Ask Me Anything: Lawyer Career Transition
How do I overcome the fear that (i) I feel my network is too small and (ii) that I feel I only know other attorneys?
Elena Deutsch, founder of WILL – Women Interested in Leaving (big) Law, and Casey Berman, founder of Leave Law Behind, are doing something new and exciting with Above the Law. They are writing a regular AMA column, where you’ll be able to ask the career coaches who specialize in helping lawyers ANYTHING to help you clarify and take action towards a new role or alternative career.
Today, we address the question: I know setting up “informational interviews” is key to making a career change, but how do I overcome the fear that (i) I feel my network is too small and (ii) that I feel I only know other attorneys?
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Casey: Let’s talk about lawyers looking to leave the law and informational interviews. One thing many people do already is apply to jobs online. But often your resume goes into a black hole.
Informational interviewing is a strategy to connect with people, learn about their roles, and get more leads. “Hey, thank you for telling me about this XYZ and your experience. Who else can I talk with?” and build on that.
The other critical reason to do informational interviewing is to tap into the hidden job market. Through informational interviewing you gain access to roles that haven’t been posted!
Elena: That’s right, 70% of jobs are not posted! Busy companies and hiring managers have talent needs and often they’re too busy to write a job description, post it, then sort through all the resumes.
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Informational conversations are the #1 way to open doors to new opportunities.
Casey: Let’s talk about when you believe: “I have no network. I don’t know anybody. If I do know anyone on LinkedIn, they’re all attorneys.”
Elena: A common misconception…
Casey: Here’s what I would say to you…
- You have a bigger network than you think. Go back onto LinkedIn, and look at your friends from high school, college, neighborhood, house of worship. You know many more people than attorneys.
- Let’s say that everyone in your LinkedIn network are attorneys, (a) many of those people will still talk to you and help you because they’ve got different experience, and (b) many of those people know non-attorneys. They have nephews who work in a tech company, they have friends or family or spouses who work in a marketing company or operations. You can talk to those folks.
- You can reach out to people via cold or warm LinkedIn messages. This may sound crazy, but we have scripts in Leave Law Behind, and I know Elena has them in WILL as well.
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For example, a Leave Law Behind member told me how he had sent a cold email to someone at a company he’s interested in. She got back to him, and they had a great conversation! Now he’s getting his resume in front of the hiring manager at the company for a potential opportunity.
Elena: Let’s call it a conversation and remove the word “interview”. It takes the pressure off to think “Oh, I’m just having a conversation with another human!”
Let’s emphasize the word “conversations” since that’s what it is. The words “informational interviewing” can throw people off because of the word “interview”, but you are not being interviewed. You are getting to know the other person, and having them get to know you.
Casey: It’s a great point to take the word “interview” out. Attorneys – who are trained to think they need to know everything – in this instance don’t need to know everything! You’re gathering information about this person who’s in this area, in this non-law job area. It gives you a chance to explore if this non-law career might be a fit for you.
You’ll want to ask this person “What is your day-to-day like? How does it work? Do you like it?”
If how this person describes this new job to you doesn’t appeal to you, cross it off your list. If you do like it, ask for more people in this industry you can talk to.
Another way to approach this informational interview is to ask this person, “Hey, I’m a lawyer. I’ve done this audit of my skill and strengths. Do you think I’m a fit for this role?” This person will tell you “yea or nay”. If this person says, “You’re not a fit. There’s another area for you,” that’s a great course correction. If this person says, “Oh, yeah. You can do this,” think about that as a confirmation you’re on the right path.
Casey: The other way to think about this is what you’re literally doing in this informational discussion is asking this person to talk about themselves.
You’re literally saying, “Hey, Casey suggested I contact you. You’re a friend of Casey’s / You’re a friend of Elena’s / You’re a friend of (whoever). You’re in (such and such a non-law space). I’m looking to leave the law … please keep this confidential … my skills and strengths look like they’re a fit with this (such and such) job. I want to learn more. Tell me about your day-to-day.” Let them talk. Who doesn’t want to talk about themselves?
And then you know what you do? You zip it. You close your mouth. You just listen, take notes, nod your head, ask a question here or there, and gain knowledge about this new, non-law career.
And oh yeah, to increase your chances of getting the call scheduled, you can offer to buy them a virtual coffee card – send them a $10 Starbucks gift card.
And to manage time, obviously watch the clock, as you want to be sensitive to their time. And then at the end of the 20 to 30 minutes, whatever it is, say, “Hey, I want to let you go. Really appreciate your time. Is there anyone else you know I could speak with?”, and there you go. And you just build a group of people in this non-law space to talk with. And before you know it, you’ve got a network out of thin air.
Elena: I love what you said before that you just need a beachhead. You don’t need a lot of people to start with you. Start with one, or two, or three. A WILL member who’s going into mechanical engineering, she reached out to someone cold on LinkedIn, who got back to her and that person opened a huge number of doors.
And the one thing I would add is, again, if you think about this as “Oh. I’m just doing my due diligence.” If you’re a risk averse lawyer, this is a way for you to mitigate your risk. You’re doing your due diligence. I had a WILL member who had on her list, “school principal”, “work in HR”, and “open her own trust and estate practice.” She met with school principals – too much schooling, too bureaucratic. She met with someone in HR – she got a full body “No. No way.” Every person she talked to who had their own trust in a safe practice, she got more excited and energized from each conversation. So there you go. Now she’s got a clear path.
And remember, 70% of jobs are not posted.
To send Casey and Elena your questions, submit them here: AskCaseyAndElena@gmail.com
Listen in as Casey and Elena discuss how to leave (big) law and more on the Love or Leave the Law Podcast.
Learn more about Leave Law Behind here.
Learn more about WILL – Women Interested in Leaving (big) Law here.
Elena F. Deutsch, MPH is the CEO of WILL – Women Interested in Leaving (big) Law. She helps attorneys who feel stuck and unhappy, clarify what else they can do, experience relief and act on their dreams. Since founding WILL in 2017, it has been her joy to help women (and a few men) transform their careers and lives. Her work has been featured in Above the Law, Bloomberg Big Law Business, The American Lawyer and more. You can find her on LinkedIn or at www.womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com.
Casey Berman (University of California, Hastings College of the Law ’99), is the founder of Leave Law Behind, a career coaching program that helps unhappy attorneys leave their legal practice for their dream, “alternative” career. Casey focused primarily on software licensing for five years before leaving the law behind in 2004. Since then, his career has helped him develop a wide range of skills, as Management Consultant, VP Operations, Chief Communications Officer and Investment Banker. Casey just wrote an in-depth article to help you understand why it is you don’t like being a lawyer, click here to read more.
