Given the state of the legal economy, I don’t have a problem with grade inflation at top law schools. The job market is terrible enough as it is. If an extra (inflated and totally BS) third of a grade helps a student get a job right now, I think that is fine. Whatever, sometimes you have to “juke the stats,” and I understand that.
But it’s not cool when schools institute grade inflation secretly and hope nobody will notice. It’s not cool when schools try to pass off grade inflation as something other than grade inflation. Law schools have to do what they have to do, but there is no reason to pretend that everybody is stupid.
At Harvard Law School and at Georgetown University Law Center, the administrations have decided that their students need things to be a little easier. But neither law school seems willing to admit that the economy played a role in their sudden embrace of grade reform.
Details after the jump.
As many of you know, HLS recently changed from a letter grade system to a modified pass/fail system. Now the grades are High Pass/Pass/Low Pass/Fail.
Pretty sweet if you are looking to float on.
When the new grading system was implemented, however, there was a mandate that 8% of the class had to receive a “low pass.” This is Harvard, after all.
But not anymore. Multiple tipsters echoed this news:
Just learned that HLS faculty voted to dump mandatory LPs. Huge relief.
And it’s true. The HLS faculty decided they didn’t want to put up with students bitching, crying, and threatening their lives over receiving low passes, so they changed the mandatory requirement. Hey, why uphold a standard that is hard when having no standards is so much easier?
Of course, professors still have the discretion to give out low passes, but now the LP can just be reserved for students who totally blow off the class or who get into a personal grudge match with their professors. You know, the kind of student an old-school professor would have the stones to fail.
There’s not anything wrong with HLS turning into a Kumbaya-singing circle jerk of grade stroking — I just wish they had it when I was there.
And you know who really wishes this “vote” had come a little bit sooner? Every 2L who received a mandatory low pass last semester and just finished trying to interview with a rock of kryptonite hanging around his or herc neck.
Which brings us to Georegetown Law. Today, GULC announced that it too is making a fundamental change to its grading system. Here’s the pertinent part of the press release that Above the Law received from approximately 5,000,000 Georgetown 3Ls:
The Georgetown Law faculty today unanimously passed an updated grading curve for the Law Center. This curve will go into effect immediately and will affect the grades students will receive for this semester in addition to future ones. This change only impacts classes with exams (not seminars, clinics, etc.).
Over the past 20 years, LSAT scores for entering GULC students have jumped from 165 to 170, and the undergraduate GPA has risen from 3.54 to 3.68. However, the grading curve had not been adjusted to reflect the rising quality of our students since 1994. The Curriculum & Academic Standards student-faculty committee recommended these changes to the faculty based in part on the curves from other schools and also based on faculty members’ feelings about the rising level of student performance.
I love it when law schools argue that grades need to be made easier because their students have gotten better. I mean, can you imagine any other institution making the same suggestion? “Well, Commissioner Stern, the Wizards are now so good that I believe we should get four points for every basket. We are so good that getting extra points is really the only way we can fairly compete against the Lakers and the Celtics.”
While 1Ls and 2Ls seem elated by the change, 3Ls — especially 3Ls without jobs — are pissed:
Graduating form Georgetown this spring. Thanks for absolutely nothing you a$$holes.
Please print this!
For a slightly more eloquent explanation, listen to this guy:
Horrible horrible horrible timing.
While I can certainly understand how this change will help 1Ls and incoming students, this is my very last semester at GULC. So this is awful for me, and for other people on the verge of graduating. We worked hard for the grades we got, and now those grades will look worse when compared to younger students who are being graded under the new system. I have had an almost impossible time getting a job, and this will make my job prospects even lower because when compared with other GULC students, my GPA will appear lower.
Again, I don’t have a problem with a little grade inflation. It’s the least law schools — especially top law schools — can do for their students, given their inability to secure jobs for their graduates.
But just be honest about what you are doing. Give those who didn’t benefit from the inflation a chance to say: “My school just officially inflated grades. Here, read this. My grade inflation adjusted GPA is [X], if you must know.”
The full Georgetown announcement appears below.
Earlier: Harsh Curve: Competing Thoughts From Florida International and Loyola – Los Angeles
GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER — ANNOUNCEMENT — GRADE REFORM
To: Georgetown Law Student Bar Association
From: Patrick Hughes, William Broderick-Villa & Rachel Fersh
Student members, Curriculum & Academic Standards Committee
Date: December 2, 2009
Re: Equalizing the Grading Curve
The Georgetown Law faculty today unanimously passed an updated grading curve for the Law Center. This curve will go into effect immediately and will affect the grades students will receive for this semester in addition to future ones. This change only impacts classes with exams (not seminars, clinics, etc.).
Over the past 20 years, LSAT scores for entering GULC students have jumped from 165 to 170, and the undergraduate GPA has risen from 3.54 to 3.68. However, the grading curve had not been adjusted to reflect the rising quality of our students since 1994. The Curriculum & Academic Standards student-faculty committee recommended these changes to the faculty based in part on the curves from other schools and also based on faculty members’ feelings about the rising level of student performance.
Below is a summary of the new grading curve in comparison with the former curve.
Current Curve (12/2/09)
Grade Class Share
A 12%
A- 19%
B+ 28%
B 31%-36%
B- and below 5%-10%
Previous Curve
Grade Class Share
A 10%
A- 15%
B+ 25%
B 30%
B- 15%
C+ and below 5%
There will also be a new, optional A+ grade that faculty members have the discretion (but are not required) to give for truly outstanding performance. Faculty members are not expected to give out an “A+” in each class (in other words, it likely will be rarer than a “best exam” award). The current 4.0 grading scale will not change, however, and the A+ will be worth a weight of 4.0. The committee decided not to follow the practice of our peer institutions, most of which grade on a 4.3 scale. Transcripts now will include a notation that GPAs are calculated on a 4.0 scale, in order to prevent confusion.
We would especially like to express gratitude to Professor Lazarus, the Chair of the Curriculum and Academic Standards Committee, and Dean O’Neil for all of their sensitivity to student interests and hard work in ensuring the new policy was passed expediently. We would also like to thank the rest of the members of the committee: Professors Chris Brummer, Michael Cedrone, Craig Hoffman, and Jane Stromseth for their hard work and significant input.
Thank you New York Senate for taking the right action.
Ichiban!!!
FIRSTY McFIRSTERSON wishes gulc had this when he was a 1L…
first to say total BS
Thank you New York Senate for taking the right action.
Not ichiban!!!
Not even nibanme!!
DAMN!
-FMcF
Whether you receive an “A” or an “A-” from Georgetown Law matters very little, as nothing will erase the fact that you are a graduate of a non-peer, non-preeminent law school.
I hate you GULC. Thanks for making it even harder for me to find a job.
Unemployed GULC grad – c/o 2008.
We just need to get rid of grades altogether and send student into interviews with only their LSAT scores. Grades are too subjective, with harder and easier classes, and impossible to compare across schools with all these rampant changes. The LSAT is the only common measuring stick.
Walrus took everything pass/fail.
This is ridiculous. Many 3L’s took the steep-curve courses last year. The new curve penalizes us by allowing others to take those same courses on a juiced-up curve. While I have no issue with changing the grading scheme, common courtesy requires some meaningful notice. One week before exams is NOT IT.
Grade inflation is a joke and is a result of schools caving in to students’ fears that someone might tell them that they aren’t the most special people in the world and that they actually might not be perfect at something.
What’s next, graduation ceremonies for 1Ls and 2Ls? Quit the hand-holding and let students have to deal with the real-world scenario that sometimes you just aren’t good enough.
it’s hard to inflate a class rank
so what is the new GULC curve?
Elie Mystal’s biggest accomplishment was getting into Harvard Law.
HAHA, now even HLS and GLUC have become TTT
Dear 17,
It’s BS.
Dear 17,
It’s BS.
If you wants Cs, some to the University of Chicago, the only school with rampant grade DEflation. We even print T-shirts: Chicago, where the only thing to go down on you is your GPA.
Class rank or published percentiles / hard cutoffs for graduation honors (e.g., x = Top %5, y = Top 10%) solves this problem.
Sitting in my office, I was just admiring my balls and came to the realization that they are fucking huge!
whoooohooooo
As a GULC 3L (taking practically only seminars, which are reportedly unaffected by the change), my first reaction was the same frustration as expressed above. But, frankly, I’d rather be in my last year of law school with a less-advantageous grading curve than be a 1L or 2L with the better numbers.
Let’s be honest: in this economy, students are going to be more driven than ever to kick ass on their exams. With greater drive there will be better performance. So, while the change in grading is obviously a response to the economy, so too will the quality of the work. In the end, 1Ls and 2Ls may not have it much easier… they’re involved in one of the most competitive battles for the top grades in a long time.
–A 3L and loving it
As a 3L at Georgetown, I think people need to stop crying over the grade issue. First, with a policy change like this, some class of individuals are always going to get screwed. It doesn’t mean a change shouldn’t be made. Second, the percentiles aren’t going to materially change so there will always be at least the 10% and 33% cutoffs, however imperfect, to serve as an intergenerational baseline.
As to Georgetown’s disingenuous motives, I can’t speak directly to that. I at least know that one of the professors on the committee seems to have a long-time gripe with how stringent grading is in law school. Whether the change now was motivated by the economy, a change at other schools, or dumb luck is an open question.
I heard Peller promises a common stock of A+s for all!
I agree with 24.
I agree with 24.
28,
1) Of course it affects the percentiles. Some of us took the hard courses last year; others in our year will now take those same courses on the new curve. You do the math.
2) Some prof’s have a gripe with grades? Fine. They can give-up tenure and go try to find a job.
The problem here is that this was done in the dead of night a week before exams. It is absolutely unprofessional.
By 16’s standard the 65% of HLS students in any class who get Ps will be screwed in interviews. Way to think things through.
The truth is it was a stilly system to force a professor who had 10 indistinguishable exams at the bottom of the class to brand 6 with the scarlet letter. Professor’s can now brand the 10 or brand none.
How long after graduating do firms actually look at your grades?
So what are schools who want to change their grade curves supposed to do? Stop accepting new students until the the school is empty, administer the change and then let new people in?
15, 24, and 27 — +1
Class rank/dean’s list %s don’t change.
15, 24, and 27 — +1
Class rank/dean’s list %s don’t change.
This policy doesn’t do anything to affect the curve (which GULC does release, and is the only grading metric firms do care about), and is just a public statement that a Georgetown A means less than it used to. Boo to that.
GULC 3L
I think this is only for HLS 1Ls. There wasn’t a memo sent out. My understanding is the rest of the school is still on a mandatory LP curve.
Actually at Harvard, the low passes were not mandatory. The curve was “highly suggested”, but many professors chose not to follow it. The change simply reflects what the low pass curve was initially meant to be (Suggested). The change clears up some mistaken beliefs for professors, and some have said that they will take it as a sign to give less low passes. The problem is that employers regard a low pass as a black mark, and it really isn’t fair to discriminate so strongly on a test that barely distinguishes between aptitude.
The only reason firms care about grades at all is b/c that’s virtually the ONLY way to differentiate among all the 24 y/o, snot-nosed dolts in law schools today. Northwestern has it right — they prefer students with substantive work experience and some semblance of maturity and an interesting background.
Any firm worth a damn would prefer a student with some maturity, leadership experience, and perspective than the 24 y/o moron who spent his whole life in academia but happens to write a mean torts exam!
If a professor doesn’t have a C paper, why should he have to give one?
this would never happen at widener
freaking communism.
@42 – If a professor doesn’t have an A paper, why should he have to give one?
If a professor doesn’t have a C paper, it also may be an indication that the professor didn’t write a very good test.
-14
Who cares? Class rank is what matters.
Grade inflation and grade clouding at top schools – now that is just funny. As if we didn’t know it was already a fact. As if these students needed more of a leg-up?
It’s also funny that at some lower-tier schools (i.e., lower in tier 1) you actually have to earn grades and develop a solid foundation for practicing law.
I’m sure these students can remember when they made the remark – “Mommy (or) Daddy [divorced], help! I’m caught in the sandbox again and touched some sand! Eeeww! Help me, I cant help myself!”
Let’s be clear what this means. This isn’t a gift to HLS 1Ls. The only grades you can be proud of now are straight Hs. I had 8Hs 2Ps last year and got shit for a job this year. When you’re in a class of 80, the worst 7 exams should be clearly identified to employers, and you should not be upset when they don’t want to hire you.
Thanks for the notice, GULC. This news is almost as bad as the quality of career services at the law school.
Law students need to relax. 10 years from now none of this will matter…. grades will be a distant memory.
STOP USING REFERENCES TO “THE WIRE” IN YOUR POSTS!
Is all you do watch television?
This would never happen at Yale.
-YALE 1L SECURE
@48
It’s your shitty attitude, not your grades.
I am so glad I chose SMU over GULC.
While class rank and the dean’s list would be methods by which to continue to compare students, many of the schools with pass-fail systems don’t rank their students. (Or so the OSCAR profiles claim.)When interviewing clerkship applicants, the judge I work for refused to look at applicants from those schools because he had no way to determine who was actually good, better, and best.
44 is correct. America is in decline because everyone is afraid to fail. Makes me sick.
“just finished trying to interview with a rock of kryptonite hanging around his or HERC neck.”
55 makes a great point. Law school shouldn’t be like the Special Olympics where “Everyone is a Winner!”
I went to a school that ranked everyone- first to last. And the Rank showed how many students were in the class, so employers got a clear picture as to exactly where you fell. So the really low curve (over half of the first year class got Cs in every class – - the horror!) didn’t matter because you had your official Rank on your transcript.
But then again, I’m old enough to remember a time when you had to actually stand and recite in law school. The times have changed!
The problem with using (even more) grade inflation to help current students is it hurts recent grads looking for jobs, who didn’t receive this benefit. Given how many laid-off attorneys there are from t-14 schools, I would advise schools to trend carefully in this area.
In the age of Obama, everyone is a winner. RIP meritocracy.
How the heck are employers going to choose which students to select from HLS now that there is only a High Pass / Pass grading system? I think now the risk is that if you hire a HLS grad, you may be hiring someone from the bottom of the barrel and not even know it.
This is BULLSHIT!!!!!
You had to bust your ASS off to get A’s or A-’s.
28% B+’s. WTF
only 5-10% for B-’s and BELOW!!!
So we’re ensuring that everyone gets a 3 point average or above.
Why not just do social promotion while we’re at it.
Pissed off GULC ‘09 errr, Georgetown Law ‘09, who worked his ass off for decent grades that now look shitty under this weak ass curve.
“jewk the stats”?
That’s racist.
I am a Georgetown 3L and even though I hate people who comment on ATL I just wanted to say, “great work” to my fellow 3L’s for bashing our school for being responsive to YOUR complaints about the curve. Change happens, if this is an opportunity to help 1Ls and 2Ls better compete in this economy in which other schools already have inflated grading curves why wouldn’t we be for it? The bottom line is you will receive the benefit of this change for both the fall and spring semesters. Maybe you should leave the griping for, oh, I dunno, last year’s graduates. If you don’t have a job, maybe you should take a hard look at your attitude instead of your transcript, nobody applauds self-entitlement.
Know what’s laughable? Georgetown didn’t notify recent grads of this change. Perhaps they decided that going below the radar was more professional?
What a bunch of TTTs
- Western New England School of Law Secure
Congratulations, you are all the same now–elite as compared against most other law schools, but average amongst yourselves.
@45 – That’s a very good question. I don’t think he should, which is why a more flexible curve may be a more honest one.
It could be a bad test. It’s also possible that when you take a group of people that have performed similarly up to law school, they may continue to do so.
- 42
Why is it only okay for top law schools to inflate grades?
That’s like saying just because you got into HLS means you don’t need to demonstrate your abilities any further. However, students who go a lower T-1 with marginally different LSAT scores are markedly different.
This so doesn’t matter. The class ranking percentiles won’t be harder or easier to get, because you’ll either be compared to your classmates (the graduation percentiles) or to people on the same curve (the annual percentiles).
It doesn’t really change much. Now if get a B people will know you were in the bottom 1/3 instead of the B- you would have gotten before.
PS: What the hell does year-school-”SECURE” mean? As in “1L YALE SECURE.” It sounds pretty fucking lame, but perhaps there’s meaning in there.
GULC student pulls out all four inches of his c*ck at a party and states “all the girls at school tell me I’m above average.”
65,
Georgetown doesn’t give a shit about recent graduates unless it wants money from them. If you aren’t giving money to the school (either through tuition or donations) then you don’t exist.
Now… just imagine what happens to 3Ls and recent grads when a Law School inflates the median GPA from a 2.8 to a 3.4. (See, e.g., LSU Law).
All you right wing haters, please note that the Harvard grade change was put into motion during the Bush Administration, and is yet another unfortunate mess inherited by President Obama.
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2009/12/clearyand-not-wachtellon-bofas-bailout-payback.html
owned.
I am a GULC alum from the class of ‘09. I know many people from my class who are still looking for jobs. As this change was clearly intended to help students with their interviews, it will make that much harder to compete with current 3Ls and 2Ls on the job market, as it will appear as if their grades are better than recent grads. The economy was bad last year too, why couldn’t this have been done then?
Horrible way to screw over their recent alumni.
ok, I think I’m the only 2L upset about this, but I don’t have a job for next summer. Am I correct in thinking this is going to hurt me?
To all of the current and former GULC students b*tching about this change, cry me a f*cking river…Over a year ago it was VERY obvious that things were going to change. OCI was sketch, and kids were getting their jobs deferred. We aren’t entitled to “big law” jobs, or any private sector job for that matter (not to imply we’re entitled to public positions either). I’m sick of these nerdy kids complaining about having a tough time in the job market and complaining that some firm (which they feel is below their level to begin with) didn’t give them an offer. Pick up your skirts, grab your balls (if you have any), and go hustle for a job (that’s what I did)…And save me the comments on # so and so obviously doesn’t work for a good firm blah blah blah. Cause I actually have a job that pays market (no deferred start date), so I could give two sh*ts what you think.
-GULC 3L job, albeit with small firm, secured (BOO-YA, flippin you dorks the bird!!!)
64,
I am also at GULC. I assumed six-figures of debt to earn my JD here. Which is what I have done; I earned my degree. While people sat on the quad drinking away weekday afternoons during 1L, I studied. Now, GULC wants to reward those idiots in 3L year.
Well that’s unfortunate. It’s unfortunate for me, but its more unfortunate for the school. I start my job next year, and will earn money this school will never get a penny of. EVER.
79,
We’ll see what you’ll be saying in a year when your small firm fires you for “performance” reasons. Try passing the bar and working as an attorney before you start talking like you’ve figured it all out.
Because there are not a bunch of sloppy asses everywhere, it is not very honest to have a low curve at a top school. The complaint for the 3Ls should be more like: and why the f wasn’t it adjusted since 1994?
Chicago is not the only school with grade inflation — Wash U is all over that. And cant even use a normal grading system to help people figure it out.
GULC 3L with a job here:
All this means is I can slack just a bit more this year without risk of total disaster.
-V100 SECURE
Gary Peller for Dean. He’ll abolish grades! They’re indeterminate.
Canon law is coming! VICTORY! – John Masslon
GULC employed 3L here — just stopped studying for exams
Straight LPs from Yale > Straight Ps from HLS
48:
8 Hs and 2Ps and no solid job? You must have an AWFUL personality, even by HLS standards (which is saying a lot considering the complete douches here who got jobs solely on their grades). Plenty of kids had straight Ps or 1 LP and still got V50 in major markets and the ones who didn’t are more than capable and have just been arbitrarily branded in a lousy economy. The whole class would normally get hired in prior years…so, sucks to be you (for many reasons).
- submedian HLS 2L with biglaw job and some semblance of people skills.
“This change only impacts classes with exams (not seminars, clinics, etc.).”
The word “impact” should not used as a verb! Instead, use “affect.”
Though the changes aren’t going to help GULC rise from the grave, you have to admit that Professor Lazarus is a pretty cool name.
So basically, grades at Harvard are now going to range from good to great — what a quality grading system! Small schools like Yale, Stanford can get away with having no differentiation among their students, but a 550 student / year behemoth like Harvard? Not exactly.
RIchard Lazarus is a pretty good guy. Lazarus for assistant dean. Peller for dean!
Yeah 80, you figured it all out by passing up that two hours of Wednesday Wind Down every week. Your grades must be stellar.
81 -
I got hired based on my “performance.” I’m more likely to get fired for banging out the wife of a douche bag like you who somehow made partner b/c of his “performance.”
79
I was just tipped off that Denise Sangster will be Georgetown’s new dean. I hear her first act will be re-instituting the prior grade curve but with bags of poop instead of As.
I have a hard time having sympathy for the first GULC tipster who can’t even distinguish between “from” and “form.” Or 13, who hasn’t grasped proper use of the apostrophe.
More and more firms will start to see students from these schools as a bunch of entitled pussies who couldn’t prove themselves and will prefer to hire from a place where the employer can figure out who did well.
The above applies primarily to Georgetown, not Harvard.
HLS = GULC
94,
I liked Wednesday Wind Down. It was a good way to spend two hours. It was an enjoyable, once-a-week activity.
But that is just not the issue. The reality is that this school has its share of people who put in neither the time nor the effort. I disapprove of the administration rewarding them now at the expense of others. While I feel badly for those who were unexpectedly deferred, this is a poor response executed in an unprofessional manner.
And that is the biggest problem. This decision came down one week before exams. There was no real notice. There was no phase-in. It just happened. It is like a football game where the ref arbitrarily changes the rules with 2 minutes to go in the 4th. It is bullsh**t and both sides know it.
-80
I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason I’m leaving Georgetown as a 3L without a job is because I was an entitled little shit that didn’t study as hard as the rest of the people in my class. Thank god for the new curve so I don’t have to admit that ever again.
- Yeah right, 3L with a V5. Suckers.
100: We call that Manning brothers football when the refs start calling pass interference calls left and right, don’t flag the offense on holding, and everyone is still shocked how they rack up so many 4th quarter comebacks.
80/100,
Stop being such a gunner crybaby. Also, your analogy sucks.
@70,
65 here.
Gtown Law doesn’t give you your percentile. They just tell you if you’re top 1/3, 10%, or 15%. That’s it.
This change definitely makes a difference for 1Ls and some large 2L classes, but my experience has been that professors tend to use their discretion wherever they think it is appropriate. This change may give some of those “discretion” professors more wiggle room, but the complainers should stop pretending that every single class that they have taken at Georgetown fell on a strict curve (and if it did, you had a choice to take classes that didn’t fall on a strict curve).
For the new alums who complain, it truly does suck. Still, if the administration felt like this change needed to happen, then it was going to affect some class no matter what. It’s unfortunate that it will affect the recent alums w/o a job, but I’m not sure what sensible remedy they would propose.
103,
The analogy is strange because that crap doesnt happen in football. It’s contrary to all principles of fair play. And, until today, I didnt think it happened in law school either. But there you go.
To have winners, there have to be losers.
106: I think the better analogy is basketball where the refs basically stop calling fouls on star players in the last minute or two of the game. Think Jordan, LeBron, Wade (who won the NBA Finals by consistent charging into the lane, but always getting the calls).
The idea that somehow last year’s HLS’s Low Passers should somehow be pitied is funny.
Is that like wringing one’s hands at the iBankers who feel the need to purchase guns in fear of peasant revolts? After all, fully half of them got below average bonuses this year!
OMG How is it fine that a bogus inflated grade gives one person an edge over another person in getting a job. It’s not like the employer is creating an extra position for the guy with the inflated grades. The guy with the unfair advantage is pushing someone else out! Of course I shouldn’t be surprised that this is coming from Elie who also thinks it’s fine to give people unfair advantage for being black even if it results in disadvantage for a completely innocent and deserving white person.
I’m a 3L at Harvard, currently in the top 10%. The Dean and my family go way back so he and I often spend time together. I often stop by his office and he bounces things off of me to get a “student” perspective. One day he broached the idea of grade “softening”. He discussed the various pros and cons, and is often the case with him he got a little long winded. I had a class coming up in about 10 minutes and I glanced at my watch to see how much time left. He noticed me looking at my watch and challenge whether I really cared about the grading policy of Harvard Law. I fervently requested that he look at me when I talk to you boy! I’ve spent fucking 22 years serving this country! 22 years! I’ve seen boys blown up over the pacific, their guts strewn out over rice paddies in Vietnam! So believe me when I say I give a shit!
@42 – you really don’t think professors at all schools routinely get C papers? Don’t kid yourself – professors see F papers all the time and have to give them Cs. Grade inflation is rampant, even down the food chain.
I think you’re all missing the point. Lazarus is awesome.
–GULC 1L TORTS SECURE
Elie, grade inflation has much in common with immigration: it rouses deep passions, stirs debate and is often misrepresented. The immigration debate often fails to differentiate between illegal immigration and legal immigration. When explicitly labeled, it becomes clearer that the problems identified by anti-immigrationists overwhelmingly relate to illegal immigration; yet legal immigration is too often affected by the broad brush strokes applied.
Similarly, grade inflation fails to differentiate between natural grade inflation and artificial grade inflation. Natural grade inflation occurs because students perform better in school assessments, while artificial grade inflation occurs because of arbitrary changes to the method of assessing student performance. To draw an analogy with the 100 meter sprint, natural grade inflation is like the average times falling because athletes are genuinely faster and artificial grade inflation is like the average times falling because the tracks become shorter or slope downhill. Much as it is ridiculous to reject out of hand the theory that athletes have become faster, so is it ridiculous to reject out of hand the theory that students have not become better performers.
I am careful not to state that students are smarter, which they might be for all I know, just that they perform better on assessments. With billions of dollars spent on tutoring, more pre-professionalism and general increased awareness of “what it takes”, it should not be surprising if more students are better prepared to score higher on exams.
To this point I have been talking about performance on absolute grading systems, where a raw score equates to a predetermined letter grade. Relative grading systems, i.e. curves, reveal nothing of students’ absolute performance and thus actual proficiency. An “A” grade in a curved class indicates that the recipient scored better than at least a certain proportion of their peers, fairly useless “information” without context. (I also doubt that student performance can reasonably be assumed to be binomially distributed, but this isn’t the forum for statistical analysis.) Imagine that there is a class solely of Nobel Prize winners, in the same subject, that were to be graded on a curve with a mandatory “low pass” percentage. The grade of “low pass” would be a misnomer, if not downright uninformative, especially if there were another class with merely average students. How comparable would the performance of low passers from these two pools be?
-OD
112, I don’t know; I have only seen my own. The point is just that if there isn’t one (or ten), should he (or she) have to give them out?
Gary Peller for Dean!
80/100/106,
I didn’t say it was strange. I said it sucked.
117,
Why are you wasting your time here? I’m sure some firm is hungering for your disjointed, two-sentence arguments. Run to them.
80/100
GULC curve is recommended, not mandatory. Because of grade inflation, grades (at least after IL year) were already higher than the old curve. I bet this change will have no effect, because it’s likely that grades have already inflated above even the new curve.
119 – at GULC, grade inflation is typically limited to seminars. classes with over ~30 students (I don’t know what the specific number is) are the same as 1L classes in their curve. and besides, even if that weren’t the case, shifting the curve for 1L alone puts recent alum at a disadvantage.
that said, there have been a lot of complaints from GULC students concerning a lack of notice – that this came out of left field. though that’s true, I don’t see how it really changes anything. so what if the GULC administration would given three months notice or waited til spring semester to enforce the curve. would that have changed the outcome?
For those of us who don’t have the luxury of this curve, like me, I have found that a website LegallyNoted.com has been very helpful for law school checklists, outlines, etc. This is the worst time of the year, but in 2 weeks it will all be over :) Good luck!
120 has it.
As for the “notice” complaints, I think people object for two reasons. First, they would have changed their course load had they known about the new curve (less seminars, maybe?). And second, they would have taken the meat-and-potatoes courses this year. For instance, those who took corporations or tax I last year were graded on a tougher curve than their classmates taking the same course this year.
Top 1/3 for final years (3L, 4E, 8K, whatever) is a 3.6.
Top 1/3 for 1Ls is somewhere around a 3.37.
http://www.law.georgetown.edu/registrar/DiplomasHonorsCommencement.htm
HLS dean just sent out an email saying this post is completely false. Carry on, ATL, carry on.
124 – not completely false, just saying that the curve has NEVER been mandatory, and that they recently did remind professors of this fact.
but yeah basically this is a non-story – nothing new for ATL.
Message from HLS Vice Dean for Academic Programming Andrew Kaufman:
We have recently become aware of all sorts of rumors floating around about “changes” in our so-called grading curve, in particular the percentage of Low Passes. In fact, we have never had and do not now have a mandatory curve. All we have had for the last twenty years is a recommended curve. We did not recently change that curve. All we have done is to make clear to faculty that under the new grading system and in keeping with the recommended nature of the curve, they have discretion regarding the exact percentage of grades to be given in each category.
Gary Peller had the highest GPA at Harvard ever. Peller for GULC Dean!
Guys in my high school used to send messages describing curves all the time. It was no big deal.
GULC 2L here.
Am I the only one who doesn’t think this is all that significant? The change doesn’t seem all that drastic. When I did my interviews, I guarantee you that .05 difference in my GPA didn’t matter – one’s composure, attitude, articulation, work experience, etc… all matter a lot more in an interview than a tenth of a GPA point. Firms have GPA cutoffs, but if you’re in the ballpark, they look to those other factors. We’re not talking about the difference between a 3.3 and a 3.6 realistically in anyone’s GPA. I understand GULC recent alums being upset, and the school announcing this a week before tests is way sketchy, but I think for most students this is making a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe I’ll be singing a different tune if I don’t get an offer after my SA gig next summer.
Life is not a meritocracy.
Every game requires both skill and luck. We all have a leg up compared to most people. Let’s smile and celebrate that our biggest problem today is a slightly different gloss on our otherwise gleaming permanent records.
We’re all a bit too entitled and we’re also a bit too cranky. Everyone of us needs to realize that other people work much harder than us with much less physical comfort, and they get even less respect, recognition, and security for their work.
Can’t wait for people to call me a douschenozzle.
Snark it up,
CK
Georgetown Law doesn’t give a fuck about its students. We are nothing but money machines for them. This decision has nothing to do with looking out for the students – if we get “better” grades, maybe we’ll get jobs, then maybe we give money back to the school. That’s all the administration cares about.
I’m so fucking sick of this place and all its bullshit. Wish so much I had gone elsewhere. I had plenty of options.
Fuck you, Georgetown. I fucking hate you.
Georgetown Law doesn’t give a fuck about its students. We are nothing but money machines for them. This decision has nothing to do with looking out for the students – if we get “better” grades, maybe we’ll get jobs, then maybe we give money back to the school. That’s all the administration cares about.
I’m so fucking sick of this place and all its bullshit. Wish so much I had gone elsewhere. I had plenty of options.
Fuck you, Georgetown. I fucking hate you.
132-
Sounds like you need someone who will love you–unconditionally. There is a man who will do that and he can lead the GULC to Level 3 and beyond. That man is Gary Peller. Gary Peller for Dean!
The relaxed grading makes sense because the grades at a place like HLS are completely arbitrary to begin with. Almost everyone here is pretty damn smart and capable; the differential of ability within a class is rather minute. So professors give out exams to 80 people who are more or less on equal footing, then they have a week to read and grade 800-1200 pages of identical pieces of writing. How could they possibly digest each student’s exam in a meaningful fashion? They just quickly skim through the exam responses and go with a gut check on the grade. These grades are meaningless in terms of student ability. So why should there be a broad curved spectrum of grades? It creates a completely artificial hierarchy and punishes those few individuals who are randomly chosen to bring up the rear.
Not only do I applaud the grading revisions, I think HLS should follow Yale’s model and make all 1L classes credit/no credit. Yes, it sucks that employers won’t be able quickly distinguish between candidates, but they were distinguishing based on a completely arbitrary construct, not a merit-based system.
-HLS 1L
For nearly forty years I felt honored to teach law and to be associated with what I considered fine, rigorous law schools. That begin to change, however, many years ago when grade inflation crept in, partly to make the school’s students “more competitive in the market place;’ partly due to a rising grade entitlement infectious norm, conditioned from primary through high school then college and finally infecting the professional schools. And, sad to say, partly because professors did not wish to respond to the question: “how could YOU give me that low grade? “versus, “what did I do wrong and how can I improve by performance?” Times change, often for the worse.
He’s a ten-foot tall beast man, who showers in vodka, and feeds his baby shrimp scampi.
To Gary Peller!
Really Above the Law? Really?
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that this GULC email was not an official email from the GULC administration but rather an email from students who served on the committee to the student body so that they could be notified of the change ASAP. And I am appreciative that they let us know so quickly and didn’t let the administration keep it a secret.
So everyone complain away, but let’s stop imputing the statements in the message above to GULC as a whole.
The internal SBA email at GULC made it clear that the economic situation was part of the decision. As for when this was announced, my impression was that the discussion regarding the change really picked up over the last few weeks. While it’s been mentioned before, there was more support for it in recent months than before.
Sorry to the 3Ls/recent alums who feel they are getting gipped, but at the same time why not think that this is a way to help us compete more against schools like HLS/Yale that are basically refusing to grade substantively because they know they are superior in the minds of employers. Is GULC the best? No, but it could be much worse. And I say that coming from GU undergrad.
Under GLUC’s logic, tier 3 schools should fail half their class.
After all, low LSAT scores and low GPAs mean entitled to low grades.
@139 -
Don’t a lot of tier 3 schools do just that? I thought at schools like Cooley and Widener they fail the lower 3rd of the class anyway. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
135, there’s a bit of entitlement when you put “more competitive in the market place” in quotes. You were a law professor. These students were going into serious debt based on a marketing scheme that told them professors like you help them reach that next professional level. When that turns out to be incorrect, they lose money. Meanwhile, the professors are mostly tenured, and even if they aren’t, their professional futures aren’t based on their ability to teach the students. It’s based on getting published. Most importantly, formal student feedback is kept private. New admissions recruits don’t get to see professors report cards before deciding to take out $120,000+ in debt. So a concern for market competitiveness, given the ugly backdrop of the costs involved, is a valid one.
To merely be accepted into a school such as Harvard Law or GULC, a student has to have top-notch undergraduate grades from a respected school, a stellar LSAT score, and a fair amount of personal accomplishments and accolades. The student is then thrust into a 1L class with over 500 other students who are all at a similar skill level. They are then graded on a strict curve, meaning that it is simply not possible for everyone to get an A/A-, even if they try as hard as they can.
But what if these students had gone to a second-tier law school, where they presumably could have aced the exams against students who simply did not try as hard on the LSAT or as undergrads? They might be able to walk out of these schools with a 3.6 GPA, without having to try nearly as hard as they would have to walk out of GULC or any other top-15 school with a 3.2 GPA.
The grading system is flawed, because it pits students in the same school against each other, instead of rewarding them for achieving an individually high level on an exam. With such a grading system, it truly is fair to allow for a more generous curve at top schools, because these students will be competing for jobs against graduates from schools that were much easier to get into (and generally have a lower caliber intellectual population).
People who didn’t go to a top school, and who complain about these new grading scales at Harvard and GULC, are just bitter because they probably weren’t able to get into one of these schools in the first place.
And I second that GULC doesn’t really care about its graduates. Their career services office is downright pathetic. They only thing they do to help you is remind students of the importance of networking, as if we hadn’t learned that prior to starting law school.
141, not to take anything away from your clearly heartfelt sentiment but, did you really think that comment 135 was written by a law professor? I mean, what law professor do you know trolls the ATL comments with word vomit evidencing such absurd grammar as “that begin to change”? Don’t believe everything you read in anonymously posted comments.
Very truly yours,
Justice Scalia.
Why does no one mention how this gives an unfair advantage to transfer students at GULC?
Doesn’t this give an unfair advantage to transfer students at GULC?
This is fair. At schools like Harvard and Georgetown the great sorting has already taken place. At other law schools there are still many gems among the ranks, but they need the chance to prove themselves via grading systems that allow sorting to take place. Not so at top tier law schools.
The faux professor is a total fuckstick. We’re talking about PROFESSIONAL school. Law school academia is not like academia in the humanities or even in the sciences. If it were, you would get paid like a classics professor. Trust me, you wouldn’t stand for it. Law schools need to respond to the market because their primary purpose is to serve the market. If you want intellectual purity and to be divorced from the “dirtiness” of the capitalist system, major in philosophy or art history.
Fuckstick.
It’s too bad that we can’t come up with a standardized testing system for all 1Ls at ABA accredited schools. It would be more useful for employers if entire classes were ranked against each other using one test.
Curving students at Harvard against one another is just silly – these are all extremely smart and motivated people and there’s no way, for the most part, that any of them deserve C’s. On the other hand, if someone is at the top of the class at a low-ranked school they may not get the recognition they deserve in comparison to middling students at NYU.
If I were an employer I would consider working some kind of standardized test into my hiring process. It’s the only way to know if someone from the top 25% at Emory is really better or worse than someone from the bottom 25% at Harvard.
Oh well.
Odds are that somebody in the bottom 25% at Harvard is still better than somebody in the top 25% at Emory.
It’s about time georgetown did this. Lower tier GULC grads compete for spots in the DC market with lower ranking schools that have easier grading curves. That’s unfair. American gives you latin honors if you spell your name correctly. I know an order of the coif from Catholic who writes memos that read like a 13 year old’s book report.
George Washington is way better than either Georgetown or Harvard.
Here’s a thought… maybe the GULC administration was being mindful of the sizable evening school population. Many of these peeps work in the private sector. For them, the economic downturn means that their law school studies take a distant second to staying employed. I wouldn’t be surprised if you see their performance tank this semester as they struggle to avoid the axe. These people are important to GULC for two reasons: 1) they are a cash cow (since no financial aid is offered to evening people) and 2) unlike the day school kids, they are actually employed… many by law firms. It’s also fair for GULC to recognize that the fact that these people are in a very different situation than those they’re competing against has become way more significant than it was ~2yrs ago.