What exactly is the drawback from hiring a law clerk as opposed to someone straight out from law school?

I guess I'm not getting the "plight."

Philly info would be SUPER appreciated as I'm going into a clerkship in the ED Pa. this summer.

I am curious as to this topic as well. In particular Im interested if Big Firms are hiring Bankruptcy Clerks.

The ones that will be looking for jobs this time next year.

I think the market for bankr. clerks is very good.

9:31, thanks for the comment. Can you give more details? Cities and firms that are taking on more b'ruptcy work? Or are you just speculating from the daily news?

I clerk in EDNY and most people I know have offers from at least one firm in NYC, often more than one. I have heard of some big firms not hiring clerks this year, though.

Hey does anyone out there have inside info on negotiating your salary coming into a clerkship? I am graduating in May, so technically, I should just be a JSP 11 step 1. But I have an MA, did 5 years in the work world B4 law sch., was an Exec. Bd. member on law review, served on the Moot Court board, took a year-long public service clinic, etc. Do any of these things count toward salary bumps? Or does the judiciary not really give a cr*p about any of my relevant (or irrelevant) experience?

11:58, I don't think negotiation is really possible. Salary is determined by a pretty inflexible seniority system-- sounds like you're familiar with that. I don't think the courts have any discretion to depart from that; I know my judge tried very hard a few years ago to get an increase for a clerk who, because she had worked for a couple of years at a very low-paying public interest job, came into the clerkship at a ridiculously low rate for her experience, but there wasn't anything that could be done about it.

11:58, I don't think negotiation is really possible. Salary is determined by a pretty inflexible seniority system-- sounds like you're familiar with that. I don't think the courts have any discretion to depart from that; I know my judge tried very hard a few years ago to get an increase for a clerk who, because she had worked for a couple of years at a very low-paying public interest job, came into the clerkship at a ridiculously low rate for her experience, but there wasn't anything that could be done about it.

Applied w/ d.ct. and cir.ct. clerkships. Found L.A. and San Diego markets to be pretty dead throughout V50. Landed in S.F./S.V. though (with much less effort).

Congratulations 12:41! It's good to hear that there is some hiring being done in the SF/SV area.

This site claims that you can negotiate step levels using journal experience, etc. This contradicts 12:14. Anyone know who is right, or does it depend what fed court employs you?

http://www.soyouwanttobealawclerk.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=61

I could be wrong, but if so, I wish I'd known about it before clerking.

--12:14

11:58 -- You can negotiate, but you are limited in what experience you can count. Bar admissions, time studying for the bar, work during law school, and prior practice as an attorney before clerking can give you a bump if they add up to more than a year or two years experience total. Don't expect a bump for irrelevant nonlegal degrees or prior nonlegal work experience. The way to negotiate is to have your judge agree to hire you as a full-time clerk for more than 1 year -- i.e. 1 year and a day. That puts you in another category of employee who is elegible for full governmental benefits. Then go from there and provide evidence of your prior income. There is a salary matching program that if you qualify for can be huge, but it only applies if you are going to work for longer than one year and if you are joining the government from a higher paying private sector job. Good luck.

I wonder if the source of the apparent disagreement is some confusion about what counts as "negotiation." Yes, clerks' salaries are certainly influenced by prior work experience, but my understanding of that is that the calculation of the pay rate is purely mechanical and you can't haggle your way into a higher rate-- though you obviously can submit evidence that you've been engaged in the substantive practice of law for, say, two years prior to clerking, which would put you at a higher rate than someone coming straight from law school.

2:45, the salary matching option does apply to clerks that are hired for only one year, or at least it used to, because I benefited from it when I started my current clerkship even though I was hired for only a year. I understand that the rules were changed a bit last fall, though, so perhaps it's different now.

--12:14

OK all you soon-to-be clerks who are hijacking this clerkship recruiting thread (j/k), please note that a number of the above comments are incorrect/outdated. The new rules regarding clerkship salaries are as follows:

The table below shows the number of years of legal work experience required to qualify for appointment as a law clerk at the applicable Judiciary Salary Plan (JSP) grade levels. Please note that appointment to JSP-12 or above requires that the candidate be a member of the bar of a state, territory, or federal court of general jurisdiction.

JSP Years of Legal Experience Bar Mem. Required
11 0 No
12 1 Yes
13 2 Yes
14** 3 Yes

** Two years of federal chambers law clerk, staff attorney, pro se law clerk, bankruptcy appellate panel law clerk, or death penalty law clerk experience is required in order to be appointed at or promoted to JSP-14. Note: no judge may increase to more than one the number of chambers law clerks at JSP-14 or above.

Legal work experience is progressively responsible experience in the practice of law, in legal research, legal administration, or equivalent experience received after graduation from law school. Major or substantial legal activities while on military duty may be credited, on a month-for-month basis whether before or after graduation, but not to exceed one year if before graduation from law school.

Salary matching for law clerks no longer applies (unless you obtained a written salary matching promise from your judge prior to September 18, 2007)

Pay tables can be found here http://www.uscourts.gov/Human_Resources/Judicial_Salary_Plan_Locality_Rate_Pay_Tables_2008.html

You can also run a search on this board: http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs.tcl?topic=Greedy%20Clerks
where this matter has been discussed ad nauseum.

Now, let's get back to discussing firms that are hiring law clerks.

DC has been slow, at least for me (COA clerk). One interview, no offer. Couple of other firms haven't responded to applications. I should probably take the offer from 2L summer before it gets pulled

Haven't noticed any slowdown in NYC: from top tier biglaw to small boutiques, all seemed to be giving interviews and offers. Most clerks I know (from top tier law schools anyway) haven't had trouble getting multiple interviews and offers in NYC. Not everyone got their top choice of firms, but not sure that necessarily has to do with market conditions though.

I'm focusing on a couple of secondary markets. I have sent five resumes. Three firms have interviewed me. One of those firm extended an offer. The other two candidly stated that they're interested, but they haven't decided whether they will hire any clerks this year. Additionally, one firm has yet to schedule an interview, but a friend-associate tells me they are going to set up an interview soon.

I get the vibe that firms are being unusually cautious about hiring clerks this year. For now, that simply means that they're taking longer than usual to make decisions. But between now and summer's end, it might mean more rejections than we'd see in a typical year.

Dechert, Morgan Lewis in Philly? Any news from clerks seeking spots in the City of Bruth'ly Love?

I'm clerking next year. When did this year's clerks start looking for jobs? End of January?

Most of the top firms will interview year round, because they understand that judges may prefer their clerks to wait.

But I think it's easiest to land an interview in January or February. By late March, many firms will have already seen several other judicial clerk candidates, so the competition increases. That said, though, several of the clerks I've been working with have received interviews or offers in the last couple of weeks.

In terms of which markets are hot or cold, I agree with the folks who have said New York and the Bay Area are still good markets for clerks (although a couple of the firms that gave offers on the spot in February have tightened up a bit this month as they've filled out their fall classes). If you have a tough time finding work in a particular city, try targeting those markets as a safety measure.

Feel free to contact me if you want a hand. (For some reason, the new site design doesn't actually link to my profile page yet, but if you Google my name, I'm pretty easy to find.)

Dechert and Morgan Lewis have given out offers. Friends of mine (EDPA clerks or former EDPA clerks) have gotten/accepted offers from both firms.

Thanks 9:44. If any of your ED Pa pals have more specific Philly info (how hard to get interviews, any direct recruiting, etc.), it would be very, very welcome here. Send 'em over.

did not have any problem getting a biglaw spot in philly after edpa clerkship this year.

DC seems very difficult right now. I am a district court clerk, have gotten some interviews, but no offers (and still no word from my 2L summer firm!!!) Does anyone know of firms that are affirmatively hiring clerks right now? Also, a partner at a NY-based firm told me that a lot of firms in NY are in firm-wide hiring freezes right now across the board, which is alarming. What about govt? The deadlines have passed for DOJ Honors and the US Attny's office in DC, but are there any other govt options for post-clerkship employment that anyone knows about?

11:14-

I am currently doing a district court clerkship and at the start of my clerkship I wondered the same thing. I sought out advice and received conflicting info about when was the best time to start looking-some said start early, some said wait until January-February. I started early (October) and landed a NYC V15 job after just a few weeks.

This may not be typical, but it is possible.

Any news on which NYC firms are in firm-wide freezes? That's very interesting.

If JT can be real for a minute here:

Apply early. If you don't hear anything, they're sitting on your resume. Otherwise, you'll get the call or the rejection letter (much nicer than the ones you're used to from school, since they don't want to insult your judge). Your "second wave" should be in the spring if such a thing is necessary.

The cardinal rule with any legal job application period is that earlier is better then later. That's what I've always done, and it has always worked for me. Your mileage may vary, or you might be a cocksucker from Yale and therefore can show up at an interview ass-naked and still get an offer.

Don't be afraid to follow-up via e-mail either.

From what I've heard, not what I've experienced, most markets except NYC and Northern Cali. are soft. Firms are scared; bad times a comin'. They don't want to overinvest in someone who they simply fear they can't afford. Spread your net wide and be patient, it will come, even if - godforbid - you have to take less than a 50k bonus.

COA clerk looking in Chicago. A couple of interviews but no offers yet. A few responses from firms that aren't looking to hire right now. Anyone else have Chicago news?

Not to speak heresy, but is it possible that driving up the clerkship bonus amounts is actually resulting in firms being less inclined to hire clerks, as they are now more expensive? Just a thought . . .

I'm sure it makes a difference at the margin. If firms are rational in their hiring decisions, they weigh the costs and benefits of brining on a new person. One cost is the bonus. Another is the (recently increased) salary.

Does anyone have any experience with some of the less prestigious district courts? The hiring experiences of SDNY clerks doesn't reflect what all of us plebs are set to endure

Make sure you are applying to firms that have traditionally strong litigation practices and that are doing well financially. In this market, firms that are particularly corporate heavy are being much more cautious about clerk-hiring even for their litigation groups, whereas firms that have strong (and somewhat counter-cyclical) litigation practices will always be looking for talent. For example, in the Bay Area, I expect places like Quinn, Gibson, Heller, Howard Rice, Keker, etc. are much more likely to be actively recruiting clerks than, say, Wilson, Latham, Pillsbury, Davis Polk, etc. I could be wrong about any of those particular examples, but they are just meant to illustrate the likely trend.

Interesting point, 12:08. Anyone have any experience with interviews with boutique firms this year? Are the litigation boutiques still active? Zuckerman in DC? Hangley Aronchick in Philly?

12:08 PM is right, corporate-heavy firms (in NYC) are being more cautious, even if you are looking to go into litigation. I am a strong applicant (top tier law school, good grades, appellate clerkship) and was told by both Debevoise and Latham that they weren't hiring.

12:03, I'm a d.ct. clerk in a non-SDNY district, and I started looking for a job in Dec., interviewed in Dec./Jan., and got a job in Jan. I knew I wanted to go to a smaller market, however, which was why I decided to start looking earlier rather than later. Even in Dec. the market I interviewed in was a bit tight, as quite a few firms had filled their hiring needs through fall interviewing.

DC has been really tough for me too. top 5 school, strong grades, decent clerkship (but no sdny). lots of interviews, very positive feedback, only one offer from mid-level firm (slightly below avg bonus). have gotten the impression there's a freeze at the firm where i did my summer. would have been much easier a year ago, but i've learned to appreciate what i've got.

Justin, can you clarify what the market rate in Boston is right now for 1 year of clerking? Your chart has Goodwin and Wilmer at $50k, with Ropes only at $35k, but I'd be surprised if this were true.

ATL Groupie - Not to beat a dead horse, but you can get an appt to JSP-12 with "educational substitues" w/o bar membership - info. on JSP grades and steps on
http://www.soyouwanttobealawclerk.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=61

is correct according to my HR source

Oops, missed your comment in this thread, but I responded to it elsewhere.

Basically, as with DC, the "market rate" in Boston has been shifting from $35K to $50K this year (and even in the last two months).

For now, Ropes is still at $35K in their Boston office, but Goodwin, Bingham, WilmerHale, and various Boston offices of NY-based firms have moved to $50K.

For two-year clerkships, though, Ropes is above market with a $70K bonus, which is still fairly unusual in Boston.

Any experiences of firms offering lower clerkship bonuses to corporate associates than litigation associates, even when the office nalp form says 50k? My firm's saying they would do 50k if I was doing litigation, but because I'll be doing corporate, they will only go to 35k. Any thoughts?

Honestly? I would drop the issue. While it is a little sleazy for the firm not to asterisk the 50k on their NALP form, it makes sense because your experience is really litigation experience and does not provide the firm with the same benefit if you're going into corporate work. Unless you have another offer from a firm you like equally who is offering you 50k, I would take the job and 35k and be grateful, especially in this market. The difference of 15k is really nothing in the scheme of things.

I'm a little late to the thread but think I can shed some light. I'm a d.ct clerk in the northeast and have been applying to NYC firms without much luck but one interview....Also, I got a bump in my salary on the basis that I had passed more than one bar exam, so that definitely helped.

I have a related question for others out there: Are clerks applying to big firms through lateral attorney ads or just randomly sending the firms his/her resume?

I just sent out resumes directly to firms and I don't personally know of any clerks who took a different approach. I would sometimes look at firm's posted lateral openings, but more to gage my chances (I would be more optimistic if they said they were hiring junior litigators than if they weren't).

I have definitely found that some markets are pretty much dead right now in terms of hiring (ex. LA, San Diego, Baltimore) but I don't know anything about New York other than what I read about on ATL.

If you are still looking at this point and haven't had much success, I would try looking at smaller markets if you have any location flexibility whatsoever. Like other posters have mentioned, Philly is still hiring. Don't overlook even smaller markets (ex. Wilmington if you are interested in the Philly area generally). Some places in the southwest or midwest are also relatively unaffected by the hiring skitishness some of the bigger markets are facing right now. I have had the most success with "big" firms in mid to small legal markets. Hope that helps!