The spate of associate deferrals that rippled throughout Biglaw last year was truly unique. There was no historical template for what would happen when firms decided to essentially skip a recruiting class by sending their would-be first years out on paid vacations to public interest organizations.
The experiment — which for a lot of associates and firms is still ongoing — has already taught us a few things. Deferring associates clogs up the recruiting pipeline. Deferring associates is more expensive than making smart hiring decisions. New recruits, shocking as it may be to some, would rather start work than be given money take a vacation.
But there are other questions that still need to be answered. We don’t know if deferred associates taking public interest work have gained any useful experience. We obviously don’t know if all of these deferred associates will actually be able to start when their year is up.
And we don’t know if having a one-year, paid mercenary force of deferred recent law grads is a good thing for public interest organizations.
The ABA Journal and the New York Law Journal report on some stats today that start to answer some of these questions. The statistics point to a significant culture gap between deferred associates and public interest attorneys.
The New York City Bar polled deferred associates. The top line results show, well, sadness from the deferred associates. The New York Law Journal reports:
Nearly three-quarters of deferred associates in New York who placed with public interest groups developed a stronger interest in pro bono work because of the experience, according to a report released last week by the New York City Bar.
But the bar group also found that while the deferred attorneys were generally satisfied with the training they received, they expressed a low satisfaction level with their integration into public interest groups, and a frustration with the lack of communication from their law firms about their start dates.
The New York City Bar report puts the culture gap this way:
Issues of workplace culture gaps between the employees of the public interest placements and the incoming deferred associates were identified at the April 2009 City Bar Roundtable as a possible issue. The lower satisfaction rating with “colleagues” identified in the online survey may be reflective of this. A lower satisfaction rating with “integration within the office” may also reflect the culture gap between those law graduates who pursue careers at large law firms in contrast to the smaller group working in public interest employment. The fact that the “legal work” satisfaction rating was slightly lower than the “clients” satisfaction rating may reflect a slow start or disinterest in the work that was not in an area of law in which the deferred associate thought he or she would be practicing upon graduation.
We saw this coming. Back in April, Kash reported on a deferred associate job fair. At the time, some of the attendees had this to say about getting deferred from their Biglaw job:
“It sucks,” said one 3L from a New York law school contemplating deferral at a V20 firm (shockingly, none of the students or lawyers with whom we spoke wanted to be outed on ATL). “I’m pretty comfortable that I’ll have a job in 2011, but I’m not sure.”
Said another 3L from a New Jersey law school: “It sucks. I found out about the deferral on ATL the day before hearing from my firm. Class work has fallen to the wayside as I scramble to apply to jobs… I didn’t go to law school and incur $100k worth of debt because I wanted to take time off and write a novel.”
It’s not all doom and gloom. Most deferred associates reported to the New York City Bar that they received good training at public interest organizations. The ABA Journal reports:
On the positive side, 92 percent of the deferred associates responding to the poll said they would recommend their placement to a future deferred associate. Eighty-nine percent thought the skills they had acquired would help in their future career, and 73 percent said the placement had increased their interest in pro bono.
Of course, deferred associates aren’t really in the best position to know if the skills they’ve learned translate into Biglaw practice at all. We’ll have to wait till these people start showing up at their firms to see if Biglaw partners find them more useful than other new associates straight out of law school.
And we don’t know about the view from the people who had to work with deferred associates. Obviously, cash-strapped public interest organizations found ways to use the extra man-hours. But did they enjoy working with slightly depressed first years who didn’t want to be there and were waiting for their first opportunity to get out and “start” their career? I can’t imagine public interest lifers had an easy time dealing with deferred associates who felt forced into a public interest furlough.
Deferring associates is an experiment. It’s a work in progress. And we’ll need to do more statistics and studies before we truly know if this experiment worked.
Deferred Associates Evaluate Their Experience in Public Interest Jobs [New York Law Journal]
Poll Suggests Culture Gap Between Deferred Associates, Public Interest Lawyers [ABA Journal]
CITY BAR JUSTICE CENTER REPORT ON THE DEFERRED ASSOCIATE LAW EXTERN SUPPORT PROJECT [New York City Bar]
Earlier: Dreams of Biglaw Deferred (Or, The Scene at New Jersey’s First Deferred Associates Public Interest Job Fair)
Mystal, you SUK.
Why do black Barbies sell for less than white Barbies at Walmart?
“We obviously don’t if all of these deferred associates will actually be able to start when their year is up.”
Um, I believe this sentence is missing a “don’t”.
Plus, could this post be longer? This is a blog, not a Times article.
“We obviously don’t if all of these deferred associates will actually be able to start when their year is up.”
I think you meant to insert “know” between “don’t” and “if.”
HTH
@2 – Because they are Black and angry.
Wait until the reunion happy hours where the deferred associates are expected to pay for all the drinks.
As someone who work in the public interest sector I have noticed a major increase in resumes I have received from 1Ls and 2Ls who judging from their past experience and corporate cover letters have obviously no genuine interest in doing public interest as a career, but since the private summer associate market dried up for them they are now all rushing into public interest like the little unimaginative lemmings they are. If you are one of these sad souls, do yourself a favor and do not even bother.
Summer internships are different than a one-year deferment, since so much time is spent training the student, with the hopes that if they are good they will be kept on after graduation. Public interest is not a dumping ground for the leftovers of the bloated biglaw factories that catered to bubble era industries. Ones dedication to public interest will be adduced from a resume that is filled with years of experiences demonstrating sacrifice, social justice, and serving under resourced communities.
Note to those who think they recently found their inner public interest jesus, having organized your sorority charity drive every year does not make you qualified to do anything besides giving blow jobs to fratards who probably are now also trying to brandish their credentials in criminal defense cause they helped their frat bro get out a DUI.
Good luck losers!
“Well have to wait till these people start showing up at their firms to see if their Biglaw partners find them more useful than other new associates straight out of law school.”
I think you meant “We’ll” – not “Well.”
HTH
I’m a deferred associate. I’m not getting any worthwhile experience at all. Thx for the memories.
To 7: The Lady doth protest too much, methinks.
To 7: The Lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Thank you 7 for doing such an excellent job of explaining the low satisfaction ratings deferred associates have for their new coworkers!
Mo money mo problems.
law suit of the day:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/lohan_such_baby_jVdQWABj9z0MgXzCv1Nh1O
Public interest deferrals will NOT gain any experience that is useful in big law. I moved from small law to big law years ago. In small law, I took and defended depositions, argued motions, and took two jury trials to verdict (slip and falls – real small law). Moved to big law where I thought this would be helpful experience, and was told very early on, this is not the way we do things. I was put straight into drudge work, and learned how they did things. After 2 years, I figured out that my big law employers did not have any clue about how to take or defend a dep, how to argue a motion, or how to pick a jury, but they could write great briefs and review docs like kings. But it was clear that my prior experience was useless to them.
Public interest deferrals probably learned a lot of useful stuff, but it wont help them at all when they are reviewing docs for the next 2 years. And they might have picked up some bad habits like cost effectiveness.
I have won numerous pro bono awards from my firm over the years. I enjoyed public interest work. But it is not even close to the high you feel when you win a huge federal lawsuit. Hootie whoo, my friends. Hootie whoo.
– Associate Emeritus
I am Elie Fysting myself, right now!
I am in agreement with 7. Public Interest and Biglaw are like oil and water.
7 is full of shit. I did public interest after my 1L year and sometime after graduating law school. it does not take “years of experience” but mainly involves former biglaw hacks or Ivy misfits, both who are socially awkward and genuinely lazy. Also, public interest groups are not necessarily always fighting the good fight, considering they represent clients who often are lazy and trying to take advantage of the system. The viewpoint from a public interest firm is so one-sided it’s ridiculous, and these attorneys actually believe in their own bullshit, as envinced by 7’s comment.
7 also said “[o]nes dedication to public interest will be adduced from a resume that is filled with years of experiences demonstrating sacrifice, social justice, and serving under resourced communities.”
You’re basically saying everyone first needs to be a social worker and then a lawyer before doing your sacred work. Hint: you don’t do that much for society and you help the poor with marginal gains.
7 – “blowjobs to fratards.” When I read this phrase I immediately thought, “Wow, this person probably spent their whole life demonstrating sacrifice, social justice, and serving under resourced communities”
can we get some info on class of 2010 start dates???
I would like to see a Venn (sp?) diagram of the folks who paid their own way through law school and that went into public interest work.
Actually 7, I spent 2 1/2 years in BigLaw and moved to Public Interest. The office loves my work ethic and thinks that I do great work despite my background.
Also, chances are I’ve promoted up through the chain of command with greater speed and success than you have. Now, if thats a source of tension or embarrassment for you…well, I dont give a shit.
Public interest law is full of people like 7 who don’t support themselves, have never done so and think that they are god’s gift to the poor and better than anyone who would have ever worked for a large law firm. Also, amusingly, the typo “serving under resourced communities” pretty accurately describes the background of most people like 7.
These unhappy deferreds give the rest of us a bad name. Don’t expect to be integrated; integrate yourself. All it takes is a little common sense and office politics.
Pusillanimous douchebags.
It would be great to know whether my V20 is giving me a deferral stipend so I know what to tell potential public interest employers. I don’t know if I need to get paid or if I can work for free and live off a stipend. My V20 has left me hanging.
7 – Are you serious? Are you F’in serious? I don’t believe you are truly a public interest attorney but, if you are, you might as well go to biglaw b/c you sound as miserable as many associates are – at least get the paycheck to compensate for your misery.
have not done much public interest work (except 50 hours of pro bono as a summer associate) but I hope to one day do some after my loans are paid off. I hope to God you aren’t the one interviewing me (unless you trash my resume b/c it is not caked in the blood that I have bled serving humanity) when that day comes because the public will be losing a good lawyer.
Furthermore, why so much resentment towards BigLaw or those who hope to join BigLaw one day but serve the public this summer? Isn’t the point of public interest to serve the mother F’in public? Not to serve your ego and let you sleep well at night knowing that you are better than all those greedy graduates who, heaven forbid, want a high paycheck to compensate for there 1K monthly debt payment? Who cares what the motive for helping people as long as the benefit to society actually materializes? If I go to church to meet hot christian chicks (b/c I know they are more likely to be stable mothers with good child bearing hips) and happen to find God in the process, who cares what my original motive was – if the end result is a good thing then its all good. (disclaimer: I am no way endorsing the view that the ends always justify the means; but in the public interest and hot christian chicks examples, I believe they do).
You have got to be the worst voice for public interest; you sound just as miserable and selfish as those biglaw associates (present and future) you clearly despise.
SEEE YAAAAA!!!!
-JB
I am a deferred associate working public interest and it has gone excellent. In fact, last week I did my first legit trial, first chair. Granted, the issue was minor, but it was still exciting and a great experience.
This may not translate well into BigLaw, but what will. At least, I am working hard at improving myself as a lawyer.
As for the public interest lawyers, I seem to be very well received in the office. Everyone seems to enjoy a little lighter case load now that I am here.
Experience actually practicing law? Most likely. Experience relevant being to a mindless document review monkey? Probably not.
p.s.
Ironic that 7 is just as much of a resume whore as BigLaw. 7 cums when he sees amnesty international (no offense to amnesty international; I would not want to arouse 7 either, you were just my example) just as Cravath does when he/she/it/behemoth sees Harvard Law Review.
SEEEEE YAAAAAA again
I know this post is off topic, but I’m going to say it anyway.
When are people going to realize that the Biglaw landscape is FOREVER CHANGED? And that many of the underlying problems with Biglaw are more apparent than ever? Just ask class of 2009 associates who have started at their firms since January. With few exceptions, they’re not billing any hours! There’s not enough work to go around! In fact, many mid-level associates are hoarding hours because they too are struggling to meet yearly billing requirements. In turn, first-years aren’t receiving any meaningful assignments or on-the-job training; and more importantly, they’re at risk of being fired in the next several months. How much longer will firms continue to dish out $3,000/week to associates who aren’t bringing in any money? Class of 2010 associates — if they ever receive a start date — will experience the same trend. Class of 2011 folks will have an even worse problem: most of them will not receive Biglaw offers in the first place.
For most people, the dream of Biglaw has vanished. And it’s not coming back. Once people start to realize this, the market will adjust. Fewer people will go to law school, supply will decrease, and demand will even out. Otherwise, our profession is headed for the toilet.
A little subject-verb agreement goes a long way. The first sentence should read: “The spate of associate deferrals that rippled throughout Biglaw last year WAS truly unique. ” The subject of the sentence is “spate,” not “associates.”
Why will white women cheat on their white boyfriend for a black man?
“New recruits, shocking as it may be to some, would rather start work than be given money take a vacation.”
Missing a word between “money” and “take”
@22,
Here’s your Venn diagram: OO
12: +1
7: What is so miserable about your life that you have to be such a tool to other people? Law students applying for public interest summers far predates the biglaw summer associate cutbacks…wasn’t it always fairly common for 1Ls to work at govt or nonprofits for their first summer? And most of the time this was NOT with the intention that the org. would keep them on permanently, because the orgs were very upfront about not having the money to hire anyone after graduation, unless the grads brought their own funding in the form of, e.g., a Skadden Fellowship.
12: +1
7: What is so miserable about your life that you have to be such a tool to other people? Law students applying for public interest summers far predates the biglaw summer associate cutbacks…wasn’t it always fairly common for 1Ls to work at govt or nonprofits for their first summer? And most of the time this was NOT with the intention that the org. would keep them on permanently, because the orgs were very upfront about not having the money to hire anyone after graduation, unless the grads brought their own funding in the form of, e.g., a Skadden Fellowship.
7: Good job being a classist tool. Not everyone has the opportunity to dedicate years to public service before entering law school. Some of us went to law school to try to break into the middle class and eventually hope to help others. It’s good to know that this will be impossible because people like yourself will hold our impoverished childhoods against us.
I’m really surprised in my experience how underutilized I have been in my role. I thought non-profits were buried in work and desperate to have more people, but it turns out they can’t manage workflow and utilize an extra full time employee. A little disappointing.
7, you seem far too bitter to be a credible source of information. Thank you for portraying all public interest attorneys in such a terrible light. Jerk.
As you have so aptly demonstrated, arrogance and elitism is a character flaw, unrelated to employment or academic pedigree.
39, you are surprised that not-for-profits have no clue how to manage legal staff?
You’re walking around blind without a cane pal.
Seconding 21 & 26!
16: “I enjoyed public interest work. But it is not even close to the high you feel when you win a huge federal lawsuit.”
Seriously? Because if you’re in public interest, you can’t possibly win a huge federal lawsuit? Are you an idiot?
39, public interest organizations — at least the larger ones — are quite adept at managing their legal staff. Public interest offices — again, at least the larger ones — provide their staff attorneys with months of training before allowing them to represent clients in court, and even then it’s with supervision. The deferred associates have come into these offices without the benefit of training and are ultimately more of a drain on the organization’s already limited resources. Why pull a supervisor from working with an actual staff attorney who will be sticking around for the next three years vs. having that supervisor shadowing the deferred associate who will only be around for a couple of months?
So while it may seem that the public interest offices are unable to manage their legal staff, the reality is they’re too busy managing their actual staff to dedicate the time to babysitting deferred associates.
Our office had a couple of deferred associates and with the nature of our practice (very trial heavy), it was a waste of the deferreds’ time as well as ours. We welcomed them into our office and they were nice folks, but could only handle minimal work since they were untrained. I’m sure there are other practice areas where their skills would be more useful (like doing public benefit hearings where you don’t even need a JD to appear), but in reality we treated these guys like overpaid paralegals.
It’s a trade: You save some time by giving the deferred associate some bitch work to do like making copies, assembling exhibits, or whatever menial task you need done. In return, you take some of the time you saved and either let the deferred associate come to court with you or give them some other kind of training.
33– you want to be cuckolded, don’t you?
The deferred associates I’ve met are lazy. They take 3 day weekends all the time, never come in before 10:30 AM and then shop online.
I know they aren’t getting paid, but it doesn’t exactly endear them to the people who actually care about doing the job…
46 – no, you want to be cuckolded. Probably doesn’t happen to you very often.
-33
As a current student who did public interest before law school and plans to return to it later–I dislike deferred associates, though I’m sure the clients appreciate extra people doing the work. Deferred associated are generally uncommitted to the work. When I interviewed law student interns and applicants for full time positions at my public interest position, it was vital that people showed an interest not just in working with poor people, but also in our specific area of the law. With a deferred associate, there’s just not that sort of selection process. It just sucks that it’s currently impossible to get a paid public interest job. Not only do the public interest employers have little money with which to hire, but why hire a brand new atty for pay when you can just get a deferred associate to work for free? Sure, the deferred associate will leave and probably isn’t as committed to the work, but to a public interest organization struggling for money, I understand the decision. I just, you can imagine, want a job.
Both of my deferred associates have been nothing short of fantastic. I only wish I could be a more active part of ensuring they get their start date notices soon. — Public Interest Boss
Number 7 is a student, does not work in public interest law and cant get a job in it and is bitter. Nobody over the age of 23 uses words like fratard.