Talking About Star Wars With Cass Sunstein

A long time ago, in a legal market far, far away, I had the opportunity to chat with Professor Cass Sunstein about his new book on the lessons of Star Wars, The World According To Star Wars (affiliate link). Then, as Yoda might say, began the Galactic Salary Wars did.

Now that some of the dust has settled, here’s my short interview with Professor Sunstein about his book, and the most pressing question he skipped over: “Did Han shoot first?”

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Joe: To what extent do you use Star Wars in your teaching? The book shows how easily it can illustrate all sorts of concepts and how it’s nearly universally understood. Is this a go-to source for analogy (or issue-spotters), or do you try to keep a lid on your fandom on the job?

Sunstein: Hardly any Star Wars in class! Just a tiny bit last year, while I was doing the book, but only when discussions of the Administrative Procedure Act started to flag, as (amazingly) they did once in a while. I also taught a small, informal reading course on accident and serendipity in law and politics, and we had a few references to Star Wars there.

Joe: One point I made in my review was that the constitutional discussion could have gone on much longer for us law geeks. Did you have even more material there than you left out to keep the book from alienating mainstream audiences?

Sunstein: Yes, definitely. I cut that chapter way, way down. There’s a longer discussion in a review I did in The New Rambler, and an even longer one in an essay on the Social Science Research Network, but a lot is on the cutting room floor. Maybe we’ll put it back in an Enhanced Edition? [Links added by ATL]

Joe: Who shot first? You bracketed it in the book, but it’s time to resolve it.

Sunstein: Han shot first. (Han. Shot. First.)

Joe: Ewoks. Pro or con? I was surprised they didn’t get more coverage in the book especially in the discussion of rebellion since they track more of a religious (with their cargo cult-style golden god) than political rebellion.

Sunstein: Con. Don’t love ’em. A bit too cutesy. But in my book, George Lucas can do no wrong, so we are ultimately okay with too cutesy. You’re right to say that the discussion of rebellion could have engaged them. (But they’re too cutesy!)

Joe: How excited are you for Rogue One? Any thoughts on how a non-Jedi-centric film will impact the universe?

Sunstein: So so excited! Huge event for the world. Like the Olympics, kind of. Even if it’s bad, it will be great. In terms of its impact, I think the back story is infinitely expandable, so we’ll get a bigger sense of the Star Wars universe. There’s a ton of potential there.

Joe: As you say, at a broad level the movies exalt democracy over dictatorships. But the Old Republic is also undone by its inability to accomplish anything (literally sending dire emergencies to committees). It’s hard to reconcile this simultaneous negativity toward both democracy as ineffectual and dictatorship as oppressive. With Leia seemingly abandoning the New Republic over the same gripes of fecklessness, is the Star Wars universe really offering a terminally cynical view of government — in a sense a permanent rebellion? And if so, isn’t that the sort of pop culture notion that contributes to “everyone who disagrees with me is a fascist” discourse?

Sunstein: You can see it another way. Self-government is a work in progress; we have to work for it, fight for it, every day. Or: These are movies, and a movie where democracy is working well, and everything is fine, is not going to have much energy.

I see Star Wars as the opposite of “everyone who disagrees with me is a fascist.” The Dark Side is bad, sure, but even the greatest Jedi (Luke) goes there, and a horrible Sith (Vader!) turns out to be the one who restores balance to the force. So the best of us can go Dark, and the worst of us can go Light. That’s an inspiring (and true) thought. It’s bipartisan, in the deepest sense.

Joe: Indeed, the Old Republic’s constituent members seemed to maintain their own systems of government — very Articles of Confederation, if not UN — and the only system of government we ever see in these movies that “works” is one where a planet, for some reason, elects pre-pubescent girls to act as temporary monarchs. Personally I always thought this was indicative of Lucas’s inability to resolve the democracy vs. dictatorship conundrum in his own head — good government is electing a term-limited dictator! — but I’m interested to know your thoughts on it. Because it is glaring that an anti-fascist piece makes the model of good government a pair of princesses.

Sunstein: You might want to see Lucas as strong proponent of republics and self-government, but as someone who is aware of history and human nature, and who well knows that they’re vulnerable to would-be emperors. The saga offers a warning, and even though it’s kind of a series of cartoons, it gets at something deep. The warning is real but it shouldn’t be seen as an objection to democracy or as a refusal to take sides as between democracy and dictatorship. Lucas understands Carl Schmitt (even if he’s never read him) but he’s very much against him.

Joe: For fun, I quipped earlier about the dormant commerce clause and the Naboo embargo but if Naboo really did act locally to disrupt trade routes, shouldn’t the Galactic Senate have been all over them? I mean, come on, you can’t discriminate against trade routes like that!

Sunstein: Agree! I believe strongly in free trade. See https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/inforeg/speeches/eliminating-red-tape-through-international-regulatory-cooperation.pdf

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So there you have it. The Trade Federation was right and the whole chain of events in the prequels never would have happened if the Galactic Supreme Court could have tackled this trade dispute. Confirm Chancellor Valorum’s pick now!

Thanks to Professor Sunstein for taking the time to chat with us.

Now back to the Cravath Clone Wars.

Earlier: What Jar Jar Can Teach Us About Free Speech

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Joe Patrice is an editor at Above the Law and co-host of Thinking Like A Lawyer. Feel free to email any tips, questions, or comments. Follow him on Twitter if you’re interested in law, politics, and a healthy dose of college sports news.