UPDATE (3:07): The Florida Highway Patrol (FHP) just held a press conference. FHP announced that Tiger Woods was found “at fault” in his traffic accident, guilty of careless driving. The fine is $164 and four points on his driving record. This ends the Florida Highway Patrol’s investigation.
FHP determined “that there was insufficient evidence to issue a subpoena for any further evidence. There are no claims of domestic violence by any individual.”
Hmm… No evidence, you say? It looks like not talking was in fact the smart thing to do.
* * * * * * * * *
Lawyers, members of the bar, law students, and others with a smattering of legal training: we all have a duty to stand up and defend Tiger Woods’s decision to keep his mouth shut. The mainstream media has this story completely wrong, and it is up to us — those blessed with a basic understanding of criminal jurisprudence — to educate the public about why Tiger is staying silent. We must explain to our mothers and fathers and doormen and bodega owners that Tiger probably has to keep his mouth shut, in order to keep his wife out of jail.
I’ve explained elsewhere that we are looking at a potential domestic violence situation. If some of the reports are true, Elin Nordegren attacked her husband, allegedly threatening him with a golf club.
Now this is the part that laypeople seem to be having difficulty grasping. Just because Tiger is a man doesn’t mean he gets to decide whether or not his wife gets prosecuted for domestic violence. Criminal law doesn’t work that way. If the police find that Elin Nordegren assaulted Tiger, then this process gets taken out of Tiger’s hands. Right now, shutting up is the only thing Tiger can do if he wants to retain a modicum of control over the situation.
Especially in Florida.
More details, after the jump.
Hanna Rosin at Double X does an excellent job of explaining why domestic is something that they take very seriously down in Florida:
In 1991, Florida became one of many states to set up a pro-arrest policy in domestic-violence cases. For years, feminist advocates had complained that police treated domestic-violence cases as private, family matters and assumed the abused spouse would never follow through and press charges.
Beginning in the 1990s, laws began virtually to force the police to take action. The new statutes direct police to figure out who was the “primary aggressor” in a domestic dispute. They make a call based on a checklist (bruises, disparity of physical size), and then they make an arrest. Howls of protest from the abused spouse are to be ignored: “The decision to arrest and charge shall not require the consent of the victim or consideration of the relationship of the parties,” the Florida law reads.
Remember, this is a good law. It protects victims of domestic violence who are dissuaded from assisting the criminal prosecution of their abusers out of fear of retribution.
And (rightly) the door swings both ways. It doesn’t take into account the gender of the alleged attacker or victim. The police have a duty to investigate Elin Nordegren and pursue any criminal charges that may be relevant.
That Tiger might not want this to happen couldn’t matter less. It’s not his call.
Now, laypeople seem to be really struggling with this concept. Tiger Woods — the greatest golfer in the world, and a man — might not be able to stop his wife from going to jail for allegedly attacking him? Why doesn’t he just come clean and tell us what really happened?
Well, if the allegations about Elin Nordegren are true and Tiger wants to keep her out of jail, then his best response right now is to keep his mouth shut. Especially when cops are around. You lawyers know the drill: don’t talk, don’t answer questions, don’t cooperate, don’t agree, don’t speak English, don’t remember — for the love of God, just shut up!
Of course, this makes some people mad. On ESPN this morning, I heard one commentator say: “There are two courts, the court of law and the court of public opinion. While he might be doing the right legal thing, he’s doing the worst thing in the most important court.”
The most important court? Who are these people? It seems to me that the most important court is the one that sends your wife to the pokey.
But even the esteemed editor of our sister site Fashionista has taken the pro-yacking argument. Abby Gardner tells me that by staying silent, Tiger is hurting his brand name and his image. She says that from a public relations standpoint, Tiger should be out in front of this story.
I’d love to hear Tiger make this argument to Elin: “Hi honey. You know, even though you (allegedly) attacked me because I (allegedly) cheated on you, I can keep you out of jail. But I’ve decided against it. You see, it’s hurting my brand and my image to keep my mouth shut right now. Sorry. Don’t worry, I’ll find a really good (hot) babysitter to take care of the kids while you serve your time.”
Talking would be the dumbest thing Tiger can do right now, if he wants to help his wife. Lawyers understand this fact better than most. Please spread the word so I can watch SportsCenter without spitting up my coffee.
Tiger’s Best Reason To Lie [Double X]
Tiger Learns Domestic Violence Only Counts If You’re A Woman [True/Slant]
Earlier: Some Legal Angles on the Tiger Woods Story
QUACK!
NO ELIE PLEASE GO AWAY
If she gets jail time for assaulting him and they do end up getting divorced (not a surprise given he supposedly cheated on her), does this do anything to the percentage of his assets she would get? Anyone?
Why do black people always crash into things with their Escalades?
can someone explain the process of a private individual choosing to/not to “press charges?” For which crimes is it the aggrieved party’s decision?
- not a lawyer
Barack Obama should have them over for a beer on the lawn.
Why does Lat let Elie rant like this.
NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS, ELIE! Go back to posting about layoffs and attorneys committing criminal acts.
Where is Affirmative Walrus on this story? A black/asian man allegedly assaulted by a white woman!
Good for her, I say! Nothing like a golf club to the face to make your husband think twice about cheating on you with some skanky starfucker.
Mystal, go back to eating lunch and talking about your old firm Fatton Hoggs!
I normally hate Elie’s BS rants but I agree with most of this. Good work, didn’t know the Florida take on domestic abuse.
No, Elie. Tiger could certainly talk about what happened in “the court of public opinion” and then assert his spousal privilege and keep his mouth shut in “real court.”
Yes 7, yes. And a frank conversation about race. This like everything else is all about race. Here once again is a white person (Elin) oppressing an African-American victom. Speak truth to power. No justice no peace!
4 – Tiger is less than 25% black, dumbass.
6~
There is no such process. A criminal case is not John Victim v. Asshole Criminal. It is People of the state of Wherever (or Commonwealth or State) v. Asshole Defendant. The charging decision is made by the prosecutor who represents the People (or Commonwealth or State). To answer your second question, none. If you are attacked, go sue but you have zero say in whether or not someone is charged.
Yes, 13, and all of those statements would be magically inadmissible.
Yes 7, yes. And a frank conversation about race. This like everything else is all about race. Here once again is a white person (Elin) oppressing an African-American victom. Speak truth to power. No justice no peace!
Dear 6, lawyers are better than you. Go back to reading tmz for laypeople gossip.
Spitting up your coffee? Next time, only put two spoons of butter in it, Elie.
#15=racist
“I’ve explained elsewhere that we are potentially looking at domestic violence situation”
I’ve explained previously that we ARE looking at an inept author situation.
21 – why is 15 racist?
13 must be having a rough day. yeah, so maybe he doesnt have to testify, but there are admissible statements from anything he says publicly.
13 is obviously not a lawyer. Wow was that stupid.
4 assumes facts not in evidence, and is argumentative…
Elie, maybe you should take your own advice and shut up rather than speculating that Tiger’s wife committed an act of spousal abuse against him? Just a thought.
16 – so it seems cop dramas have been bullshitting viewers all these years. Thanks.
19 – I’ve read enough of these stories/comments to know how badly your chosen career blows. sucker.
-6
If Tiger spoke publicly, but refused to testify …
Would those public comments be admissible in court? Wouldn’t such public comments be inadmissible under the 6th Amendment’s Confrontation Clause? Elin wouldn’t have an opportunity to cross-examine Tiger as to them since he’s taking the privilege.
Well, I think that analysis would normally work (though I don’t practice in this area), but not sure how it plays out since they are married.
If I was Tiger, I would use that Nordegren’s face as tee and hit a bucket of balls to work off the stress. Then I would make sweet love to her.
If Tiger spoke publicly, but refused to testify …
Would those public comments be admissible in court? Wouldn’t such public comments be inadmissible under the 6th Amendment’s Confrontation Clause? Elin wouldn’t have an opportunity to cross-examine Tiger as to them since he’s taking the privilege.
Well, I think that analysis would normally work (though I don’t practice in this area), but not sure how it plays out since they are married.
24 – 13 is perhaps saying that Tiger could speak in the court of public opinion but lie (“she saved my life”). He could then still shut up in court (if there is a case even brought), and it wouldn’t matter if his lie came in under hearsay – in fact, it causes no perjury and tends to exhonorate. hole in one, right?
She should have aimed MUCH lower with those clubs.
23= racist and stupid
This post is another example of why non-lawyers scratch their heads as “legal” reasoning.
If Elie really did attack her husband, then she should be sent to jail. Period. That moral directive is why the law is written the way it is. Tiger shouldn’t be called on to “protect” his wife from the valid legal consequences, and ATL readers definitely shouldn’t be called upon to join him. Spare us any opining about children – an unstable parent is not beneficial to their upbringing, notwithstanding her considerable social rank.
This whole post is gob-smackingly sexist. I cannot imagine that ATL readership – no matter the level of legal training – would be working hard to assist a wife in “protecting” her husband-attacker from going to jail.
6 sounds significantly more intelligent than 13.
- not 6
Wow, Elie. I can tell you don’t hang out in Los Angeles much (or anyplace else where fortunes rise and fall based on public opinion). I have no idea how much Tiger’s endorsement contracts are currently worth, but I’m pretty sure they’re worth enough to make him think twice before saying anything that would jeopardize them (or in this case, not saying anything). OTOH, maybe he’s decided he’s rich enough to not worry about losing any sponsors by tarnishing his public image,which is exactly what he’s doing by keeping his mouth shut. BTW, I hadn’t given the car-wrecking incident much thought, but it occurred to me this morning that no one smashes the rear window of an SUV to get someone out of said vehicle when the driver and/or passenger doors are undamaged and possibly unlocked. She wasn’t trying to rescue his ass, she was chasing his SUV down the driveway, golf club in hand, and smashed the rear window, causing him to veer into the fire hydrant and then hit the tree.
Would you ever say that the best thing a woman could do after getting smacked would be to keep her mouth shut?
Besides, given that keeping his mouth shut under these circumstances amounts to an acknowledgement that his wife hit him. So, even if he clams up, we still know what happened.
Somewhere out there, there’s a poster with an attractive woman, and the caption is, “There’s at least one man in this world who’s tired of her sh1t.” It’s a useful reminder to those of us who drool over Kash and other kuties.
29 you dont practice in this area because you are likely a 1L who just took crim pro.
What does Elin tell a Tiger with two black eyes?
Nothing, she already told him twice!
/Try the Veal.
34 = Aryan Brotherhood
Who dat?
Drew dat!
KNEW DAT!
GEAUX SAINTS!
Seriously, if the gold club were in the other hand, so to speak, and Tiger had been the alleged assailant, wouldn’t the world be screaming for the law to work as intended — i.e., that he automatically go to jail regardless of his wife’s wishes? As a criminal defense lawyer, I understand the idea of not speaking to the authorities when your liberty is at stake, but the whole point of the Fla DV law is to prevent abused spouses from covering up for their abusers. Why should the sex of the victim matter?
sorry. Golf club
In my country, if a woman ever attacked a man’s personal camel with a club, she would be stoned to death and then eaten with a little couscous and perhaps some fresh dates.
ShaFeef
Bravo, Elie. Way to (a) assume the story is in fact one of domestic violence, and (b) not only applaud the putative victim’s decision to cover up that abuse, but (c) argue that it is a moral imperative for lawyers to defend the righteousness and necessity of doing so. Battered spouses everywhere surely applaud your brave, noble stand on their behalf.
How about this: Stay out of it. If its not a case of domestic violence, then this kind of idle speculation is indefensible, even for a legal “tabloid”. If it truly is domestic violence and he’s made the decision to cover it up and move forward with his marriage, your only options are to criticize that as setting a bad example for battered spouses everywhere, or stay out of it. Since your instincts hardly ever run to the serious thoughtful side, I’d say the latter is your way to go.
I will pay 4 million dollars for Kashmir Hill to pose in lingerie for my website.
-Medium Size Pornographer
And then there was another woman!!!
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebritynews/news/second-woman-claims-affair-with-tiger-woods-2009112
If the roles were reversed, I wonder if Fatass McGee here would be telling a woman to keep quiet after her husband hit her with a golf club to keep her from jail.
All this discussion of whether the public comments would be admissible is irrelevant as to whether she would be charged. Not to mention, with the cuts on his face among other circumstancial evidence that may exist, who knows if they’d even need his testimony to convict her if they chose to pursue prosecution.
Whatever happened, he’s likely doing the right thing if he wants to keep his family together. I doubt many (if any) sponsors will drop Tiger because he was quiet about this. The fewer details that are given out, the faster this gets forgotten by the majority of the public consumers as well.
Hold on a second there, 6. 16’s comment while accurate could be clarified a little bit.
Let’s say you are assaulted by X. You can “press charges” by going to the police and/or DA and asking the prosecutor to prosecute. However, it is ultimately the DA’s decision whether that prosecution will happen. To “press charges” is to “ask and hope that the prosecutor will file a criminal case against X.”
But, the victim in a case cannot prevent the prosecutor from prosecuting. If the DA’s office wants to prosecute, the victim has no say. However, the victim can refuse to testify or just not cooperate with the police, which will make prosecution much more difficult in some cases.
All this discussion of whether the public comments would be admissible is irrelevant as to whether she would be charged. Not to mention, with the cuts on his face among other circumstancial evidence that may exist, who knows if they’d even need his testimony to convict her if they chose to pursue prosecution.
Whatever happened, he’s likely doing the right thing if he wants to keep his family together. I doubt many (if any) sponsors will drop Tiger because he was quiet about this. The fewer details that are given out, the faster this gets forgotten by the majority of the public consumers as well.
Hanna Rosin at Double X does an excellent job of explaining why domestic . . . is something that
48 — Damn! Another skanky looking white girl! Can’t Tiger show the sisters some love?
I realize this is politically incorrect, but the fact that she (probably) chased his cheating ass down the street while wielding a golf club makes her by far my favorite celebrity spouse. Rock on, Viking Girl.
Thanks, 51. Very helpful.
- 6
Tiger must get that girl into jail for attempted murder. Yet, we hear some bloody rumbles about the stupid Florida State Trooper intending to charge him instead of this murderous white girl. If this is not an institutionalised racism what is?
3 makes a v. interesting point.
I liked this post the first time, when I read on the WSJ law blog four hours earlier – come on, Elie. You’re not fooling anybody
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/12/01/on-tiger-and-domestic-violence-law-in-florida/
If this was a domestic violence assault, then Tiger is the victim. What, exactly, does he have to prove to the court of public opinion? Do people seriously believe that a crime victim should be harangued as if he has some ’splainin’ to do? Disgusting.
I understand Tiger’s desire to stay mum to protect his wife — most victims of domestic abuse try to do this. This is something we should feel sympathy for. I’m not going to blast him for doing what 95% of abuse victims do. But let’s not pretend that we all need to jump on the “protect Elin” bandwagon. That this is a common response does not mean this is the desired response from a public policy standpoint — it isn’t.
some in the media are trying to coerce a statement from Tiger by insisting that his “brand” will be tarnished by silence. it’s a counterintuitive, self-serving position to take: “If you don’t talk to us, your career will suffer.”
Tiger, you are no Iron Eagle.
Chappy Sinclair
Scooped again:
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2009/12/minirecruiting.html
59 = Susanna
Hey look, more ATL posts linking to posts on other sites by ATL writers! The circle jerk continues!
Tiger shuts up and Elin stays out of prison, gets to keep the kids, etc. In turn she agrees not to file for divorce and he gets to keep his $$$$$$$.
I’d say that’s a fair trade.
It’s the bitches that’ll getches
Why does Tiger have such a goddam cheap home ($2.4 million)? Partners in L.A. firms have homes twice that much, and Tiger’s earned over a billion in his career.
The media keeps calling this home a “mansion.” Only in an undesirable, land-locked flyover area can you buy a mansion for $2.4 million.
Good post, Elie.
On alleged double standards:
The policy of prosecuting domestic violence crimes even when the victim does not want to reflects a concern that in the typical case, the victim is a relatively powerless woman who can’t (or believes she can’t) leave her abusive husband – because she doesn’t have the financial means to do so, or because she believe he would track her down and hurt her, or both.
Does anybody think that applies here? That TIger Woods is financially dependent upon Elin, or that he would be scared for his life if he tried to leave her? Keeping quiet, both to protect the family and in the hopes that the story will dies if there is nothing to keep it alive, may be the best move.
On the other hand, if more bimbos keep coming out of the woodwork, the keeping quiet strategy is not going to prevent his image from getting tarnished.
At least so far it doesn’t look like the Arkansas state troopers are involved, but stay tuned.
all of the girls whom tiger allegedly cheater with are waayy less hot than his wife.
i guess it’s hugh grant syndrome.
Cheers, 35. This post is painfully wrongheaded. What if it were the other way:
Tiger’s wife: Oh, honey, I know I deserved to be beaten up with a golf club because I cheated on you. Don’t you worry, I won’t tell the police a thing.
Tiger: You’re the best, babe.
Maybe the lights were off in the house, she did not realize it was him because he wasn’t smiling, and therefore thought he was a burglar.
Elie, while everything you said is true, and I agree, you should clarify that even if she is charged she will NOT serve ANY time in jail. She would be arrested, maybe be in a cell and then get bailed out within the hour. If she did assault him, I assume she is a first time offender, and while Florida’s mandatory arrest law is gender neutral, dont pretend that courts are gender neutral when sentencing domestic assaults. Women can still beat the shit out of their husbands and get nothing more than probation. TIger Woods’ wife would not do any jail time even if found guilty of domestic assault.
Elie,
You’re a piece of shit. 24 is right — perhaps you should shut your mouth rather than accusing Tiger’s wife of assaulting him. You post describes the “assault” as fact when, in reality, police couldn’t even show probable cause to get a search warrant. You’re such a douche.
He just pulled this stunt so he wouldn’t have to play in a golf tourney that wasn’t a major. Lazy s.o.b.
Phil Mickelson
I am so disgusted by you Elie. Every lay person knows what you are preaching here. Don’t think everyone else is an idiot.
48: All that article says is that there was a “fling”, which is far from news if you weren’t married. Otherwise, it would have said an “affair”
Mystal, everyone knows walruses can’t play golf. Get over yourself.
29 the problem with your analysis is that it may appear to be a straight forward application of Crawford, witnessing spouse makes comments then exerts spousal incompetence at trial, many states do not allow spousal incompetence for serious crimes including murder, child abuse, domestic abuse…
don’t practice in the are either, but that is my take
Good points, Elie, but about 9 paragraphs too long.
If he were smart, though, he’d rat out the psycho bitch, send her to jail, take the lions share of the marital assets in a divorce, give her custody of the kid, throw her a child support check every month, then return to bachelorhood and pull obscene amounts of wool.
75, ever heard of party admission?
And Elie, that was a lucid, intelligent, well-thought-out article. Overruled.
Has anyone else noticed that Elie is only one letter away from being Tiger’s wife?
Well, one letter and 300 pounds….
The worst thing from a public relations standpoint is for Tiger Woods to talk. If his wife goes to jail and goes on trial then all the dirty laundry gets aired – the mistress(es), the money, everything. The best thing he can do in both courts is to shut up, have another kid and take your wife and kids on every single tour stop while never laying eyes on another woman.
Nothing to gain by saying a word here.
“If some of the reports are true…”
Big “if” to base an entire rant on, but whatever.
83: Tiger wouldn’t be a party. Florida would.
Fail.
“snarfle… snarfle…snarfle,” said the WALRUS!
75 = spectacularly epic fail
45 (ShaFeef) FTW.
Isn’t the spousal testimony privilege waived if you disclose the information to a 3rd party (e.g. the media)?
Also, (and I imagine this would be an issue of state law) does the spousal testimony privilege apply to crimes between the spouses?
Must be difficult arguing against ESPN anonymous commenters, MYSTTTAL.
I can’t wait till you take on youtube commenters next.
“If the roles were reversed . . ”
. . who cares? The roles aren’t reversed. If you have a point, make it apply to this situation or don’t make it.
And if the roles were reversed, it would and SHOULD be different. Except when a deadly weapon is involved, spousal abuse by a woman is completely different than by a man. The man might be unwilling to speak up because of embarrassment, but certainly not out of fear for his physical well-being. In fact, I’ll bet the biggest reason that “abused husbands” stay away from the cops is LACK of concern about their physical well-being.
I look forward to being called a sexist pig in the comments that follow.
- guy who was once attacked by his girlfriend, dumped her, and wasn’t intimated from from fucking her roommate a week later
What is this court of public opinion crap, the sponsors of professional athletes can not afford to drop all of the athletes rumored to have been involved in domestic disputes involving violence. If anything, Tiger is likely to emerge more popular because it suggests that he is capable of provoking emotion if not showing it himself. People prefer their heroes to be fallible.
Elie, I usually support you, but the notion that potential victims of domestic violence should keep their mouths shut so they can retain control over the situation is both silly and dangerous. (Not a combination you see every day.)
While a DA can in theory charge a defendant even against the wishes of the victim, in practice, the DA in many places will not actually pursue charges without the cooperation of the victim. This is both because it is difficult logistically to proceed without the victim’s cooperation, there may not be a public interest in doing so, and unwanted prosecution may discourage future victims from calling law enforcement. Of course there are cases when the victim doesn’t want to cooperate our of fear of retribution or economic reasons, and in these cases a prosecutor may want to proceed anyway.
Regarding the mandatory arrest policy, the problem with such policies is that they may discourage the victim from calling law enforcement until the situation reaches a genuine crisis – e.g. eminent bodily injury. Law enforcement may be able to diffuse the situation better if they were called in earlier. Such policies can also discourage neighbors or friends from alerting law enforcement for similar reasons. They may not want to see their neighbor arrested, especially if it turned out that the matter was not that serious. Perhaps a better policy would require one party to leave the situation for a period of time (e.g. the next 24 hours), but not necessarily be arrested.
I’m a successful personal injury partner at a midsize/largish firm in Orlando. I live about four blocks from tiger. I’ve never met him in person. I have a big case coming to trial, and like always I have trouble sleeping thinking about all the aspects and whether I have covered my bases well enough. I often take late night walks in my usually quiet neighborhood when I can’t sleep. Wouldn’t you know it, but on the night in question I happened to be rounding the block at Tiger’s house when I hear yelling and screaming. It is extremely uncommon to hear such a thing in my neighborhood at that time of night. As such, with my curoisity aroused, I continued towards Tiger’s house and saw a Escalade attempt to leave the driveway. I saw a tall blonde with a golf club run up behind the car and break the rear window. The Escalade accelerated quickly and ran into a fire hydrant. The car quickly backed up and ran into a tree, and was stuck. I quickly approached the Escalade and offered my assistance. Sure enough it was Tiger, and needless to say I was shocked at the events I had witnessed. Tiger started going on and on about that “crazy bitch” and my mind began wandering, thinking about whether to call the police. Tiger noticed, and he challenged whether I was paying attention to him and whether I cared about his little “situation”. I immediatly instructed Tiger to look at me when I talk to you boy! I’ve fucking spent 22 years serving this country! 22 years! I’ve seen boys blown out of the sky over the pacific, their guts strewn out over rice paddies in Vietnam! So believe me when I say I give a shit!
75 -
WRONG WRONG WRONG
READ YOU LAWBOOKS
Anything a defendant says out of court is admissible in court.
51: Thank you. Not sure why others are having difficulty with those concepts.
That’s right…95…I am dangerous
- Maverick
97 – FTW!
CHECK YOU BLASIANS
83/89 are idiots. The hypothetical case would be Florida v. Elin Nordegren Woods. Tiger would not be a party. His out of court accusations are no more admissible than the out of court statements of any other victim/complaining witness. Unless he took the stand, they’re not evidence.
Doesn’t mean 13 is not an idiot. Florida doesn’t recognize a spousal privilege as to acts. It only recognizes a privilege for confidential communications, but even there exempts criminal cases alleging violence by one spouse against hte other. So if Tiger states publicly any information tending to suggest his wife battered him, she can be charged and he can be forced to repeat those statements under oath. If he refuses, he could in theory be held in contempt.
Its all a moot point however, they’re not charging anyone.
HOW DOES A FISH GET CAUGHT? HE OPENS HIS MOUTH!!! Go tiger, go tiger…….smart man.
…and not just keep his wife out of jail, but keep the mom of his children out of jail. I am sure that would be on his mind as well.
95: just because the state or a special interest group labels someone a victim doesn’t mean that the someone must accept that designation. there’s nothing silly or dangerous about tiger protecting his wife from a witch hunt prosecution to find her guilty of violating some nebulous law seeking to regulate aggression between lovers.
btw- can you please try to put some forethought into your comments? i understand that you feel compelled to discredit Elie every chance you get as you strive to maintain, desperately, a (false) sense of racial superiority. but your posts do more to prove the null hypothesis than anything Elie has ever written
83 — party admission? hahaha. get back to studying your Evidence outline, you’ll need it for your exam. FAIL.
98 for you to be correct, Tiger would have to be the defendant.
13
Prior inconsistent statement on cross. Witness not available exception. Evidence was like 6 years ago and I remember that shit. Get studying finals season is upon you.
This post really just translates for white people/lawyers what the streets have told me my whole life:
“Fuck snitches”
I find it ironic that the author believes in the mandatory arrest policy, yet also undermines that policy by advocating that victims stay silent. A better policy would be to make arrest discretionary, so the victim does not have to make the decision on whether to stay silent.
Also, the victim could be forced to testify as spousal privileges don’t apply in situations of spousal violence. In reality, the decision of FHP to close the investigation after only issuing a minor traffic citation reflects the desire of officers to ignore the mandatory arrest policy in cases where it isn’t needed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/sports/golf/02woods.html
FYI, this “case” is over. Also – I’m sorry, I just can’t help myself – did people REALLY believe that what happened here was Elin beating the shit out of Woods with a 9-iron and Woods storming out of the house into his Escalade and then into a fire hydrant?
What the hell is the matter with you? Does that sound plausible? Who came up with this story anyway?
Woods wasn’t keeping silent because he was “protecting his wife” from prosecution. He is a notoriously private public figure (see his Yacht named “Pricacy”) who was probably more than a little embarrassed and not ready to show his bloodied face to the ungrateful media. There’s a plausible story for you.
98-
EPIC FAIL. YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG!
Under no circumstances would Tiger be a Defendant in any part of this situation, so the “rule” you state has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion.
No one cares what Wood’s wife has to say, all this is discussing the implications of any statements made by TIGER, he is not, nor could he be, a defendant in this case.
In short, 98, you are a moron.
Regarding the update, ironically getting 4 points for hitting that tree still leaves him 2 under par.
i’ll tell you what, i was playing tiger woods on my wii last night and, you wouldn’t believe it, there was actually a minigame called “whack the SUV.”
Yeah, i know, terrible jokes, but i can’t help myself.
68 – I too have been wondering about the reported value of Tiger’s home being only $2.4 million…it could be an erroneous report…also, he’s building some huge mansion on the Atlantic Coast of Florida, not sure when they’re moving there
One doesn’t get “points” for hitting things in golf; rather, one’s score is measured in “strokes,” either in absolute terms or relative to par.
Great post!
Good thing his wife isn’t 3500 sq ft.
79 – reading comprehension fail
Yes 114, very nice.
Apparently Tiger is still driving into the trees…
This is the only time I will out-drive Tiger…
Looks like he is still in the Woods…
I’ll be here all week
115 — he’s had the Isleworth house since he was single. After they got married he bought a $48 million compound on one of those exclusive island communities (Fisher Island or Jupiter Island, something like that)
121 – then why are they staying so often at Isleworth if the compound (I think you’re right, it’s one of those islands) is finished?
6,
To Supplement 16 slightly.
What 16 said is more or less correct. However, more often than not, prosecutors will honor the request of the victim that the suspect not be criminally charged. The reason for this is simply that prosecuting criminals takes time and money and it’s not a good use of that prosecuting someone for a crime that the victim doesn’t even care about.
Domestic violence crimes are the one big exception to this. Not only because of statutes and possible “fears of retribution” but because it’s pretty much typical battered spouse syndrome for the battered party to call the cops one day and the next day be in love with their spouse again and insist it was all a huge misunderstanding.
We even occasionally ran into the problem of a spouse refusing to testify altogether. That can just as quickly destroy a case as not talking in the first place. It works because we’re understandably reluctant to charge a battered spouse with contempt for refusing to testify against their batterer.
GREAT post Elie. This issue got me so wound up that I nearly drove Jeanine crazy talking about it all the time.
Our basic constitutional rights – forget penumbras, substantive due process, and the like, I’m talking about our bedrock RIGHTS – guarantee that we shall not be compelled to be witnesses against ourselves, and that we don’t have to talk to police if we don’t want to. We don’t have to provide a reason why.
Bravo, Tiger. But remember that keeping your wife out of jail doesn’t mean you can’t take her back to Bitch School.
28 – ever watch Law & Order?
28 – ever watch Law & Order?
This is not a compelling article. If a woman had been attacked by her husband, should she choose not to hold her husband accountable? If so, you are admitting that there is a lot more nuance in the morality of domestic abuse than most people accept at the moment…
122 — I don’t think it is finished. One popular rumor is that Elin torched one of the rooms after learning that Tiger had screwed some girl in it.
Here’s the bottom line:
Husband who beats up his wife = dirtbag
Wife who beats up her husband = totally hot
Quit pretending like a double standard doesn’t make sense here.
In NYS, careless driving is zero points and no insurance surcharge. I smell a cover up.
Mmmmm. Tiger’s wife. I’d love to bogey her holes.
wow 128, that’s such a great rumor
– 122
112, that story makes a lot more sense than a married man leaving his compound at 2:30 a.m., wrecking his vehicle in a manner that is incomprehensible, and a Swedish supermodel utilizing a golf club to rescue him from his vehicle.
113 -
98 here. Sure he could become a defendant. He hit a tree, he hit a fire hydrant. Not very likely, but it could happen. So, the “rule” I cited is absolutely 100% correct, just as 108 pointed out – if Tiger was a defendant, anything he said out of court is admissible. So, 113, chill out, go back to your doc review and eat some idiot stew for dinner tonight.
113 -
98 here. Sure he could become a defendant. He hit a tree, he hit a fire hydrant. Not very likely, but it could happen. So, the “rule” I cited is absolutely 100% correct, just as 108 pointed out – if Tiger was a defendant, anything he said out of court is admissible. So, 113, chill out, go back to your doc review and eat some idiot stew for dinner tonight.
This rivals Elie’s great “Good Samaritan Liability” theory in terms of legal analysis.
Didn’t everyone want Rihanna to publicly admit what Chris Brown did to her? How is this situation any different, except for the fact that the (possible) victim is male?
And hey, looky here 113 -
Tiger gets a citations, so, huh, I guess he is a defendant. Funny how that works out. Eat it, dumbass.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/12/01/florida-troopers-go-after-tiger-aol/?icid=main|main|dl2|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmz.com%2F2009%2F12%2F01%2Fflorida-troopers-go-after-tiger-aol%2F
-98
What a shitty story. A internet tabloid reports that Tiger’s wife beat him up with a golf club and you, along with a bunch of other idiots, repeat these unsubstantiated rumors as if they were facts. I know this is a tabloid and all, but you can do better than this. There are a million explanations more probable than a small nordic wife beating up her professional athlete husband with a golf club yet you assume these rumors must be true because someone reported them on the internet.
I think someone posted somewhere on the internet that Elie gets beat up by his wife. Maybe you should report that too.
133 – No, not really. People wreck cars in incomprehensible ways all the time. It was in fact 2:30 AM, it’s true, but many people leave their homes at such an hour, especially if they’ve been arguing with a spouse. Maybe Tiger and Elin were in a heated argument, and Tiger, in his anger or despair, had an accident. Maybe he got frustrated with crying kids and decided to take a drive but he was really tired and drowsy from pain meds. There are so many reasons why this could have happened, and plenty of evidence that suggests that this is exactly what happened (see the NYT article).
Now, let’s think about the (completely unsupported by any evidence whatsoever) story being peddled by tabloids and now this blog. How often does a “Sweedish super model” start clubbing her superstar boyfriend with his own golf clubs? That is a far more fantastical scene than the one I have just described. Get real. This is one of those drummed up non-stories that no one wants to sit down and really think about.
I guess what I don’t understand is: where did that story come from? Where is the evidence to support that beyond Tiger’s silence – which, incidentally, I don’t think is evidence of anything at all, given his history.
-112
@16 – you are a moron
An individual does have a say in whether charges are filed because if they are the only witness then the individual has to choose to testify for any criminal action by the state (i.e., press charges).
Domestic violence is not something you make lighthearted remarks about.
O. J. Simpson
It was the clubbing he got for the clubbing he gave.
The fact that the back window was broken instead of a side one is easily explained. She failed to keep her left arm straight during the back swing.
106: You’re an idiot. Someone who is on the receiving end of domestic violence is the “victim.” That’s not some crazy social science theory; it’s a fact based on who’s fist is hitting who’s flesh. I don’t know whether Tiger’s the victim in this case, but Elie’s post is a broad argument that the victim of domestic abuse should keep quiet so that the cops don’t take over. That’s just dumb, and frankly bad advice to true victims of domestic violence, for whom keeping quiet just means continuing to be beaten.
As for racial superiority, I have no idea what you’re talking about because there was no mention of race in my post and you don’t know what race I am. Get a life, please.
–95
I disagree with the assertion that him not speaking out about ‘the truth’, whatever that may be, hurts his ‘brand’.
If it came out that he cheated on his wife, she was actually brutally beating him, he was eating vikes out of a pez despenser, and then she goes to jail etc., all of that mess could potentially damage his brand more.
His endorsers (Nike, Buick, Accenture, about 50 others) do not want their investment to look like a philandering, battered pussy with a crazy incarcerated wife. Remember, many of these companies BET THE FARM on paying this Tiger millions for a few TV ads. The companies want to keep all of the mess in the tabloids, and let the public have their doubts about Tiger until he wins another Major and all is forgiven.
-Marketing Secure
“IF” he wants to help his wife…
There are two things going on here: 1) Tiger was drunk. The police, corrupt as they are, passed off Tiger’s drunkness as a result of the accident and failed to investigate it further, preferring to dismiss it entirely.
2) Either a) Tiger’s wife hit the windshield on his SUV because she was pissed, and Tiger drove off. (Drunk.) Then he crashed; or b) Tiger’s door couldn’t open, his wife panicked when she realized she either didn’t know where spare keys were or there were none, and the best she could do was retrieve a golf club from the garage and bash in his trunk window to get at him.
The overarching theme of my case, however: Tiger was drunk.
CASE CLOSED.
148: why stop there? my gut tells me he raped that other woman too and paid her to shut up about it. that’s why his wife was so pissed.
you and i should press charges. we’ll beat some party admissions out of him with a 3 iron.
When I first heard the story, I thought they had a fight. We have all been there. Lots of yelling, maybe sweeping/throwing things but not at people, slamming things. Ripshit mad. You do storm out. It might have been a real doozy if it happened, but that is not abuse. That is marriage when something bad/hurtful comes up. If I saw tabloids that said my husband was cheating, I would react that way.
Having lived with golfers my whole life, clubs are all over the house. They can’t help it (or the divots in the carpets). You need them so you can grab one when you need it. “Need” can be a practice swing, a weirdo in your yard, to move a log in the fire or the need for a cane (putters are great), all of which came up in my home. Her need was to get the guy out of the car.
It all comes down to choice: (1) do you run down your enraged wife who has jumped in front of your car in an attempt to stop you from leaving and is madly waving a golf club in hand, or (2) do you sharply veer off the road to avoid hitting said enraged wife?
Elie … VINDICATED.
What’s really crazy about all of this is that anybody would be surprised that Tiger was cheating. Look at the NBA where a lot of the players are married but still have women in just about every city. It’s just part of being a pro athlete.
Also, why is it that these rich and powerful men end up cheating with such skanky women. You’re TIGER FUCKING WOODS! If you’re going to step out on Elin it should be with a supermodel.
103 = fail.
Read 95 again: he, for some idiotic reason, claims to usually be an Elie booster
sorry, that should be 106 = fail
155 = fail
If there is a spouse with scratch-like wounds not consistent with the fender-bender given as an explanation, plus hearsay evidence of a marital spat, that is enough for PC on DV. PC is a low standard–enough for a reasonable person to find a fair probability of a crime under the totality of the circumstances. Bottom line: if we are all talking about the situation as if this is probably DV, and that Tiger is smart to keep his mouth shut, then there is PC. Still, the police may not arrest if they think they won’t get enough for a conviction. And without the testimony of the victim, they won’t get a DV conviction unless they have witnesses to an actual assault. Tiger doesn’t want to alienate his wife right now by testifying against her. She’s already going to get half. Why make it 60%?
75 – if Tiger were called to the stand as a witness against his wife, which he may be depending on whether he consents and the privilege rules in the state, his hearsay might be admissible for its truth, even if not under oath, as prior inconsistent statements if he denies those facts on the stand, depending on the state again.
157 – stop, just stop. Save that comment and re-read it after you’ve been in practice for a few years. So much wrong with that.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2753973/Waitress-Jaimee-Grubbs-claims-affair-with-Tiger-Woods.html
The Jaimee girl is butt ugly. While there can be a legion of explanations, two dominant ones stick out that would best account for Tiger’s transgressions: 1, wifey doesn’t give head/gives shitty head or 2, wifey isn’t giving Tiger any.
137/138-
Seriously? Tiger wouldn’t be a defendant in his wife’s domestic violence case. He is a defendant in his “careless driving” case. You can’t use the party admission rule to get his statement in for the purpose of his wife’s case because he is not a party to that proceeding. Even then you would need some sort of theory of conspiracy in order for it to be admissible against her as co-conspirator acting within the scope of the conspiracy.
Can you imagine if the prosecution was allowed to use the statement of any person who ever had been prosecuted as an “admission of a party opponent?” It would make nonsense of the rationale for the rule – that the statement of the person being prosecuted should be admitted because the defendant said it, and is therefore stuck with it.
Whoops, that last comment should be acerbically directed at 133/134, not 137/138.
-160
can we get back to the ‘brand management’ issue? I believe ’standing by your [wo]man’ is a better longterm strategy on this front …
And I’m also a lawyer, and imho the entire spousal privilege stuff has been upended in these new domestic violence laws, so silence is prudence.
Tiger must remain silent because, as a black male, he (1) got his ass wooped by his white woman, who (2) is now going to take him to the cleaners.
The hissing sound you’re hearing is the deflation of the value of his right to publicity. Think OJ, except that Nicole fought back successfully.