The reaction to three Texas 1Ls slamming the University of Texas Law School came in fast — so fast, in fact, that the Texas administration was on the defensive even before we published our post yesterday.
Over at Legal Writing Prof Blog, Professor Wayne Schiess, Director of the UT legal writing program, responded to the students’ criticism:
It is true that the University of Texas School of Law has a first-year legal-writing curriculum without brief writing. When the law school administration removed credits from the required course five years ago, brief writing was lost. Needless to say, the legal-writing faculty thought it was a mistake. So we’ve been teaching a brief-writing elective that only some 1Ls can get into. We’re optimistic that brief writing will return to the required first-year curriculum. Indeed, a proposal to do that comes before the faculty this week.
Wow, who knew that students and some faculty took the legal writing class so seriously? I thought that professional legal writing involved completely ignoring your legal writing course when a partner tells you to.
But legal writing isn’t the only problem the UT law faculty will try to address….
A tipster reports that the faculty of UT Law will be considering a number of options this week:
With respect the nature of the proposal before the University this week, the faculty will be voting on a proposed change to the legal writing curriculum that will outright double the number of credit hours devoted to legal writing. There will also be upper-division writing classes available to remedy anyone lacking writing courses. In short, every problem raised by the article will be addressed in full.
As Professor Schiess notes, a very important fact to point out about the 1L curriculum is that about one-half of the students are enrolled in the optional legal writing courses, which means they get the same level of training as anyone else. Any employers concerned about the writing skills of particular candidates should look at their transcripts to see whether they took elective writing courses.
It appears that the UT 1Ls were heard.
Not that all of the 1Ls at issue are happy about it. One of the purported authors of the Daily Texan article now claims to not have been an author. But the alleged non-author doesn’t want to go on the record. So we can’t tell you precisely how one goes about getting credit for supposedly not writing something.
But the Texas flap caused such a ruckus that a headhunter friend Facebook-messaged me:
Every UT grad I have just became harder to place, thanks bro.
Hey, if you simply must shoot the messenger, train your sights on the 1Ls who set fire to the school’s reputation in the Daily Texan.
The fallout from the Daily Texan article should be relatively self-contained. New U.S. News rankings are out soon enough and they’ll give UT law students something else to cheer (or cry) about real soon.
Law students need a practical education [Daily Texan]
A University of Texas Professor Responds to Criticism About the UT Writing Program [Legal Writing Prof Blog]
A Response from UT Law and a Clarification [Blackbook Legal]
Earlier: University of Texas Law Students Warn Employers to Stay Away from UT
firstly, i love people from Texas (not the school, although they’re fine too)
biggest balls out there
-1
Hey UT, tell me how my SMU tastes!
-ShaqSMU secure
“Every UT grad I have just became harder to place, thanks bro.”
What does that mean? Either typo by sender or Mystal (neither would surprise me).
Usnews will come out and ut will still not be a t14. What’s there to cheer about?
It means the headhunter’s ability to find jobs for UT grads has become more difficult. It’s ridiculous, but that’s what it means.
Hey number 4, it means how it reads. “Every UT grad I have just became harder to place, thanks bro”. Meaning every UT grad that he has just became harder to place…
You must go to UTTT, guess they don’t teach reading skills either.
Poor Schiess. I hope he doesn’t get any ish for this whole snafu. He is a great guy and he teaches a great upperlevel writing class.
This is EXACTLY why I went to Yale.
Sorry about your tiny pink curriculum, bro.
“Wow, who knew that students and some faculty took the legal writing class so seriously? I thought that professional legal writing involved completely ignoring your legal writing course when a partner tells you to.”
Elie, you cannot seriously be criticizing other people for ignoring what they learned in writing courses. Seriously.
This whole sorry mess makes me wonder whether the University of Texas School of Law is accredited by the American Bar Association and a member in good standing of the Association of American Law Schools.
This is why I work for Locke Lord Houston.
“Wow, who knew that students and some faculty took the legal writing class so seriously? I thought that professional legal writing involved completely ignoring your legal writing course when a partner tells you to.”
Elie, you cannot seriously be criticizing other people for ignoring what they learned in writing courses. Seriously.
Like any newer associate in Big Law actually writes briefs. Don’t need a writing course to do a stupid memo.
Damnit, where are your priorities. We DEMAND a follow up on the Mayer Brown mutiny, and perhaps a hardhitting interview with those idiot 3Ls. We all want to know what it feels like to sink 20 years of education with a couple broad strokes of bad judgment. We would also like some MB cofficual, or off the record, commentary on this. Finally, has the NYU OCS tried to deny that upchuck was following her advice?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I want to see a Bluebooking elective added because that’s the kind of knowledge that’s so essential in practice.
I want to see a Bluebooking elective added because that’s the kind of knowledge that’s so essential in practice.
11 – excellent conception, weak delivery. Elie wasn’t criticizing.
hey bro,
yo dog every one of dem law students i be around can’t get no job up in here. whats the delio? fo real.
- Professional Headhunter
11 – excellent conception, weak delivery. Elie wasn’t criticizing.
What would be truly useful would be a class on drafting documents. That will never get taught though, because law school professors do not have enough experience in practicing law to teach a drafting class.
despite all the controversy, we are still the number one law school in texas, and one of the top 5 universities in the nation.
I second #16. More on the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern career suicides. That’s the only decent story ATL has covered in months.
despite all the controversy, we are still the number one law school in texas, and one of the top 5 universities in the nation.
Why do black people talk in theaters and carry meat thermometers?
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local-beat/Moviegoer-Tells-Woman-to-Stop-Talking-On-Cell-Phone-Gets-Stabbed-in-the-Neck-87144462.html
despite all the controversy, we are still the number one law school in texas, and one of the top 5 universities in the nation.
despite all the controversy, we are still the number one law school in texas, and one of the top 5 universities in the nation.
Re: Rosencrantz & Guildenstern
Dear Elie,
I don’t wanna hear about no motherfuckin’ ifs. All I wanna hear from your ass is, You ain’t got no problem, Readers. I’m on the motherfucker. Go back in there, chill them lawyers out and wait for the calvalry which should be coming directly.
23/25, you have a typo. That’s “one of the top 5 football universities in the nation.”
The law school is making it quite clear that, if you’re not T14, you’re TTT.
LOL @ 25.
Top five universities in the country???
I don’t think it’s even the number one university in Texas.
I hear UTTT is offering scholarships for 3500 sq ft wives who want to go to law school.
Rice Law School is better.
I’m sorry, I fail to believe that anyone’s hiring decisions are colored by this “article” in the least bit. Every legal employer knows what law school REALLY is (i.e., a f*ing joke). No employer actually thinks that some law schools prepare students better than others. It’s about appearances and prestige, and using the rank of the school (and a student’s grades) as a proxy for intelligence and work ethic. As long as UT is relatively highly-ranked, its grads will place relatively well. That’s really all it comes down to.
35,
I’m saying the law school Rice currently has (none) is better.
- 33.
UT has always offered a number of brief and other writing classes in addition to the mandatory 1L writing class (and the 1L brief writing that about half the students get to take). They also require a research and writing seminar. There are plenty of writing classes to take as a 2L and 3L, i.e. before you graduate.
I think these 1Ls are just upset they didn’t get what they wanted. I hope employers hold their lack of knowledge about class offerings against them personally, rather than the UT grads that took classes in writing throughout their 3 years. I cannot think why any law firm would want to hire the authors, regardless of their law school performance.
ESS EM YEW!
ESS EM YEW!
ESS EM YEW!
If only students at UT took their legal writing as seriously as their civil procedure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmYxHdhr_Oo
ATL should sponsor a cage match, pitting the UT 1Ls against the NYU 3Ls in fight to the career death.
Schiess is awesome. He sang a song in the tune of an Alanis Morrisette song to our class
“Wow, who knew that students and some faculty took the legal writing class so seriously? I thought that professional legal writing involved completely ignoring your legal writing course when a partner tells you to. ”
Is that your excuse for your poor writing here?
3/38: Don’t pretend for a second that you CHOSE SMU. We all know better.
despite all the controversy, we are still the number one law school in texas, and one of the top 5 universities in the nation.
despite all the controversy, we are still the number one law school in texas, and one of the top 5 universities in the nation.
hook ‘em
UT is in Texas.
By definition nobody who isn’t a hick wants to be there.
23/25/27/28/44/45
If you close your eyes and keep posting it, it might come true.
Mom
Saying that UT is the best law school in Texas is like saying herpes is the best STD to get. Yes, it might be better than the other school in Texas, but all the other options are bad.
I’m not surprised to hear UT GPAs are inflated. This is anecdotal — but I’m aware of UT students with high gpas at my firm who were not extended offers because their work was not up to par.
48 FTW
41 – zomg!!! R u 4 reelz! A law professor taking some outdated pop culture icon and turns it into a legal themed song/poem/other that he famously performs each year after year after year for each new crop of 1L or 2L morons, showing them all why he/she is such a legend at the school? Every school has one or two of these guys. Barbri has a few also. “Wow, she used an episode of friends to teach us property, to the tune of “smellycat.”. “He does this amazing rendition of REMs greatest hits, but with the words changed to scotus cases.”. “He does an amazing mc hammer impression where he…” Etc etc etc. THIS DOOD IS NOT COOL. No lawyers are cool.
Perfect opportunity for Rice Law School to emerge
Doubling the LRW credits? Oh, I’m sure the 0Ls who (stupidly or not) judge schools on whether LRW is P/F vs. graded will *love* that.
The only change UT’s LRW program needs to be actually useful for practicing law is to figure out what a little thing called the Bluebook is. And since Schiess likely beats off to his ALWD every night, I don’t see that happening as long as he’s running the program.
“we can’t tell you precisely how one goes about getting credit for supposedly not writing something.”
Be in a Biglaw firm.
This is not really shocking, most firms in Texas already know this. Partners know that they will get better quality work from Baylor, SMU, UH, and even Texas Tech grads; but since UT is the “best law school in Texas,” firms still have to hire a couple to maintain their prestige and rep among clients and other firms.
Last I heard, students on UT law review don’t even get credit hours for being on law review. The school isn’t concerned about legal writing. What is embarassing is when a law grad from an out-of-state law school knows how to properly cite Texas cases and use the Green Book (which is published by the UT Law Review), and the average UT Law grad doesn’t even know there are different citation rules to watch out for.
Dear 1L,
Kudos on having the guts to throw your school under the bus in order to take a stand on not having enough mandatory classes. Because we suspect you might do something similar at our firm, we have decided to extend an offer to another candidate. May we suggest a career in public interest?
Sincerely,
BigLaw
This would never happen in . . . hm.
Excellent response to the original article from the Daily Texan.
These kids are idiots. THey should take this opportunity to apply for a joint degree at the LBJ of B-school because they will never be hired as lawyers.
I am a 3L at the law school, and I take exception with this column on several grounds.
First, the authors, I have been told, are first years, but for some reason they are of the opinion that they need to be prepared to waltz into court tomorrow and argue a motion. The fact of the matter is, UT offers a host of clinical and “practical” courses that are open to second and third year students. A little patience may resolve some of the authors’ concerns.
Second, the brief-writing class is not the only way to learn persuasive writing. There are also advanced writing courses from which the authors could learn how to write a brief. I too had trouble getting into the official brief-writing class; however, instead of writing an op-ed decrying the lax “institutional standards” at the law school, I took a minute to read about other course offerings. I ended up taking an advanced writing class for litigation taught by Professor Bridges. Not only did I learn how to write a brief, but I also learned how to write discovery requests and other important documents that an attorney might produce in litigation. I had no problem getting into the class, and it was pass/fail, so grade inflation was not a problem.
Third, I do not agree that a brief-writing course should be a requirement for all students. Students who intend to do transactional work have no use for learning how to write a brief. As I indicated above, there are many courses and activities that litigation-minded students can engage in to gain brief-writing and other experience. Why mandate a school-wide policy that won’t benefit a significant segment of the student body?
Finally, I take exception to the tone of this op-ed and the misleading way that it characterizes some of its sources. For instance, the authors allege that Professor Edwards specifically criticized the UT law school. He does nothing of the sort. His comments are directed at legal academia in general. Allow me to present an example. The op-ed above contains the following statement: “Edwards charged that this ’so-called elite’ law school is primarily dedicated to work that serves ‘no social purpose at all.’” But Edwards actual article put it more broadly: “The law schools should have interdisciplinary scholars, but not scholars whose work serves no social purpose at all.” Notice that “school” is plural. In fact, nowhere in Edwards article does he refer to our law school specifically. Thus, Edwards does not, as this op-ed claims, state that UT law is “insufficiently clinical” and suffering from a “lack of good training in legal writing.” Instead, Edwards comments that “[a]nother matter of serious concern in legal education is the lack of good training in legal writing,” and that “[he] agree[s] that law schools are insufficiently clinical.” But even if his criticisms were directed specifically at UT, the authors’ of this op-ed have failed to mention an important fact: Edwards authored his article 18 years ago. So even if Edwards felt that UT law was insufficiently clinical around the time Bill Clinton first took office, that observation would have little bearing on what the school is today. Likewise, the comments made by the eminent Professor Charles Allen Wright are similarly dated. (Professor Wright passed away a decade ago, so unless the authors are gifted in ways I cannot imagine, Wright’s comments are at least a decade old.)
To be quite frank, the lack of honesty and precision with which the authors of this op-ed cite these sources embarrasses me. Although UT law does not currently mandate that students take a brief writing course, all students take a year-long course on basic legal research and writing. Either these students did not pay attention in that class, or they decided that making their argument was more important than faithfully and accurately citing their sources. In other words, the authors’ writing displays either dishonesty or laziness–neither of which can be blamed on the law school as an institution. It seems to me that, rather than “institutional indifference,” the true cause of the authors’ angst may be their own indifference. Perhaps if these students took some initiative of their own towards enriching their legal education, they would have a fulfilling, enjoyable, intellectually stimulating, and yes, practical experience at UT, just as I have.
Sources:
Harry T. Edwards, The Growing Disjunction Between Legal Education and the Legal Profession, 91 Mich. L. Rev. 34 (1992).
This is exactly why I brew my own beer.
Tech 56? Seriously? Your commentary is old news. UT kids say the same thing about Yale and Harvard. Really, you get stuck going to Baylor or Tech b/c you aren’t smart enough to get into UT. Bragging about how well you can creac or implement some rote TrailMasters routine is never going to erase your 2.9 GPA at Texas A&M.
Tech 56? Seriously? Your commentary is old news. UT kids say the same thing about Yale and Harvard. Really, you get stuck going to SMU or Tech b/c you aren’t smart enough to get into UT. Bragging about how well you can creac or implement some rote TrialMasters routine is never going to erase your 156 and your 2.9 at Texas A&M.
Good point, 56. That’s why if you check attorney bios at most BigTex firms, they are littered with grads from SMU, Baylor, etc., while only having a “couple” UT grads to pad the prestige….
56, I go to a T14 and we don’t get course credit for LR. As far as I know, no other T14 school gives such credit (though maybe I’m wrong). Pretty sure that’s unique to your Baylor or Texas Tech Law Review. Gotta get something for all that work since it’s not helping you get a job.
I assume that you are being sarcastic, 63? I would guess that no vault 100 firm has more Tech or Baylor grads than UT grads.
I just want to comment on some of the anti-Texas elitism taking place. I’m a native New Yorker and 2L at UT Law and just want to say that the idea that UT Law isn’t deserving of its T15 status is exactly the kind of contentious bullshit that gives the northeast its high douchiness quotient.
I am extremely appreciative of UT Law and could not be more satisfied with the quality of the overall education, career placement services, and academia. I had no interest in staying in Texas but also had no trouble whatsoever finding placement in NY Biglaw. The Texas Law Review is higher ranked than the law school, for good reason, particularly given how often its cited and how hard its students work.
Nefound Longhorn for life. Hook ‘em.
This is EXACTLY why I purchase copious amounts of porn.
I have just forgiven tiger woods
Non-native Texan here, but I went down to UT for law and felt it was just fine in all academic respects (and much better in social and environment than almost any other law school). Let’s call this what it is: a couple over-zealous 1Ls who ignorantly wrote and published a piece without understanding or thinking through the actual consequences of their actions.
That being said, I sincerely doubt that I was hired because of my writing skills or lack thereof. I took brief writing as a 1L elective, despite my (now realized) goal of working as a transactional attorney. I at one point knew bluebook and greenbook, but don’t have a need for either these days.
UT doesn’t teach you how to be a courtroom attorney upon graduation. Get over it, most ‘elite’/good/national law schools don’t. If you want to go hang a shingle in Texas or work at a small firm (plaintiffs work, amber lamps chaser, etc.) then definitely go to or hire grads from Baylor, Tech, etc. and not Texas.
Best comment is #48! Nice one.
I think this is exactly why I have eczema.
25 – UT undergrad barely cracks the top 50
UT MBA program is below the Top 10 ~ 18th
UT LAW is nowhere near T5 status
Maybe its the Petroleum Engineering program that’s top 5 because their are only about 8 left in the country.
LSU tries to claim that title as well.
Don’t mess with Texas haha
This is not really shocking, most firms in Texas already know this. Partners know that they will get better quality work from Baylor, SMU, UH, and even Texas Tech grads; but since UT is the “best law school in Texas,” firms still have to hire a couple to maintain their prestige and rep among clients and other firms.
Last I heard, students on UT law review don't even get credit hours for being on law review. The school isn't concerned about legal writing. What is embarassing is when a law grad from an out-of-state law school knows how to properly cite Texas cases and use the Green Book (which is published by the UT Law Review), and the average UT Law grad doesn't even know there are different citation rules to watch out for.
1) I'm a 1L and we use Bluebook, and the Green Book (for Texas cases) in LRLW. If you want to become a Bluebook expert, join a journal. There are plenty of opportunities to do this, even for the more lackluster students, and as soon as FIRST SEMESTER of 1L year.
2) Hahah, yeah, Baylor, SMU, and Tech are so much better that they always offer even the lower-end UT-caliber students full rides. This is because they know that UT has much more to offer academically and career-wise. And Tech, really? If you actually knew what you were talking about, anyway, you would have thrown in U of H, because it's better than all three (but not better than UT).