'The Outsider': An Interview With Anthony Franze

Looking for some great weekend reading? Look no further.

The Outsider by Anthony FranzePlease welcome lawyer and author Anthony Franze back to our pages. As you may recall from my interview with him last year, Franze is an appellate litigator at Arnold & Porter Kaye Scholer and the author of several critically acclaimed thrillers set at the U.S. Supreme Court.

His latest novel, The Outsider, might be his best work yet. In my blurb for the book, I describe it as “an adrenaline-fueled thriller that simultaneously illuminates Supreme Court history, precedent, and procedure. It’s a must-read for lawyers and law students — and anyone who savors getting lost in a great book.”

To whet your appetite for The Outsider, here’s my (lightly edited and condensed) interview with Anthony Franze.

DL: Congratulations on the publication of The Outsider! You described it briefly in our last conversation, but if you wouldn’t mind, please refresh our recollection of what it’s about.

AF: Thanks for having me back, David! The Outsider is about a Supreme Court law clerk, but one unlike SCOTUS has ever seen. Grayson Hernandez grew up in a rough part of D.C., and worked his way through a low-ranked law school only to graduate with massive student loans and no law job. The only work he can find is as a messenger, and it happens to be at the Supreme Court. One night after a long shift, he stumbles upon a violent mugging and rescues the victim, not realizing until later that it’s the Chief Justice of the United States. The Chief takes an interest in Gray, and soon he’s the newest—and unlikeliest—law clerk at the Supreme Court.

Gray soon finds himself torn between his old life and new. He grew up bussing tables at his family’s restaurant, and his childhood best friend has become a local crime lord. Yet Gray’s now debating the biggest legal questions of the day with his pedigreed co-clerks, and hobnobbing with Justices of the highest court in the land.

DL: But the story is also a murder-mystery?

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Indeed. Just as Gray begins to adapt to his new life, the FBI approaches him with unsettling news. The Feds thinks there’s a serial killer connected to the Supreme Court. Gray is the only person who didn’t work at One First Street at the time of the first murder; he’s an outsider who they can trust to report any suspicious goings-on inside the building. Ultimately, to help find the killer obsessed with the high court will require not only Gray’s understanding of Supreme Court precedent and history, but, as it turns out, help from old friends he’d left behind.

Anthony Franze

Anthony Franze

DL: Your last book, The Advocate’s Daughter, starred Sean Serrat, a Supreme Court lawyer at his professional peak. As you note, Grayson Hernandez is a very different protagonist. What led you to go in this rather different direction?

I wanted to challenge myself. Sean Serrat was smarter and more accomplished than I am, but we still share many characteristics—both lawyers in Supreme Court practices at large D.C. firms, married with three kids, living in the same neighborhood. So I thought it would be fun to write about someone younger who took a different path. Also, I liked the idea of placing someone who didn’t have the traditional clerk background in that privileged and exclusive world.

DL: So Gray is not your typical SCOTUS clerk — as reflected in your title, The Outsider. This calls to mind S.E. Hinton’s classic coming-of-age novel, The Outsiders, and Hinton’s book then makes an appearance in your own. Can you tell us about the significance of Hinton’s work for your novel?

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AF: I love The Outsiders, a classic written when Hinton was just a teenager, and I heard that counselors working with troubled youth have used it to get kids talking about their problems and family dysfunction. In my novel, Gray and his childhood best friend, Arturo, were arrested as teenagers for joyriding, and a sympathetic judge put them in a diversion program where they attended group therapy. There, they were forced to read The Outsiders and identify which of Hinton’s characters they related to the most. Arturo refused to participate in the group session, but he told Gray that he saw himself in Johnny Cade, the greaser neglected and abused by his parents. Even as they drifted apart—Gray on the college track, Arturo on the prison track—they remained bound together by that book. I try not to be too heavy-handed with it, but I wanted to pay homage to a work that meant a lot to me as a kid.

DL: The Outsiders was, of course, turned into a critically acclaimed film featuring a gaggle of rising stars, including Tom Cruise, Matt Dillon, Rob Lowe, Ralph Macchio, Patrick Swayze, and Diane Lane. The Outsider, which is such a great page-turner, struck me as ripe for screen adaptation as well. Have you explored turning this book, or any of your prior books, into a work for film or television? If so, any thoughts on who could play your Grayson Hernandez? 

AF: My publisher, Macmillan, has a film, television, and multi-media division that has worked to get The Advocate’s Daughter to the screen, so I remain hopeful one or more of my books will someday be adapted.

As for casting, I try not to think about it since, when I’m writing, I don’t want my characters to morph into a particular actor or character I’ve seen in a film or on TV. But when pressed on who I’d choose to play my main characters, I always say George Clooney—because he looks so much like me. (Kidding!)

DL: When we last chatted, you mentioned that writing a book a year is fairly standard for the thriller genre. So are you already on to your next project — and if so, can you share details with us?

AF: I’m working on a domestic thriller about a prominent Washingtonian who’s accused of killing not one, but two, of his wives. I’ve learned the hard way—after having titles and storylines change—not to talk too much about works in progress. Rest assured, I’ll be pecking away on my computer late at night and bumping into people on the subway as I edit until the next one hits the bookstores.

DL: It sounds like a fantastic read; we await it eagerly. Congratulations once again on The Outsider, and thanks for taking the time to chat!

(Disclosure: I received a review copy of The Outsider.)

The Outsider [Amazon (affiliate link)]
The Advocate’s Daughter [Amazon (affiliate link)]

Earlier: ‘The Advocate’s Daughter’: An Interview With Anthony Franze
Standard Of Review: ‘The Advocate’s Daughter’ Is A Very Timely Supreme Court Novel


DBL square headshotDavid Lat is the founder and managing editor of Above the Law and the author of Supreme Ambitions: A Novel. He previously worked as a federal prosecutor in Newark, New Jersey; a litigation associate at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz; and a law clerk to Judge Diarmuid F. O’Scannlain of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. You can connect with David on Twitter (@DavidLat), LinkedIn, and Facebook, and you can reach him by email at dlat@abovethelaw.com.