georgetown - 600
6. NYU - 450
7. Columbia - 400
8. Florida - ~350
9. Berkeley - 250
10. Yale - 200
11. Hastings - 400+
12. GW - 600
13. Boston University - 300
14. UCLA - 300
In other words, the average school on this list has a class size of 400 students. Good luck to the Stanfords and Chicagos on this survey with their 170-180 student classes.
89, i can't believe you took the time to look all that up. for godsake, be secure in your choice of school, man!
of the schools you listed (one of which you obviously attend), i would guess it's cornell or penn.
84, the USNews Rankings:
BU: 20
GW: 28
Hastings: 39
UF: 51
Schools outside of the T20 have always been questionable. BU has been on the rise in recent years (arguably, through a bit of gaming -- cutting its class size down), but offers a reasonably good education, especially if you want to work in Boston. GW takes a PR hit for its sad part-time program and being oversized, but otherwise, it's good enough for someone wanting to work in DC. Hastings' glory days are long gone (with changes in retirement policies, can no longer poach old profs from other schools) and with all the CA budget cuts, its decline will only be hastened. And, UF is only good if you want to stay in FL and practice T&E law. HTH.
63: Yes.
Where is Liberty, God damn it?
SMU pride
THIS PROVES HASTINGS IS UNDERRATED. GO HASTINGS!
HASTINGS LAWYERS CAN BEAT BOALT/STANFORD LAWYERS ANY DAY IN COURT
Hastings is, and has always been, accredited. The that was under scrutiny in SF was Golden Gate University.
Hastings deserves to be top 20 on any list. Why?
1) I graduated from Hastings in 2008. At 2L OCI (in the top 25 percent) I had 33 BigLaw interviews and 9 offers.
2) All my first-year profs wrote their own texts and my Civ Pro Prof (Hazard) taught Justice Alito at Yale.
I agree with the Vault rankings guy...
I'd rather know what the recruiters/law firms have to say about schools, because that's where I'd like to work.
Somewhere between USNWR and Vault, you should have a pretty decent idea.
And if you're some kind of academic purist, you might look at the Leiter rankings too, but I don't really give a crap about that.
Wow! Now I go to a T-5 instead of a T-14. Too bad I'm still unemployed. Thanks for nothing, Georgetown.
Awesome!
Cooley cracked the top 150!
And SHU is in the top 50!
These rankings rock!
86 - meet you at the library this Saturday? Oh wait...
96: Applying what you learned at Hastings, I see. In order:
1) You don't indicate the caliber of firms you were applying to, how many firms you applied to, where the offers came from, whether you had law review, etc. You could have applied to 50 TTT firms with Hastings Law Review. Of course, you'd get a high percent of callbacks / offers then. Nor, do you realize that you might receive even more callbacks / offers from better firms at a better school.
2) Unless we're talking about textbooks that are widely used throughout the country, this means nothing. Lots of profs write their own pet textbooks that virtually no one else uses except them. This is even more common in CA, at lower ranked schools that have to teach to the bar -- they write / use their own textbooks more oriented to CA so they can teach more black letter.
And, one prof teaching someone famous does not a good school make. You could easily play the same association game with any moderately ranked school -- profs are sure to have crossed paths with someone on SCOTUS.
96, you should take up your argument with U.S. News and Vault, I'm sure they would be receptive to changing their rankings of Hastings based on your personal experience. Hastings may be top 20 if you want to work in SF or LA, but it's not a top 20 school nationally. But so what, it's still a good school.
91 - I'm aware of where those schools (generally) rank in USNWR. They are all TTT's, but Hastings is not more of a TTT than BU. Sorry. Each one deserves to be called out.
-84
Penn has really gone down hill since the Penn State merger. They could go back to being independent but apparently don't want to give up the football prestige.
Holy crap, look at all the love/hate for Hastings. Don't you people have exams to prep for? No, on second thought, keep trawlin' yawl.
--HASTINGS INSECURE
104 FTW
In other news, Who's Who will be ranking law schools based on the number of applications received from featured students
103: Yes, Hastings is more of a TTT than BU:
LSAT:
BU: 163/165/166
Hastings: 161/163/165
GPA:
BU: 3.48/3.68/3.82
Hastings: 3.38/3.57/3.72
Employed 9 Mo After Grad:
BU: 96.6%
Hastings: 89.6%
CALIFORNIA Bar Passage Rate (My Favorite):
BU: 86%
Hastings: 80%
bar passage rate is misleading because only the best BU students move to california (because it's not a national school) but almost all of hastings students take the california bar (because it's also not a national school)
It's all about the U!
Love watching all the BigLaw D-bags squirm
Florida rules - Go Gators
http://bu.lawschoolnumbers.com/
v.
http://hastings.lawschoolnumbers.com/
OCI...Hastings wins...
109: Okay, 395/416 (~95%) Hastings students took the CA bar. 126/284 (~44%) BU students took the MA bar, while another 72 (~25%) took the NY bar, and another 28 (~10%) took the CA bar. Even if BU isn't a national school (which I don't think it is), don't lump it with a borderline-TTT like Hastings where it's virtually impossible to get an out of state job.
112: Wow, you're an idiot. In addition to ignoring every objective category where BU wins, you cite the OCI numbers which have 157 CA firms interviewing at Hastings. There are barely 20 elite CA firms, much less 157. Wow, Hastings has tons of TTT firms interviewing at it -- that's what I think of when I think of an elite law school!
xoxo actually had a pretty good ranking thread floating around a few months ago. looked at firm placement with control for academia and a pile of smaller factors.
Hastings is, and has always been, acredited.
Why Hastings Deserves Top 20 Rank:
1) I had 33 BigLaw Interviews during 2L OCI and 8 offers (I graduated in top 25% in 2008)
2) My first year profs all wrote their own text books; Prof. Hazard, my civ pro prof, taught Justice Alito civil procedure at Yale.
Cooley is, and has always been, acredited.
Why Cooley Deserves Top 20 Rank:
1) I had 30 BigLaw Interviews during 2L OCI and 10 offers (I graduated in top 25% in 2008)
2) My first year profs all wrote their own text books; Dean Brennan, the founder of Cooley, was a Michigan Supreme Court Justice!
3) Tons o' library seats. Don't ever knock our library.
Northeastern is 107th!! Hooray!!! Coincidentally, this will be our ranking next year when we finally (and deservedly) fall back into the third tier!!!
Unemployed Northeastern motherfucking '07
116/117 is employing a rather strange trolling technique. What are we supposed to take from that brace of posts?
Super Lawyers is a joke of an award. I know people who've been nominated for it and/or got it SHEERLY based on political capital. Getting the award doesn't mean you're a good lawyer; it's means you're good at kissing the right asses and getting good PR. MANY "Super Lawyers" are only there because they inherited a major major client (e.g., Microsoft, Wal-Mart, Boeing, Northrupp Grumman, Berkshire Hathaway, etc.) from a retired partner who MIGHT have actually been a halfway decent lawyer -- or maybe even poached like the total douchenozzles they are -- and the GCs at these huge monolithic companies are in bed with the Anointed One and make sure he (or she, but usually he) makes whatever stupid list they feel justifies their lack of oversight.
It seriously has almost nothing to do with actual skill. The list is a joke, so the rankings are a joke.
SuperLawyer = MicroPenis
that's just basic maths.
WHAT THE FUCK ATL. Here I am, minding my own business browsing the comments and OUT OF FUCKING NOWHERE my speakers start playing a commercial.
Get rid of the Cadillac ad. COMMERCIALS SHOULD NOT PLAY FOR A NON-VIDEO LINK UNLESS I TELL THEM TOO YOU FUCKING IDIOTS. I mean, do you people not even REALIZE who most of your readers ARE (i.e., lawyers trying not to get fired for wasting time reading your blog)???
I am now rejecting all UC Davis resumes that come across my desk. Whilst I was previously willing to give a few of those poor souls possessing exceptional physical beauty and an uncommon willingness to please some benefit of the doubt despite UC Davis' lack of accreditation, being ranked a lowly 98 on the SuperLawyers list gives me no choice but to turn them away wholesale in order to safeguard the reputation of my firm.
TTT Hiring Partner
gah, typo. But my point remains.
-122
Why the BU/Hastings rivalry? Who cares. Each and everyone of these schools has good professors and they have bad professors. They have good programs and bad programs. They have students who do well and students who do not.
You cannot qualitatively compare the whole experience for all students and say definitively which one is better, try as you might though through your inane postings. And I can't fathom why anyone would even care.
At least at BU though there is less chance of someone sticking you with their used heroine needle.
Why the BU/Hastings rivalry? Who cares. Each and everyone of these schools has good professors and they have bad professors. They have good programs and bad programs. They have students who do well and students who do not.
You cannot qualitatively compare the whole experience for all students and say definitively which one is better, try as you might though through your inane postings. And I can't fathom why anyone would even care.
At least at BU though there is less chance of someone sticking you with their used heroine needle.
Miami? Hah...ok yeah right #20? Miami isn't even number 20 in the Third Tier. I could've maybe bought the rankings until that....clearly the main criteria is how many graduates a school spits out.
Speaking of Michigan, can we use this space to nominate the Worst Student Blogs? My buddy sent me this and we are no longer friends. Painfully unfunny.
http://sweatshorts.tumblr.com/
All rewards that I haven't won are meaningless jokes.
Of course a young school like Cardozo isn't going to be ranked highly on a list that measures the QUANTITY of lawyers in certain areas.
There are simply fewer graduates of a school whose first class graduated 30 years ago.
Florida in the top 10? Miami at 20? Laugh it up. 20 is closer to the number of the 400+ 3Ls from UMiami that have jobs than it is to their ranking.
First to say these rankings may actually replace the Thomas M Cooley rankings as the dumbest fucking ranking system ever
96 -- you forgot to mention that Hazard calls himself "Daddy."
But Hastings deserves to be on the top because whereelse can students hear sirens 24/7, see drugs deals and prostitutes just outside of school, and have to avoid drive-bys?
90% of SuperPosters on ATL are 0L, 5% from IL and 4% jdunderground crowd, 0.1% real lawyers, 0.9% Lat's personal characters (PE, Jake, Walrus, etc)
125/126: The relevance for most students is as follows:
Before starting, you really don't know how you'll do at whatever school -- you might be top 10%, top third, or bottom half. It's at least quasi-random -- there are Ivy ugrad students who do horrible in law school and state school ugrad students who get Coif. However, the better your law school, the better the margin of error. Ex, you can do pretty badly at HYS and still have great (at least, pre-recession) job prospects. That lessens as you go down the rankings.
Based on all available stats, you have a lot better margin of error going to BU than going to Hastings. I.e. (Sans recession) the average BU student still has a shot at middling biglaw in Boston, whereas the average Hastings student is probably going to be looking at small firm CA practice. And given Hastings' in-resident tuition is skyrocketing, that's not going to give most students a good chance to payoff their loans.
The whole point of the rankings (aside from naked prestige) is to give you a good idea of which school will give you the best chance to advance your career prospects. The Hastings trolls are trying to pretend that Hastings competes well with T20 schools like BU, but really, it doesn't -- definitely not anywhere outside of CA, and maybe not even in CA either. I'd rather take an average BU, ND, BC, GW, Fordham, etc. student than an average Hastings student any day.
I like the ranking because it rates my school high, but it is a little ridiculous because Superlawyers is stupid. I practice maritime law in the Northeast and the guys/gals ranked on there have never been heard of by anyone that really practices in the field. It seems to be a beauty contest for firms that waste money on these things.
Hey 9, 12, 22, 32, 34, 39, 43, 50, 53, 76, 83, 120 and anyone else who dismisses the Super Lawyers selection process. This is Bill White, Publisher of Super Lawyers and Law & Politics. How about taking a moment to read what Judge Robert Fall, the Special Master appointed by the New Jersey Supreme Court in the Opinion 39 case, had to say about the process -- this after reviewing thousands of documents and listening to days of testimony:
“[The Super Lawyers selection process] is a comprehensive, good-faith and detailed attempt to produce a list of lawyers that have attained high peer recognition, meet ethical standards, and have demonstrated some degree of achievement in their field."
"Suffice to say, the selection procedures employed by Key Professional Media, Inc., are very sophisticated, comprehensive and complex."
“It is absolutely clear from this record that [Super Lawyer does] not permit a lawyer to buy one’s way onto the list, nor is there any requirement for the purchase of any product for inclusion in the lists or any quid pro quo of any kind or nature associated with the evaluation and listing of an attorney or in the subsequent advertising of one’s inclusion in the lists.”
135
You make excellent points. Nevertheless, I still think it is silly to try and make these comparisons and value judgments (such as what school will give you the better education).
Your future will be decided by how well you do in your school far more than your school's name and all this TTT nonsense on here is silly.
But it's also silly that I can't seem to avoid double posting. Let's see if I can get it right this time...
125/126
lol @ 137
http://xkcd.com/386/
Michigan is #1 on a per capita basis.
Suck on it, Harvard, you Michigan of the East.
137: Bill, you do your job trying to sell ad space on SuperLawyers and I will do mine, which is kick SuperLawyer ass in court week in and week out.
Very Truly Yours,
50
LOL@137
141 FTW
Bill, I appreciate your loyalty to your employer. But everyone knows that superlawyerz is unethical per se.
I do agree that *all* comparative advertising is not necessarily unethical as misleading or deceptive.
But everyone knows that superlawyerz is a marketing scam, at best. Seriously, it's an industry joke.
It's unethical because everyday people (i.e. potential clients) don't know that it's an industry joke and may rely upon the laughable superlawyer designation in making a choice of attorney.
The most legendary, groundbreaking, peer esteemed attorneys in any practice area are NEVER superlawyerz. Being a superlawyer isn't anything to be proud of; it's just a handy marketing tool.
But thanks for playing!
I bet 87% of these "SuperLawyers" also received the honor of being named to Who's Who Among Students in American Colleges and Universities.
I suppose I should know this, but is Yale Law School an accredited member of the American Bar Association and a member in good standing of Association of American Law Schools ?
Contrary to what Mystal seems to be suggesting with his critical analysis, a quick look at the data reveals that Harvard also produces more per capita than Yale or Stanford.
The methodology behind the rankings is worse than a 5th grader trying to do long division. Hard to take their rankings at all seriously.
145: I don't normally defend Mystal, but his point was fair. No one was suggesting that Yale or Stanford would have been ahead of Harvard on a per capita basis. It's more that Yale and Stanford ranked much lower than they usually do in other surveys, and that would likely be different if the per capita figures were used. In other words, Yale and Stanford would, at the very least, probably be in the top 5, not 10 and 19 respectively, if the per capita figures were used.
"Also, we didn't account for class size because repeating the USN&WR rankings wouldn't get hits or sell magazines."
148: Haha, sure, but it fails the "smell" test, which is that HYS need to rank highly for the rankings to have any credibility. It's like the Cooley rankings all over again -- no one is going to take them seriously because much worse schools rank ahead of Yale, Stanford, etc. You can do a little bit of shuffling around to keep people interested, but if your rankings are too far from the norm, they lose credibility.
You're not going to see many people taking UF, Hastings, GW, BU over Penn, Chicago, Stanford, so having that much of a shakeup makes the rankings look ridiculous and not a credible read of how firms regard graduates of those schools.
149: Right. But, as a UF undergrad alumn, let me just say, it may not be Haaaaaarvaaaaaaaaard, but at least UF hasn't forgotten its mission as a state university (like UVA and MEchigan).
--147
sorry, I meant to sign "--148"
--148/150
137, Bill, whatever you want to be called:
Congrats! Your publication was given the thumbs-up by the New Jersey Supreme Court.
There's a reason we New Yorkers make fun of Jersey. That's because it sucks. And it's filled with TTT'ers who need something like Super Lawyers to validate their meager existence.
If you're actually a legit publisher, shouldn't you be doing something more productive than trolling the ATL message boards?
USC (41) outranked by Suffolk, Seton Hall, Loyola, SMU? Is this because of the Stanford game?
People should not get all riled up about SuperLawyers. It is just a lame marketing ploy that is designed for unsuspecting clients. Like a previous poster mentioned, no one in the legal community takes SuperLawyers seriously. I will share two stories relating to SuperLawyers.
The first story involves a husband-wife lawyer combo in New Jersey. The husband, who is a decent (read: nothing spectacular) lawyer, was named a SuperLawyer in 2005 and his wife was not. His wife is known as a hapless and ineffective attorney who, miraculously was named a SuperLawyer the following year with a nice (and presumably expensive) glossy ad about the firm on the SuperLawyers publication. Whenever the wife would walk in court, as a joke other attorneys would flank and avoid eye contact with her because her "Superness" may turn someone into a gargoyle. Many SuperLawyers in that court thought her inclusion in the SuperLawyer ranks damaged the already weakened credibitilty of the designation.
The second story involved an CLE seminar in New Jersey. The main speaker was introduced as a SuperLawyer. After his lecture, the forum was opened for questions and a young lawyer asked him: "If you are a SuperLawyer, where is your cape?" Everyone in the lecture hall erupted in laughter and the scene confirmed that pretty much amongst attorneys, the whole Superlawyer thing is a cheap gag.
The fact that the NJ Supreme Court said it was ok doesn't mean SuperLawyers is ethical. In my opinion, it is not. Just wait for the first legal malpractice/consumer fraud case to be filed against an attorney on the client's reliance of the Superlawyer designation.
To conclude, neither the SuperLawyer or Super Law School rankings should be taken seriously.
Sucks to BU
My school improved in rank here versus in USNews. Thus, I approve these rankings.
ur doing it right!
--Texas grad
I must protest this ranking system on one ground. The mag picks super lawyers in each state. If you practice in MA where there are many laws schools some of them among the best in the country, the chance of being a super lawyer is smaller when compared to those practicing in say Montana.
I'm a Miami Law grad. I dislike the school and its reputation as much - or more - than many of the haters here.
It's important to note that school-for-school, Miami puts out a LOT of litigators and solo practitioners, many of whom accordingly end up on the "Super Lawyers" list.
In Florida generally and south Florida specifically, Miami Law has a stellar reputation. Remember that while few of us end up in white-shoe law firms, many of us see publicity through our practices. That there are LOTS of us - it's a big school - further skews the figures.
I'm a little surprised to see Miami Law in the top 20 of anything, but here, according to their criteria, I suppose we fit.
W&L is all the way down the list at 95. Nice work guys!
TEXAS? Did you say TEXAS?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
Damn, I spilled my latte all over my keyboard.
I have no idea who SuperLawyers is, but they are obviously smoking large quantities of crack cocaine.
UT is a TTT barely accredited. My firm uses them as temp paralegals at $20/hr, and their work is crappy.
UT. Thanks for the gutbuster.
161 = SMU Law grad
Finally, a ranking system that actually looks at output rather than input. US News criteria measure marketing better than quality of lawyers produced. Who cares what your LSAT was or how many times your Race-crit professor has been cited?
- Sitting on my balcony, in shorts, looking out over Biscayne Bay, with a great job secure! - Suck it.
No Emory in the top 20? WTF??
You know this is bogus if Oklahoma City University or Cal Western (go Cal Wee Wee!) isn't tops.
And what about Regents?
If Oral Roberts University hadn't sold its law school (and still had Anita Hill on staff [heh, heh, I said "staff") they'd be everyone's daddy.
"Even assuming Super Lawyers represent the top graduates at these schools, the outcomes of people at the very top might not have a lot to do with the expected value for the average student."
That's why Ivy league schools never mention their alums at the very top who now sit on Federal Courts of Appeals or their Supreme Court Justice count...cause statistically the perception of the school's quality would be skewed.
Anyways, the last few lines at least made sense; law students should care about one thing - getting a job. If Northwestern helps you do that better than Suffolk, then they should be above Suffolk on the list.
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All that matters is how good and ethical a lawyer you are? Scott Rothstein and Stuart Rosenfeldt were both listed as Superlawyers in the 2009 Florida edition!!!! Time to reevaluate what constitutes a "Super Lawyer."
All that matters is how good and ethical a lawyer you are? Scott Rothstein and Stuart Rosenfeldt were both listed as Superlawyers in the 2009 Florida edition!!!! Time to reevaluate what constitutes a "Super Lawyer."
All that matters is how good and ethical a lawyer you are? Scott Rothstein and Stuart Rosenfeldt were both listed as Superlawyers in the 2009 Florida edition!!!! Time to reevaluate what constitutes a "Super Lawyer."