'Goliath': An Interview With Lawyer And Writer Jonathan Shapiro
A former federal prosecutor and Kirkland & Ellis alum talks about his latest TV project.
(via Wikimedia)
Last year, as part of my book tour for Supreme Ambitions (affiliate link), I participated in a great event at the Pasadena courthouse of the Ninth Circuit. I joined two other lawyer-writers, Robert Rotstein and Jonathan Shapiro, to talk about lawyering in fact and fiction. (You can watch the panel on YouTube, starting around the 2:26:00 mark.)
Jonathan Shapiro — the author of two books, Deadly Force: A Lizzie Scott Novel and Lawyers, Liars, and the Art of Storytelling (affiliate links) — stole the show. I like to think that all three of us were interesting and entertaining, but Shapiro was hilarious. He had lots of great stories based on 14 years writing and producing television shows like The Blacklist, Life, Boston Legal, and The Practice.
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And now Shapiro can add another credit to his IMDb page: Amazon’s new legal drama Goliath, which he co-created with longtime collaborator David E. Kelley. Writing in these pages, our resident culture critic Harry Graff praised the show as “very entertaining,” giving special props to star Billy Bob Thornton for his “excellent” performance.
I recently caught up with Jonathan Shapiro to discuss the show. Here’s a (lightly edited and condensed) write-up of our conversation.
DL: Congratulations on Goliath, and on all the great buzz the show has been generating. For our readers who have been too busy billing hours to keep abreast of cultural developments, can you give us a quick sense of what the show is about?
JS: David E. Kelley and I wanted to do a show about American law in the 21st century, looking at the state of play, the motivations of those involved in the adversarial system, the pressure they are under and how it affects them, and what it says about us as a country. Kelley and I are old lawyers who love the law and our brothers and sisters in the profession. We wanted to take a look at what’s different today compared to when we both got out of law school. There’s a lot of great new shows looking at criminal cases. We wanted to explore character issues through a complex civil case involving the industrial-military complex.
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DL: Lawyers and law students sometimes turn up their noses at legal television shows and movies because the Hollywood version of the profession often bears no resemblance to the real thing. But you, as a former federal prosecutor and of counsel at Kirkland & Ellis, have some real “street cred” as a lawyer as well as a writer. How realistic would he you say Goliath is?
JS: We’re not handing out CLE credit. It’s a show, not a documentary. The goal is to be entertaining and compelling, but our hope is that what we write also provokes and illuminates. Lawyers and law students are absolutely right that we do have to compress and take some liberties, including casting amazing actors to portray lawyers and judges. But we do our best to keep it as real and accurate as possible. Art is a lie that tells the truth, as the saying goes. I think we capture the truth of Biglaw today and what it demands and takes from the people involved. Kelley and I have written a number of law shows together, and we’ve always tried to be true to both the spirit and the letter of the law.
Jonathan Shapiro
DL: You’ve said in prior interviews that the law firm depicted in Goliath is not Kirkland & Ellis. But did your time at K&E, or other experiences in your legal career, inform your work on the show?
To paraphrase Tolstoy, all happy law firms are alike; each unhappy law firm is unhappy in its own way. Cooper & McBride is an unhappy firm, unhappy in its own way, reflecting the wounds of its leadership. Our show is not an American Lawyer profile, but I do think it accurately portrays darker aspects of Biglaw’s relationship with its clients. Kirkland & Ellis is, as far as I could see, a happy firm, like other happy firms. But it was interesting to return to practice. The size and scope of Biglaw, with billion-dollar firms, with their obvious advantages over smaller outfits, technological advances, the availability of Big Data, how rare trials have become… it all informed what we did.
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DL: Here at Above the Law, we love celebrities, but our “celebrities” tend to be lawyers and judges. Your show features a number of bona fide Hollywood actors, including Billy Bob Thornton, William Hurt, and Maria Bello. Any fun tidbits you can share with us about these stars or the experience of working with them?
JS: Maria went to Villanova, cares deeply about politics, knows more about Philadelphia than anyone I’ve ever met, and should run for office there one day. Talked to William about Body Heat and the art of playing a lawyer who thinks he’s smarter than he is. He’s a Juilliard-trained actor whose commitment to his craft is impressive. As for Billy Bob, the raves he’s gotten for the show describe him perfectly: one called him “the redneck Bogart,” another called him the “Olivier of Arkansas.” He’s an autodidact, a genius, a superb conversationalist, and knows more about film history, 1970s television, and baseball trivia than any man alive. I could talk to all three of them for hours.
DL: So the show became available on Amazon earlier this month — and I suspect some people have already binge-watched all the episodes. Now that viewers and critics are starting to chime in, can you share some of your favorite responses to the show so far?
Judge Alex Kozinski, who plays Judge Alex Kozinski, has been kind enough to share a slew of well-deserved and glowing reviews for his performance. People literally stop me in the street to say how much they love the show. This includes a neighbor who almost ran me down in her car yesterday to say so. The reviews have been terrific, which is gratifying, but even the few that weren’t great offered some laughs — such as the one that said the show is based in Florida (God forbid).
Amazon’s reach is amazing. I’ve heard from folks who love it in England, Africa, but especially Indiana… oh, how they love the show in Indiana.
DL: And many other places as well. Congrats again, and we look forward to the next season!
Earlier: Prior ATL coverage of Golaith
David Lat is the founder and managing editor of Above the Law and the author of Supreme Ambitions: A Novel. You can connect with David on Twitter (@DavidLat), LinkedIn, and Facebook, and you can reach him by email at dlat@abovethelaw.com.
