Everything is bigger in Texas — even the law student explosions. A tipster gives us the lowdown on some super-sized bitching, spearheaded by three UT Law students:
It seems that three 1Ls took it upon themselves to lambaste our curriculum, our professors, the “Institution” of law school, etc. due to what they perceive as a lack of practical education. That would be pretty un-newsworthy had they not published their cavalcade in The Daily Texan.
I love it when law school communities air their dirty laundry in the press. There’s something so, je ne sais quoi, mais je sais que c’est merde, about it. Here’s the lede for the item from The Daily Texan:
The University of Texas School of Law was recently embarrassed in legal-industry news by a story claiming a law professor delayed releasing his class’s grades by two months — so long that employers had to tell a student they had filled all of their summer internship vacancies while he was waiting for this grade.
The incident is a symptom of a deeper problem at UT Law that has drawn criticism from all corners of the legal industry: Lax institutional standards have marginalized the law school’s role in society of preparing its students to be competent, ethical lawyers.
It looks like the UT 1Ls noticed our little story on grade delays last month.
But that’s just the teaser. Hey, UT – Law students, tell us what you really think …
It’s rare that law students publicly warn prospective employers that their school should be avoided like a plague (of armadillos?), but I suppose the 1Ls are just sharing their honest opinion:
Last semester, a well-known lawyer wrote to law school Dean Lawrence Sager, charging that UT graduates are incompetent legal writers and that he would never hire a UT Law graduate again.
These criticisms are well-founded. In a survey of accredited law schools, Texas was the only school without a mandatory brief-writing course. In fact, only about half of first-year students surveyed reported being able to get into a brief-writing course. As a result, they will not be trained how to present arguments to a court — one of the most basic legal skills.
What is this “court” you speak of? Sounds exciting, maybe Biglaw firms can bring in one of these “courts” as lunchtime entertainment for the doc review teams?
Aside from not getting the skills they believe law school should be teaching them, the UT students are also annoyed at grade inflation:
Instead of rectifying the problem by meeting national practical skills standards, UT Law instead chooses to steer law students away from taking practical courses by offering grossly grade-inflated first-year electives on such totally impractical topics as Race and Gender in the Constitution.
The first-year curve in all courses is set at 3.3; the average in these “electives” is a 3.8.
A student in one of these classes commented, “The class is a complete joke and a waste of time, but the professor gives almost everyone A’s.” Since law students’ employment is determined by their first-year GPA, creating such an exception to the curve is unfair to other students and misleading to employers relying on the veracity of student transcripts.
Any employer that had a UT – Law transcript sitting on his or her desk right now just glanced at the trash bin. We know what you’re thinking. Resist the urge! I’m sure the UT 1Ls will give you a good reason to hold onto that résumé in just a moment:
[A] number of UT Law professors interviewed for this editorial expressed concern that the law school should do more to meet the public’s need for competent lawyers and have many specific ideas about how this may be achieved.
Law students should be trained to identify legal problems, write effective briefs and litigate cases. But other professors indicate that an institutional pressure to produce scholarship has stifled interest in pursuing a valid educational model.
Yeah, that sound you just heard was the soft hum of UT careers being fed into the office shredder. Please recycle.
Just in case the message wasn’t totally clear, the 1Ls end their missive with a very telling line (emphasis added):
UT Law graduates should be competent, responsible and ethical attorneys from their first day of practice. Texas deserves nothing less from its flagship law school.
Gosh, not only are UT graduates incompetent and irresponsible, now they’re unethical too? Next thing you know these 1Ls will be filing malpractice claims against firms that hire their fellow students.
Look, the article was written by 1Ls, and 1Ls have to be taken with a grain of salt (lime and Patrón optional). But, as an employer with more applications than you know what to do with, how can you ignore an article like this? Kids who are on the ground at the institution are essentially saying “our school stinks” and “don’t hire us.” Aren’t you almost forced to take that into account when looking at a kid with UT – Law on their transcript?
If you are a UT law student or graduate who likes the school and/or doesn’t want to be unemployed for the rest of your life, now might be an appropriate time to speak up. Some of your own just said your degree isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.
Meanwhile, something tells me that every SMU law student will be appending the Daily Texan article to their résumé.
Law students need a practical education [Daily Texan]
Earlier: Hey, Teacher … Give Those Kids Their Grades! Grades delayed at W&M, UT – Austin… anywhere else?
UTTTTTTT? First!
UTTTTTTT? First!
UTTTTTTT? First!
CHECK YOU CREACC!
Does anyone really care what happens in TTTexas, why would anyone want to live or work there?
And this is supposed to be the “best” law school in Texas?!?
Luckily these 1L’s have nothing to worry about. You weren’t getting a biglaw gig from TTTexas unless you were top 10% anyway.
self-pawn
5-
you forgot why would anyone want to go to school TTThere?
Make no mistake, if you don’t think Race and Gender in the Constitution is the best law school class to prepare someone for life at a big law firm, you are a racist who does not appreciate the value of diversity.
V10 UT3L…….suck it bitches
I wonder if these students wrote this because they weren’t promised a 3500 sq. ft. wife and a Lexis upon graduation.
Elie,
You left out the “que” that should be between “sais” and “c’est”
Iowa Guy
A few points from an 08 UT law grad now in NY biglaw:
1) I learned to write at my liberal arts college, and UT’s 1L writing course taught me enough to write legal memos as a summer associate. While those without much writing experience (chem majors from big state schools) were at a disadvantage coming in, I don’t think it’s the job of a law school to teach basic writing skills.
2) It was easy to get into appellate brief writing as an elective when I was there, and pretty much all of us got an A.
3) The 1Ls who know enough to shut up are usually the ones who get jobs later.
4) Comment 4 was the first “CHECK YOU” joke I laughed at.
There is a hebrew lawyer in my office who always leaves before the admins do. He’s not going to make it very far in life. He also uses weird hebrew words sometimes and he’s really short.
Wasn’t this story on non-sequiters like two days ago?
Should’ve gone to 12th-ranked Cooley.
Cutting off nose to spite face…
(While all other UT students are imbeciles, please hire me next summer)
Serious question please. Is anyone considering taking advantage of the Spring for a Lexus event? I am tempted and sometimes I think, why not?, I deserve it.
LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I chuckle at this.
SMU secure
UT law kids will never be able to afford their lexis
Obviously, the course work at UTLaw is too much for these idiot 1L’s who make themselves even less marketable by writing about this nonsense. A smart student would not do this.
They should be at Cooley anyway.
Good job guys.
This is an accurate summary of UT, but also of every other law school. Does he really think that graduates of, say, Georgetown are getting more of a practical legal education? It takes precisely one day on ATL to see that it’s possible to even get through Harvard without gaining the ability to proofread or think clearly.
Mr. Mystal, why the obsession with these non-peer schools today? First, an article on Cornell and now UT. As for UT, I can honestly say that the only talent you will find in Texas is located here:
http://www.ricks.com/club/default.aspx?id=11001
“Aren’t you almost forced to take that into account when looking at a kids with UT – Law on their transcript?”
I think you mean “looking at kids with UT-Law” – not “looking at a kids with UT – Law.”
HTH
I guess the old saying “if you’re gonna play in Texas you gotta have a fiddle and a band, that lead geetar is playing ‘cotton eyed joe’” reigns true and supreme.
– Associate Emeritus
shut up 28. go to top-law-schools if you want rainbows and sunshine blown up your asshole.
Texas is where whales go to die.
UVA secure
When I want to know what employers want from law students, I’ll talk to a hiring partner. When I want to know nothing, I’ll talk to a 1L.
-UT 3L with COA clerkship and V10 offers (quoting a comment from the Daily Texan’s comments section).
What is the second to last ‘C’ in CREACC? Concusion, Rule, Example(?), Analysis, Cunnilinglus, Conclusion?
“1Ls have to be taken with a grain of salt (lime and Patrón optional)”
Elie, was revealing your kinky sexual habits really necessary in this post?
There are excellent classes at UT if you want to take them. If you want to take race and the constitution and complain about not knowing how to write, you deserve the public defender job you’ll get. And I have quite a few friends who are more than happy taking BS classes and having their pick of Big Law firms.
As to why anyone would want to live in Texas, the NY salary and Mississippi cost of living isn’t a bad start.
27 – go play on jdunderground
29,
i went to the ivy league for undergrad and law school. i’m a partner in bigBigLaw in NYC. My comment was to point out that despite UT’s issues (see article) their grads get jobs. I know from colleagues who I have beaten in fed court in Texas.
– Associate Emeritus
Anybody know where to get a good rub and tug in NYC?
-Nick Nailor
What a bunch of morons. Did they honestly believe that folks from Harvard Law or NYU Law have courses called “how to do a dox review”, “How to deal with partners and clients”, “Drafting a merger agreement” etc. If they did believe that, then I am the Queen of England.
Fools. You just shot your own foot.
What a bunch of morons. Did they honestly believe that folks from Harvard Law or NYU Law have courses called “how to do a dox review”, “How to deal with partners and clients”, “Drafting a merger agreement” etc. If they did believe that, then I am the Queen of England.
Fools. You just shot your own foot.
Hi,
I am 27 years old and have giant balls. But, I also have strangely hairy nipples. How do I get women to notice my giant balls and not the tufts of boob hair? Any advice would be helpful.
What a bunch of morons. Did they honestly believe that folks from Harvard Law or NYU Law have courses called “how to do a dox review”, “How to deal with partners and clients”, “Drafting a merger agreement” etc. If they did believe that, then I am the Queen of England.
Fools. You just shot your own foot.
I graduated from UT roughly 10 yrs ago. I thought it was an excellent education. However, it is just a law school and has the limitations of any law school.
I don’t understand this whiney new crop of students. YOU are responsible for your own education and career. Don’t take electives that you feel are nonsense. Join a clinic if you want real world experience. Do moot court if you want brief writing experience. Volunteer with a public interest organization. Join a journal.
There are a ton of things you can do during law school to prepare yourself for being a lawyer. Just sitting in class and expecting professors to spoon feed you the essentials to becoming a great lawyer just doesn’t cut it.
What a bunch of morons. Did they honestly believe that folks from Harvard Law or NYU Law have courses called “how to do a dox review”, “How to deal with partners and clients”, “Drafting a merger agreement” etc. If they did believe that, then I am the Queen of England.
Fools. You just shot your own foot.
What a bunch of morons. Did they honestly believe that folks from Harvard Law or NYU Law have courses called “how to do a dox review”, “How to deal with partners and clients”, “Drafting a merger agreement” etc. If they did believe that, then I am the Queen of England.
Fools. You just shot your own foot.
“What is the second to last ‘C’ in CREACC? Concusion, Rule, Example(?), Analysis, Cunnilinglus, Conclusion?”
Conclusion, Rule, Explanation, Analysis, Counter-analysis, Conclusion
-ALWD Secure
UT 3L Am Law top 10 offer
Hey 1Ls, take a step back from the computer, take a breath, and blow yourselves. It’ll be the best thing to happen to you until you leave law school.
Did these fools just shoot their own foot?
actually, Harvard and NYU *do* have classes in how to draft merger agreements. Your Majesty.
actually, Harvard and NYU *do* have classes in how to draft merger agreements. Your Majesty.
Elie,
You’re lack of analysis and insight that goes into most of your posts is becoming annoying. Instead of discussing paper shredders and breaking the student-written article down and inserting unfunnny, unwitty comments, try to evaluate what the students are trying to convey. This article could actually serve as a springboard into a more nuanced conversation about institutional legal education, grade inflation and the general immaturity of privileged law students. Lat, please take over.
I am not asking for sunshines or lollipops. I am asking for some sort of guess as to where I should apply so I won’t be shelling out money to apply to schools I have no shot of getting in. Also, if the best place I can get into is like University of Houston, I’m not even going to bother to apply. Thanks for the bitter bitter advice.
-28
What is up with law students these days? First the Mayer Brown mutineers, and now these idiots. Earth to you, nobody wants to hear you whine. You went into this situation with your eyes open. The only thing that will help you right now is stellar grades.
They shootin’! Aw, made you look. You a slave to a page in my rhyme book.
Bye bye 52!
Anybody hip to where I can gets myself a good rub and tug in the NYC?
-Mathew Fisher
28/53 – I kind of hope you get herpes.
28/53 – I kind of hope you go blind and marry a woman who insists she’s good looking but she actually looks like Blossom and everyone laughs at you.
Graduated from UT Law in the early 2000’s. When I was there, legal research and writing was a required 1L class. I went on to take other practical classes, including state court trial and appeal procedural courses and an advanced civil litigation course that included taking depositions, drafting pleadings and briefs, and other practical litigation skills. At last check, these courses were still offered at the law school and people continue to take them.
Of course, the “scholarly” types would never take these courses because they necessarily aren’t scholarly. Those people are the ones that graduate without a clue as to how to practice law. But no one forced them to avoid practical skills courses.
There are other law schools that focus on the practical – Baylor for example. The average Baylor graduate is arguably better suited to head to the court house than the average UT grad.
On the other hand, when I was a summer associate at a top Texas firm, one of my classmates was in school at Yale. According to him (and I have done nothing to verify this), Yale doesn’t offer research and writing. He had no clue as to do even basic legal research. He did not get an offer, yet he went to a top 3 school.
What is great about UT Law is that its not Baylor, where you are almost required to focus on litigation, and its not Yale, where you likely have no practical skills after graduation. UT Law offers scholarly bs to those that want it and practical skills to those that want it. How you outline your legal education is your decision.
As to professors dragging their feet on grades, yes, I had that experience too. Its ridiculous that professors cannot grade exams (their only administrative task) on time.
29,
Furthermore, writing skills are way overrated anyway. I mean, my comments aren’t funny and rarely even make sense and I made partner here in SuperhugeGinormousLaw. Picture me rollin’ biaatches!
– Associate Emeritus
28,
That GPA will be difficult to overcome and get into a T14 school.
It is theoretically possible at some of them that look beyond the mere numbers if they think you are otherwise cool and you can step up with some additional skill, talent or experience that you can highlight. Do you have anything?
Having some business/consulting background and not being straight out of undergrad also could help a little, but not sure it will be enough.
I would give it a try if law is really something you are interested in, but do not get your hopes up too much.
Do not settle and go to a crap law school – there is no point in the current legal hiring environment.
Suck my SMU, bitches!
Locke Lord secure
60 has the correct response. It’s just hard to see that when you’re sitting in 1L classes learning about the law in 17th Century Feudal England or as the ALI wishes it to be. 1L can be frustrating.
OHHHHHHHHHH YEAAAAAHHHHHH
I drive all around the tri-state, and all I see are BMW’s (X3’s, X5’s, 323ix, 328), Lexuses, Mercedes of all types, even Audi’s, one after another. Who are the people driving these cars? I mean, they can’t all be bankers and doctors? If I’m a lawyer at an international, top 10 Big Law firm, surely, I should be able to afford one.
This is the problem with you legal types. Someone asks you for some advice and you could just ignore the person.. BUT NOOOO…. you have to tell them to go get herpes or to become blind and marry a fat woman. This is too rude. Also, I don’t have anything to lose by posting my question and just wanted one legitimate answer. Finally, I am sorry about the University of Houston thing… I just can’t be spending 300K plus(180K in lost wages) to go to a school where I have to be top 10% for a firm job. Again, any advice would be helpful(as long as it is relevant and not to tell me to go get HIV from a prison inmate.)
-28/53
52,
Please learn the your vs. you’re distinction.
Thanks,
Elie’s fat rolls
The comments to the original article on the daily texan’s website suggest how these clueless 1Ls in no way represent the consensus at UT law. However, the comments were subsequently removed by the worthless undergrad daily texan editors
68,
I think you mean 51.
UT3L with clerkship & job. Only a catastrophic institutional failure could have led to their admission to UT law, so perhaps they are right that something is wrong.
It’s a good thing you guys are getting your servers in order. What will these jackanapes do if they can’t pillory Elie on a thrice-daily basis?
So on one hand, you have law schools who are now adopting the Pass/Fail system in order to help the students, whereas on the other hand, Texas students are bitching about having too many As and easy exams. That does not sound right. Things really are awkward down under in Texas. Give those fools an F, they are begging for Fs on their transcript!
So on one hand, you have law schools who are now adopting the Pass/Fail system in order to help the students, whereas on the other hand, Texas students are bitching about having too many As and easy exams. That does not sound right. Things really are awkward down under in Texas. Give those fools an F, they are begging for Fs on their transcript!
This is a comment from the Daily Texas, by a 1L who knows one of the authors: “I find it incredible that a person who breathlessly spoke of Scalia’s “epistemological quest to find the law” because of an italicized ‘always’ and who was affectionately known as “bilateral monopoly” last semester co-authored this article. You, sir, are the very poster child for the self-aggrandizing pedantic behavior you so quickly accuse our professors of displaying. The next time you speak in class, look to see how many people are rolling their eyes, checking their email, or otherwise not paying attention. Maybe you’ll get a sense of what everyone thinks about this article.”
62,
Thanks for some legitimate input. I suppose without giving out too much personnel info, I am working in acturial consulting with 3 exams. I have very strong mathematical talent, I suppose? T14 is nice but not crucial. I would settle for anything in the top 30. I just want assurances that I can get a firm job being in the top 30% or like top 40%.
-28/53
28/53/76,
Your best bet is probably Northwestern.
However, common advice is to not predict you will be anywhere other than median in the class you enter. And you know why, based on your actuarial knowledge.
28/53/76
No where is going to give you assurances of a firm job in this economy. So if assurance is what you are looking for, stick with your current job because it would be a huge risk.
if these fucktards think that it’s bad now, just wait until they get a whiff of the bullshit that is biglaw …
28/53/76 –
Go fuck yourself.
79
28/53/67,
Nobody on this site can give you a definite answer about whether you will be admitted to a T14. With your numbers, my guess would be it would be a close call. My LSAT was slightly below yours, and my GPA was marginally higher than yours, and I got into two T14s and am now a 1L at one of them. I am having fun and doing well.
Yes, it would be stupid to spend the money on applications if you have no chance, but you do have a chance. If you really want to go for a law degree, don’t be dissuaded by the jerks who get their jollies by posting rude comments on ATL.
Best of luck to you.
cavalcade?
I’m a 1L who went to UT undergrad and has cried himself to sleep every night because I didn’t get into UT Law, and instead went to SMU. Its spring break, and me (and the rest of SMU’s 1L’s) are sitting in the library writing a MANDATORY 22 page appellate brief.
Just when I was about to start the pity party, I read this. Thank you UT 1L’s for making my day, week, (career?). Improved employment opportunities against my only real rival in the Lone Star State is a pretty dang good consolation prize to not having my patron shots on 6th street.
28: Stay where you are. Save your money. You could end up 300K in the hole, begging for a job in your old career field just to pay your debts. The problem is, once you have the J.D., no employer will hire you to do your old job. Then, you seem risky and unloyal to a legal employer.
82-
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cavalcade
Esp. (3)
-Enjoi
28,
Was the 2.1 in a difficult major, i.e. Math or a challenging engineering/science major? If so, and if others in your major had low GPAs, that will help some. But 2.1 is so far down the distro. curve, I really can’t answer your question. If you had any certificates/masters’ or classes that you had better grades in, that could help too.
Honestly, you’d be more likely to make it to a top 10 as a transfer, because I did know transfers with GPAs almost that low. (Well, I think 2.5 or so.)
83,
Actually pretty funny for a 1L but I have a few questions questions:
(1) When did your school start spring break? (It’s Tuesday).
(2) Why 22 pages?
Sorry about the dual questions questions, I’m commenting from my phone phone.
-87
the comments to the original article are spot on and are much more indicative of the ut student population’s feelings about the school.
-ut 3L (with a j-o-b)
Sorry about the really long post, but here are the original comments on the article that were mysteriously deleted by the Daily Texan.
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 16:22
Mateo, why don’t you spend more time trying to make SBA worth a damn instead of writing articles criticizing the school?
UT 3L
Thu Mar 4 2010 16:18
Dear 1Ls,
Get a clue. You can get practical experience if you want it. You can also sail through UT Law doing the minimum, and still get out alive with a 160K+ job.
UT Law is all about what you make of it.
Locke Lord Secure!
Sergei
Thu Mar 4 2010 15:41
There is nothing wrong with UT. If you have a 170 3.6+ and can get accepted to the school, then with little practice will you be able to draft a brief on the plight of uguandan refugees in the Lesser Antilles
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 15:39
Let’s not confuse UT Law’s decision to build flexibility into the curriculum with individual students’ failure to develop appropriate skill sets. As a 3L who will be working in a transactional practice group after graduation, I’m thankful UT Law didn’t require me to take a course in brief writing. In lieu of such a course, I was able to take an elective relevant to my post-graduation practice.
I’m also skeptical of your argument that UT offers grade-inflating electives in order to steer students away from legal writing courses. While it may not be true of the brief writing course, a number of the other advanced writing courses are offered on a pass/fail basis.
UT 3L Who Knows Better and Has a Job!
Thu Mar 4 2010 15:14
There should be a disclaimer with this article that the authors are all first year law students… meaning that they only have one semester under their belts. This article also grossly ignores the wonderful clinics that UT has. Once again, this is probably because these students are not even eligible yet to participate in clinics.
Legal Eagle
Thu Mar 4 2010 14:57
Note to UT Law Students: You are on your own! Take personal responsibility for your actions, stop blaming professors who randomly assign grades, and stop whining about the construction noise in the library. If the faculty and curriculum at UT Law do not meet your standards, teach yourself. Go to the courthouse, read and draft lawsuits, attend depositions, and witness trials. Supplement your academic experience with real-world activities outside of the classroom. You are in control of your destiny.
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 12:33
I hope that was not a UT student who cannot spell “blame”. Well written article. Employers are looking for new hires that can perform. Theory does not push this economy. In any downturn, businesses look at those not producing income to let go first and then, those who are paid to much for their performance next.
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 11:53
Let me guess, none of you could get jobs and are trying to blain somebody. Yes?
Anonymous
Sun Mar 7 2010 23:43
This article is not reflective of my experience AT ALL. In my clinic, I did a deposition and am now writing a brief for summary judgment. Its a real case in state court. If that’s not practical experience, I am not sure what is. Go do the Hutcheson moot court competition. You don’t have to be in brief writing to compete. Take brief writing next year. I loved my con law 2 class: free speech and religion. Rabban is the best. Its actually very relevant to my job this summer. Don’t bash your con law 2 class when you had PLENTY of other options. Some people might be interested in Race and Gender in the Constitution.
Anonymous
Sun Mar 7 2010 10:53
UT Law grads with good grades get good jobs. *Period.* They work at Baker Botts, Vinson & Elkins, Fulbright & Jaworski, and many end up at high profile New York firms. Others clerk or work for the government (e.g., DOJ). If you can’t get a job, you only have yourself to blame because you didn’t put in the work to get the grades. Quit blaming everyone else for your failures and take a deep, long look in the mirror.
Amicus
Fri Mar 5 2010 21:53
Good Article. From a law students point of view. It is tough to get a law job out of law school cause you get no practical experience.
Anonymous
Fri Mar 5 2010 19:31
As a former Texan reporter and editor and hopeful future UT law student, I’m appalled at your lack of balanced journalism… To mention one fundamental point, you don’t have a single source quoted to balance out the abundance of these critiques you posted. You don’t spell out what “national skills standards” encompass, yet you say you don’t meet them. You also woefully compare “dropping levels of applications” between UT law and competitor schools… but who are they? And what are these percentages in actual numbers?
If this article is any indication, you’re absolutely right about some UT law students being incompetent legal writers. But next time, please speak only for yourself.
Anonymous
Fri Mar 5 2010 19:25
As a former Texan reporter and editor and hopeful future UT law student, I’m appalled at your lack of balanced journalism. You don’t have a single source quoted to balance out the abundance of these critiques you posted. You don’t draw out your “statistics” on rankings into actual numbers, which might more accurately reflect the differing sizes of UT Law vs. other schools.
If this article is any indication, you’re absolutely right about some UT law students being incompetent legal writers – but next time, please speak only for yourself.
Anonymous
Fri Mar 5 2010 18:11
“The law school now risks a substantial drop in its US News & World Report rankings as applications to competitor schools have increased by as much as 52 percent this year. . .”
Sorry, but no Ivy League law school considers itself the “competitor” of any “peer” institution apparently desperate enough to post “part time legal assistant/nanny” positions on its student job board.
Anonymous
Fri Mar 5 2010 17:57
“The University of Texas School of Law was recently embarrassed in legal-industry news by a story claiming a law professor delayed releasing his class’s grades by two months — so long that employers had to tell a student they had filled all of their summer internship vacancies while he was waiting for this grade. ”
You didn’t get a job because of your personality. Grades had nothing to do with it.
Anonymous
Fri Mar 5 2010 17:45
Fail
Anonymous
Fri Mar 5 2010 12:48
The wonderful thing about UT Law is that there is so much flexibility in the curriculum that people can pursue virtually any career paths that they choose. Not all of these career paths require a “practical education,” although it probably is true that this is the most useful education for a job in this economy. However, many people choose to do transactional work, pursue academia, become consultants; the possibilities really are endless. Elite law schools, which UT strives to be, teach much more theoretical courses. They are in good company.
The caveat to this is that students are forced to police themselves and take curriculum that enhances the skill sets relevant to the career path they desire. Therefore it is your responsibility as a student to take advanced legal writing classes if you want to improve your writing skills. Could the writing program for 1Ls improve? Of course it could. However, this doesn’t require disparaging the education of the entire law school. The quality of classes here are, overall, superb.
Anonymous
Fri Mar 5 2010 12:44
Go to Baylor. If the authors feel that they are not getting enough hands on training then they can do something about it by taking a clinic, writing on a journal, taking writing seminars, or participating in moot court and mock trial. There are plenty of opportunities at the school. You can intern and clerk during the semester on top of all that. Surely the authors are signed up for the novice mock trial coming up, then (since you want to learn how to “litigate”)? I bet not. I bet they just like to whine and gripe and expect the answers to be handed to them. If you wanted to be coddled you came to the wrong school. The opportunities are there, you have to take them. If you want to do something about improving the law school then find more constructive ways to do it. Writing weak articles for the Daily Texan doesn’t do anything but get your classmates stirred up, and expose your inability to present thorough arguments.
FYI – if you want to learn how to litigate just read the discovery rules. The jury trial is on its way out.
Alum
Fri Mar 5 2010 12:12
I am not one to normally comment on these sorts of things, but this smells of students that are annoyed that they didn’t get their way. There is a complaint that not enough students can get into brief writing, and then the opposite, that students shouldn’t take brief writing because it will hurt their GPA. This argument completely ignores the mandatory curve for all classes (albeit above a certain size), and the fact that you can take brief writing as a 2L or 3L. In fact, I would argue that I would have been better served to take it in my last year when my other legal skills were more developed.
I hope employers look at this editorial and think about how much you would complain as a first year associate when you don’t get to write the brief for the appellate case or be first chair at trial or negotiate the big deal. Way to stand up for your sense of entitlement, I hope that serves you well throughout your legal career.
3L
Thu Mar 4 2010 22:51
Thanks for presenting the public with massive inaccuracies about the quality of Texas’ “flagship law school.” I went to UT because it provides more hands-on clinics, more journal opportunities, and a greater range of practical and theoretical courses than any comparably ranked school. The relatively low tuition also makes UT one of the best values in the country. I could not be happier with the quality of education I received.
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 22:42
If you believe that UT Law would benefit from a stronger legal writing curriculum I completely agree. There are infinitely more constructive ways to get that point across. This article smacks of entitlement.
You’re right, you can’t write.
Thu Mar 4 2010 22:41
this article is proof positive that the university of texas law school can’t teach people how to write
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 22:36
A combined 1.5 semesters of law school experience is enough to inform the rest of us on the needs of the University of Texas Law School? Why do the authors speak authoritatively about what “Texas deserves… from its flagship law school”? You barely know anything about the law school. You don’t know anything about the law. And now you admit that you didn’t even know much about the school you decided to attend?
Three students who apparently can’t be bothered to perform due diligence on a six figure investment now have buyers’ remorse… and this is interesting? If I want to know the holding in Palsgraf or Hadley v. Baxendale, I’ll solicit the authors. If I want to know how law school can be improved, I’ll ask lawyers. And if I want to read something worthwhile, I won’t bother with the Daily Texan.
Class of 96
Thu Mar 4 2010 21:13
Please feel free to transfer elsewhere. I’ll pay the application fees and help you pack.
Larry Sager
Thu Mar 4 2010 17:55
Dear 1Ls,
Head on back to the library and study. You might get a job that way. You will not get one by sitting in George’s and bitching and planning an ediotrial.
Sincerely,
Management
2L
Thu Mar 4 2010 17:03
DISCLAIMER: Authors have no idea what they’re talking about.
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 16:27
To add to the other comments above, it appears the authors of this article ignore the fact that a large percentage of UT Law graduates accept employment in positions that are transactional in nature or otherwise do not require brief writing. In any event, if students are seeking litigation experience, there are a number of clinics, mock trial competitions, or writing courses available to them. Furthermore, the theoretical nature of classes taught at UT usually carry an explicit (though often implicit) expectation that these high-achieving students will be able to learn black letter law for the bar or on their own. If these 1Ls are so disappointed with UT, they will likely have no trouble transferring to other schools in the state that have better writing courses and teach more black letter law. Harvard and Yale, notably, also focus their courses on theory, so UT is in fine company in that regard. I would venture to guess that these students would not trade these “shortcomings” at UT for other state law schools when push comes to shove, especially regarding post-graduate employment.
Anonymous
Thu Mar 4 2010 16:24
Here are my beefs with this opinion piece:
1) The facts are not complete contextually. They are inserted and expected to stand on their own without any explanation, and often the assertions are incomplete and vague
Example (a)
“In fact, only about half of first-year students surveyed reported being able to get into a brief-writing course. As a result, they will not be trained how to present arguments to a court — one of the most basic legal skills.”
Is this the percentage of 1Ls who WANTED to take brief writing and were unable to, or the percentage of 1Ls who did not take brief writing for any reason. If it’s the latter, this is statistic is very twisted. 1Ls get one elective in the spring semester. You bid for your elective. Not all 1Ls want to take brief-writing. I am a 1L and I didn’t even bid for any sections of brief writing.
Example (b)
“Last semester, a well-known lawyer wrote to law school Dean Lawrence Sager, charging that UT graduates are incompetent legal writers and that he would never hire a UT Law graduate again.”
Ok, so ONE attorney has the belief that UT Law grads are poor writers? While legal writing skills are mostly objectively assessed, there is a certain degree of subjectivity involved in looking at legal writing. This one lawyer is unhappy with the writing of UT Law grads (how many??). If UT Law grads are objectively bad writers across the board, than why do so many prominent firms and judges continue to hire our graduates?
Example (c)
I’m not going to put the quote from the article because it is long. However, the whole late grades thing on Above the Law was dumb. The person was complaining about not having their grades before grades were even DUE. It’s also not a claim that has been confirmed by other students. The student got all the way to the interview stage of hiring before being rejected. I have a feeling that this student was not hired for other reasons than ONE allegedly late grade. Perhaps their interview did not go well. I seriously doubt the student was told during the interview that they would not be hired because of a lack of grades.
Example (d)
“Edwards revealed that a well-known UT constitutional law professor confided in Edwards, saying he is ‘unwilling to redirect” his activities in ‘useful ways.’
Edwards charged that this ’so-called elite’ law school is primarily dedicated to work that serves ‘no social purpose at all.’”
What the hell does this even mean? What are you trying to prove with this quote from one guy’s opinion?
2) The article is just not very well written. It’s not very “lawyerly” to write an article with factual assertions that have all of the data stripped of them. You need to be clearer as to why this proves a point. I know its an editorial, but we learn in legal writing a rule that applies in ALL persuasive writing– it is important to address and attempt to partially rebut the weaknesses in your own argument in order to make that argument even stronger.
MOST importantly, what is the thesis of this editorial? Is it that UT Law doesn’t have a strong legal writing program, or is it that our professors are lazy and don’t grade stuff on time, or is it that our professors don’t do work that is important socially? Or is it really that you think UT Law just sucks overall? If that is your assertion, it’s pretty weakly supported.
3) This article is premature. All of the authors are 1Ls, as someone already pointed out. If you wanted to give your article more strength, consulting with 2Ls and 3Ls, and perhaps having co-authors from these levels would make this article a more impressive assessment of the state of UT Law’s writing programs.
51 was the funniest comment I’ve ever read on ATL.
Assuming s/he wasn’t being serious, of course.
I don’t know anything about the program at UT, but here’s a bit of a reality check from the POV of a T1 1L elsewhere:
(NB: IN GENERAL. REFERRING TO NEITHER MY SCHOOL, NOR YOURS, NOR THAT OTHER ONE.)
1. The price point of the education is determined by the level of governmental loan provided.
2. The university proper has very little control over the policies and standards of the law school given (1) the law school’s powerful alumni base and (2) the revenue that the law school brings in.
3. The alumni tend not to make interventions in the curriculum for fear of engendering the perceptions that are reflected in the article and comments, supra.
4. The teachers view themselves as academics, and therefore will never see the practitioner-oriented judgments and criticisms of their students as valid. But they consider their form of academia to be utterly sui generis, so they don’t pay much attention to the larger Republic of Letters either.
5. The industry, or at least BIGLAW™ will never admit that students can be adequately prepared to enter their exalted halls by something so freely available as academic study, and they profit from students having a large amount of debt, so change is never likely to come from that quarter.
In general, LS seems to be where knowledge meets power. There’s potentially a lot of corruption involved with the second part of that equation. When one person blows a whistle, it makes their team look bad, yep. But perhaps they were just the first ones.
- 1L in the Grandstand of Philosophical Self-Detachment
You’re all aware the letter probably came from some law student from some school in Houston (no, not UH), right?
The comments from the UT students defending the school only bolster the 1Ls’ argument.
Everyone knows that UT students can’t write – this is not news. All of the 3Ls bragging about clerkships only received them because the judges are alum. Get real.
Interesting, speaking of practicality, Texas Tech became the #1 advocacy program in the country this week. At least they are getting something practical with their education.
Interesting, speaking of practicality, Texas Tech became the #1 advocacy program in the country this week. At least they are getting something practical with their education.
First off, you got into UT-Law, the best law school in Texas, so stop your whining. (SMU and U of H also offer a great education, but SMU is super expensive and U of H is located in the ghetto)
Second, you should have known that going to UT-Law meant that your education would be theory based, rather than practical. Everyone who is from Texas and plans on going to law school in Texas is very well aware that Texas Tech and South Texas offer the most practical experience and casework. (nationally ranked advocacy programs, abundant real world experience, and Texas Tech has the HIGHEST bar passage rate of any school in Texas (most recent figures)).
Tech and South Texas may not be the best law schools in Texas, but they do produce practical lawyers who are more prepared to practice than UT law grads. Also, appellate brief writing as an elective? wtf? That, along with drafting trial briefs, MSJs, and memos is required at Tech Law.
But, I do appreciate the UT 1Ls pointing out how highly their grades are inflated and their ultimate lack of knowledge in the legal field. You just helped out every other Texas law student who does not attend UT.
I might’ve missed something, but I am having a difficult time understanding how this op-ed piece generating 5 minutes of fame on ATL is going to “help out every other Texas law student who does not attend UT”.
Texas Tech is, and always will be, a regional school (Lubbock) mired in the third tier of national law schools.
I’m happy with UT law. Most people I know are as well (although they wish the legal market were better). I think the 1L authors of the article aren’t knowledgeable about the subject they are writing about. They haven’t taken any of our clinics, writing classes, or other practice-centered classes like Mediation, etc. It’s too bad the Daily Texan didn’t fact-check the piece, b/c it gave a few sour grapesters a big soap box from which to spew their half-baked ideas.
Relax. UT Law is a pre-eminent law school (and will knock the imposter G-Town out of the T14 next year); the article from a bunch of douches will not adversely affect UT Law’s reputation.
The TX Legislature, on the other hand, is doing a fine job at battling a terrific institution.
UT Alum (Undergrad)
Yale Law School ‘11
I never went to UT law, but overall I hear it’s a great experience. Like virtually every other law school in the country, they offer clinics that really help you get hands-on experience. Further, if you wish to litigate, or even become a transactional attorney, you can take writing courses your 2L and 3L years to meet your individual needs. Other schools do this too but generally have mandatory writing courses for their first years, hoping to create a slither of competence just in case a 1L enters an office in their rising 2L summer. It’s also great to be just outside of the T14, and live in an amazing city like Austin, Tx (for those of you who’ve never visited, I hear it’s amazing). Keep Austin Weird!!!
This is exactly why I went to DUKE law.
It’s likely someone already mentioned this, but it is such obvious BS that I’m going to point it out anyway: electives are curved to a 3.3 at UT just like any other class, not a 3.8. 1Ls can get their own curve if they so choose. They then compete against each other on a 3.3 curve. The only way a class gets off the curve is if the whole class, 2Ls and 3Ls included, gets off. That happens about twice a year for non-seminars.
Have fun being unemployed kids. If you can’t bother to get even that basic fact straight, I’m not sure how you’re going to handle even a summer memo.
98, how heavy is that chip on your shoulder? I enjoyed your rationalization for attending South Texas or Tech. It’s always amusing to listen to those who couldn’t get into a better school attempting to make themselves feel better by bashing UT. (oooh, we have to stand up in class when we talk, we have more mandatory classes, our moot court team is really good, etc.)
But, regardless of how many more mandatory classes you had to take, you have to admit your employment options compare horrible. Top 1/3 at UT can land a job at BigTex/BigLaw (at least before the recession). To get a comparable job out of Tech or South Texas, you’ll need to be in the top 1% and that’s even if the firm will consider grads from your school. Do any of the big Texas firms even interview at those schools? My firm certainly doesn’t (stopped interviewing at Tech about 9 years ago; don’t think we ever considered South Texas).
Oops. “compare horribly”
87,
1. Spring Break is this whole week.
2. 22 pages was the page limit decided upon by the Moot Court Board. We actually caught a break this year b/c in years past the limit has been 30 pages to remain somewhat consistent with Fed. R. App. P. 28.1?
I agree with 83, this takes the sting off spending Spring Break in the library.
-not 83
That opinion piece was poorly written. Some of the sentences were unintelligible. In that sense, I suppose the criticisms expressed are well founded.
That opinion piece was poorly written. Some of the sentences were unintelligible. In that sense, I suppose the criticisms expressed are well founded.
That opinion piece was poorly written. Some of the sentences were unintelligible. In that sense, I suppose the criticisms expressed are well founded.
Mystal,
Pure genius:
“Meanwhile, something tells me that every SMU law student will be appending the Daily Texan article to their résumé.”
No matter how many grammar/editing/quoting/basic comprehension mistakes you make in the future, you’ll never be TTT to me.
As a Baylor Law 2L this makes me hate my own school a little less after we dropped double digits in the rankings this last year
112-it’s amazing how lower ranked schools change so much in quallity from year-to-year. U.S. News is very sophisticated at evaluating the inner-workings of a law school, and I imagine they’ll be even better at understanding the day-to-day operations of large law firms.
96-98
Texas Tech has a law school?
- UT 3L Secure
The letter is nowhere near as egregious as you make it out to be.
UT 3L with a US CoA clerkship and BigLaw job here.
I really just don’t understand how 1L’s–whether at Texas or any other school–can feel as though they are qualified to write an article like this. Keep in mind these 1L’s are barely halfway through their first year of law school. They’ve gone through ONE semester, have finished ONE set of exams, and have received exactly four grades in their entire law-school careers (three core classes and LRW). Twelve months ago, some of them were still waiting to hear whether they’d even been admitted to UT. They’ve barely got their training wheels off. What the hell do they know about law school?
As far as the substance of the article, is there effectively any real criticism of UT’s curriculum besides “UT should require brief writing”? The 1L curriculum at UT is entirely prescribed with the same core classes as every other law school: Torts, Crim Law, Con Law, etc. The ONLY freedom in the entire 1L schedule comes in the spring semester, when 1L’s get a single elective. I suppose one could argue that the elective hours should be used for an additional practical-skills course (be it Brief Writing or otherwise), but is one additional course really the difference between success and failure? UT has plenty of “practical” educational opportunities beginning 2L year–14 clinics, several internships, moot court, mock trial, etc. Maybe these 1L’s should have waited until they were at least eligible to participate in those practical extracurriculars before they went on this misguided tirade.
And if the criticism is that UT should restructure its entire educational methodology to be more like Baylor or the other “practical” schools in Texas, well, that just isn’t happening. UT is an elite law school; elite law schools have theoretical curricula. Period. Not a single school in the T14 has a predominately “practical” curriculum. Lesser-ranked law schools use such curricula because it’s the only way their students will ever get jobs. Top law schools can rely on employers’ knowing that their students are the best and brightest. UT’s no HYS, but it’s a top school. It has no business adopting the more “practical” model of the inferior in-state schools.
Thank you 116 “UT is an elite law school” you just made my day.
Ut ..wahahaha..
elite…hahahahaha
law school…ha..wait I can’t breath…hahahaha
One….haha..damn..more time..
Thank you 116 “UT is an elite law school” you just made my day.
Ut ..wahahaha..
elite…hahahahaha
law school…ha..wait I can’t breath…hahahaha
41-
Why would you think women like large balls? As for hairy nips- WAX. No Pain. No Gain. Epic Fail.
Okay, can any of you SMU/UH/Tech/South Texas students HONESTLY say that your school in ANY way offers a superior education than UT? I mean, I know that justifying failure and all that can be comforting, you can’t ACTUALLY believe that you are in ANY way better off, right? If you really don’t know the answer to that question, try answering this one first: If you had actually gotten into UT, would you have gone?
That’s what I thought. Now shut the fuck up and start working on your memo-writing skills. All the UT grads will be expecting your memos on their desks first thing–for the rest of your lives.
Okay, can any of you SMU/UH/Tech/South Texas students HONESTLY say that your school in ANY way offers a superior education than UT? I mean, I know that justifying failure and all that can be comforting, you can’t ACTUALLY believe that you are in ANY way better off, right? If you really don’t know the answer to that question, try answering this one first: If you had actually gotten into UT, would you have gone?
That’s what I thought. Now shut the fuck up and start working on your memo-writing skills. All the UT grads will be expecting your memos on their desks first thing–for the rest of your lives.
While the wisdom of bashing your own law school is certainly questionable, you also have to consider that if law students stayed perpetually silent about their school’s problems… the school, and it’s reputation/hiring prospects would suffer more in the long run.
A 3L’s response in the Daily Texan today:
“I take exception to the March 8 guest column, “Law Students Need a Practical Education,” because of the misleading way that the authors characterized their sources. First, the authors misrepresent Professor Harry Edwards’ article. According to the authors, “Edwards charged that this ‘so-called elite’ law school [UT] is primarily dedicated to work that serves ‘no social purpose at all.’” But Edwards’ article put it more broadly: “The law schools should have interdisciplinary scholars, but not scholars whose work serves no social purpose at all.” Notice that “schools” is plural. In fact, nowhere in Edwards’ article does he refer to UT specifically. Thus, Edwards does not, as the authors claim, state that UT is “insufficiently clinical” and suffering from a “lack of good training in legal writing.” Instead, Edwards comments that “[a]nother matter of serious concern in legal education is the lack of good training in legal writing,” and that “[he] agree[s] that law schools are insufficiently clinical.”
But even if Edwards’ statements were directed specifically at UT, the authors failed to mention an important fact: Edwards authored his article 18 years ago. So even if Edwards felt that UT law was insufficiently clinical around the time Bill Clinton first took office, that observation would have little bearing on what the school is today.
Second, the authors misrepresent the increase of applications to UT this year relative to other schools. To be sure, Cornell, one of UT’s peer schools, has experienced a 52-percent increase in applications. But other peer schools have underperformed UT’s 8-percent increase. For instance, the University of Chicago was up only 3.7 percent, Georgetown and Berkeley 4 percent, and UCLA 6 percent. These schools are ranked higher than or tied with UT by U.S. News. It seems that UT will improve in the rankings relative to these schools, all other things constant. The only schools in the top 20 that experienced increases greater than UT were Duke (22 percent), Michigan (20 to 25 percent) and Cornell. So what is to be made of the authors’ claim that UT now risks a “substantial drop in the rankings”? Nothing. Like the authors’ misleading citation to Edwards’ article, their claims regarding the rankings are baseless.
The lack of honesty and precision the authors display in this column embarrasses me.
Although UT does not mandate that students take a brief-writing course, all students take a yearlong course on basic legal research and writing. Either these students did not pay attention in that class, or they decided that making their argument was more important than faithfully and accurately citing their sources. In other words, the authors’ writing displays either dishonesty or laziness — neither of which can be blamed on the law school as an institution. It seems to me that, rather than “institutional indifference,” the true cause of the authors’ angst may be their own indifference. Perhaps if these students took some individual initiative toward enriching their legal education, they would have a fulfilling, enjoyable, intellectually stimulating and yes, practical experience at UT, just as I have.”
This article will have little or no effect. It’s not unusual for more elite schools to not have a practical curriculum. Texas firms know that UT students are the brightest in the state. If UT really did crank out incompetent lawyers, don’t you think firms would have figured this out by now and would have already stopped hiring them? Some stupid article by ignorant 1Ls is not going to change anything.
Welcome to reality, 117.